Doctor Who II

[Werthead]

I think the parallel universe thing this season has been a bit of a red herring, as Chibnall said in an interview that wasn't the answer. In addition, travel between the universes is almost impossible now the Time Lords are gone (again), but no doubt that's something that can be forgotten about.

Lots of very grumpy Who fans online at the moment because Mary Shelley, who is in next week's episode met the Eighth Doctor and even travelled with him as a companion in the Big Finish audio plays, and the next episode looks set to contradict them. That's gone down badly, especially after Moffat indicated the Big Finish plays were canon with some references to them during his run on the show.

[Werthead]

That's interesting. Ian Gelder (aka Kevan Lannister) played both Zellin in this episode, but was also the voice of the Rags in Ghost Monument, the creatures that first mentioned the Timeless Child. I wonder if that was a coincidence or foreshadowing of something.

[polishgenius]

23 hours ago, williamjm said:

She may well not know how to send them out of the Universe, and even if she could could she prevent them from returning. 

 

In any case the Doctor has some history of locking enemies up eternally. Family of blood for example. And while she may have trapped the Daleks and Cybermen in Doomsday outside of the universe rather than locked them up, the practical difference isn't great.

Anyway, was a pretty good episode, better than last year's 'weird one', It Takes You Away. Though nowhere near as weird.

It very much feels like they're looking to go for a full (and darker, more contientious, because this is created in large part by the Doctor not knowing how to talk to her friends) version of the companion ending Moffatt set up for the Ponds and then bottled. Though I wouldn't be shocked if they then returned for the special and resolved (but stayed leaving) in a more friendly way.

[The Mother of The Others]

That girl in a planet crusher was a great start to a character, as was the getting tricked into unleashing a primal evil.   Then she got out and was like, "I'm evil.  Say, let's BE evil, mr. Hubby Guy."   Evil husband: "Yessss.  Evil.  Let's!"      And then back in the box.    I feel like I could have done more with that.   Like a new Maisie type presence in the universe.   A modern pandora twist, in which her world had shoved HER into the box in retribution, but now once freed she'd do some really interesting things, an arc with perspective no other being would have, etc.

[Werthead]

Strongest episode this season so far, I think. An effective haunted house horror story with a reasonable few twists.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Strongest episode this season so far, I think. An effective haunted house horror story with a reasonable few twists.

I agree it was good. It did seem to be a fitting ending, whatever the risks may be of things going horribly wrong it isn't really the Doctor's way to give up on someone's life even if there could be severe consequences further down the line. I thought Jodie Whittaker did well with one of the moments we sometimes see from the Doctor where they can let some arrogance slip through. I thought it made better use of the historical characters and integrating them into the plotlines than some other episodes have.

[john]

Agreed on all counts. Good episode and a nice little scene of the Doctor making her fateful choice (one of the few actions of such significance we’ve seen in Chibnall’s run, which seems to want to dial down the god like saviour aspect of the Doctor).

I thought they’d found a way to have the Doctor win regardless and not give the lone cyberman what he wanted, which I thought was cool. But I suppose it didn’t suffer much from the failure in the end. I doubt Captain Jack would be very surprised at how things turned out.

[polishgenius]

Good episode, though the ending would have hit harder if they'd sold the consequences of giving the lone cyberman what it wants a little better beforehand.

I like that what happened to Bill played into the Doctor's reaction to this episode, and it's a neat move that the disaster in the finale will have been a direct consequence of a decision she made.

[dog-days]

Haven't felt moved to watch this series since I was only moderately interested in the first episode and giving up in the second. A period episode with historical characters wouldn't normally draw me, but I decided to give it a go after seeing positive responses in a lot of quarters.

It was a good episode. I felt it clicked in a way others in the Whittaker/Chibnall era haven't. Maxine Alderton is credited as the writer, and by managing the big Team Tardis cast alongside a group of characters for the episode smartly and coherently, she did what other writers have really struggled to do. Having a set of iconic historical characters may have helped there in sketching out the personalities quickly, but she was also pretty deft in handling the others - Yaz got a moment with Clairemont, Ryan (still find him annoying as hell) got to bond with Mary, and Graham just had some solid lines and was a good presence. 

I loved the design of Ashok. To me it was reminiscent of Darth Vader in Rebels. 

On a sad note, the real William Shelley was known as Wilmouse, and died when he was three of a fever. 

Shelley himself of course drowned in a sailing accident, which the Doctor shows him a vision of. 

[Werthead]

Excellent episode. Bit of a Tom Baker vibe at the start, especially with the Cybermen and drones just flat-out murdering people, and then a really offbeat vibe through the whole Irish thing (fun factoid: this is the first ever episode of Doctor Who to be set or partially set on the island of Ireland, which seems bonkers after 56 years) and a more harder-edged SF thing going on with the Cybership. Plus the guy playing the mad Cyberleader is really, really good.

The cliffhanger ending was really cool and at the moment it looks like the spoiler leak from a few months ago might have been completely (or at least partially) bogus. The direction they really appear to be going in might be even more bananas.

Spoiler

Humans are possibly the ancestors of the Gallifreyans? The kid in Ireland was the "timeless child" first incarnation of the Master?

 

[Denvek]

I'm pretty sure Brendan is the Timeless Child, but he's probably also someone else, which could be:

1. The Doctor (and he'll regenerate into Ruth at the end of next week)
2. The Master
3. The Cyber Leader
4. The old man at the Boundary

[Filippa Eilhart]

So Brendan doesn't die, but he gets old while nobody else does?

[john]

8 hours ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So Brendan doesn't die, but he gets old while nobody else does?

 

Spoiler

Neither of which are exactly traits of timelords. To me the timeless child, if that’s what Brendan is, looks just like the pre season spoilers said - some kind of immortal being kept in some kind of prison, possibly powering all time lord technology.

I like the idea of Gallifreyans being descended from humanity, that’d definitely be the fundamental change everyone is banging on about.

 

[polishgenius]

22 hours ago, Werthead said:

Plus the guy playing the mad Cyberleader is really, really good. 

Yeah, the Lone Cyberman could have been mad cheesy but it's made by the delivery being so good.


I have nooo idea what all the pieces are implying.

Brendan seems like the opposite of the Timeless Child if he ages but other people don't...  also I've read a couple recaps and it's odd how many people seem to think he died when they clearly said they were 'just' wiping his memories.

Actually, new pet incomplete crackpot theory I've just extraoplated from a couple things others have said online: some or all Time Lord children live a life/their first life/multiple lives disguised under a chameleon arch (in Brendan's case, his retirement carriage clock) to perform some service for Gallifrey before being brought out of that and having their memories wiped and sent on their way (or looped back in if these are the Timeless Children).

[john]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brendan seems like the opposite of the Timeless Child if he ages but other people don't...  also I've read a couple recaps and it's odd how many people seem to think he died when they clearly said they were 'just' wiping his memories.

 

 

Actually, new pet incomplete crackpot theory I've just extraoplated from a couple things others have said online: some or all Time Lord children live a life/their first life/multiple lives disguised under a chameleon arch (in Brendan's case, his retirement carriage clock) to perform some service for Gallifrey before being brought out of that and having their memories wiped and sent on their way (or looped back in if these are the Timeless Children).

 

 

 

Spoiler

The impression I got from that final Brendan scene was that they were resetting the scenario and he was about to go back to being a baby and repeat his life and his service again.

 

[Denvek]

14 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

  Hide contents

Brendan seems like the opposite of the Timeless Child if he ages but other people don't...  also I've read a couple recaps and it's odd how many people seem to think he died when they clearly said they were 'just' wiping his memories.

 

 

 

Spoiler

I didn't think it was everyone not aging, just the two people who were wiping his memories at the end - his dad and the Garda boss.

 

[Filippa Eilhart]

his mum wasn't ageing either, there was a scene with them talking when he was grown up

[Werthead]

I think we can just call this a Spoiler Thread. I think you have to accept people are going to be discussing the latest episode in the thread on an ongoing series.

Fairly strong episode, although it was a bit lame how easily they eliminated the Lone Cyberman. The actor was really good and the Cybermen have lacked a genuinely threatening representative figure before. Cyber-Locutus (or Cyber-Davros, although he wasn't their creator) was an idea that worked much better than expected and didn't deserve to play second-fiddle to the Master, despite Sacha Dhawan really raising his game in this episode.

The "big revelations" weren't too bad. They confirmed some of the what the pre-series spoilers were saying: the Time Lords derived regeneration technology from the Timeless Child, a being from another dimension capable of infinite regenerations. The Timeless Child is the Doctor and had countless lives working for the Division, the Time Lords' top secret intelligence agency (presumably the Celestial Intervention Agency, changing the name because the CIA gag was funny in 1976 but not in 2020), before he quit/retired and had all his/her memories "redacted" and begin regenerated into a young child. Presumably the Doctor's parents as seen in Listen were really his foster parents (who may not have even known his origin).

Not as Gallifrey-shattering as it first appears (the Doctor having pre-Hartnell lives was hinted at in a 1976 episode) but it does reconcile a few odd bits of canon from over the years and paves the way for further revelations and mysteries further down the line.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Does it explain why Ruth’s tardis appears as a police box? Surely if she predates Hartnell, its a different tardis? And would she even be calling herself the Doctor?

Unless Ruth is part of season 6b.

I should have avoided this thread until Insee the episode tomorrlw :/

 

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Not as Gallifrey-shattering as it first appears

 

I like that the Doctor basically no-sold the shatteringness of the reaction too. Like it's often a problem with this sort of thing that the revelation is never as vast or horrible as hinted, and that would have been the case here, so the Doctor going 'well it's a lot but why would it break me? I'm not you, Master' just made that work.

What's the deal with Brendan though? Was that entire plotline essentially just a metaphor with her mind/the Master's messages trying to tell her the real story through the filter?

Eta: also worth noting that unless I missed something the question of where the previous humans who went through the boundary disappeared to was never answered so it's still not impossible that, in a roundabout way, the Time Lords are still descendants of humanity as it was speculated/feared before this episode- if those guys went into another universe, developed the regeneration stuff, then she came back through another rift.