mormont Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said: Well look at the numbers of viewers going from Series 11 ep 1 to Series 12 ep 10. Compare that to how many people watched Journey's End and the Stolen Earth in 2008, or even the huge drop in numbers that watched the End of Time 2 to the most recent new years day episodes. Toys are not selling like they did in Tennant and Smith's eras and the dvds aren't selling either. Netflix UK never even added the chibnall episodes (although I admit that may well be due to the move to britbox and it's likely new episodes were not allowed on any service other than iPlayer). And finally, why are Chibnall and Whittaker leaving after just 3 series each (with far fewer episodes than previous runs of the show? I get that Whittaker may feel that three years is enough but wouldn't Chibnall relish the chance to write for a new doctor? That has to be a dream for any showrunner and the last two got 2 each (more if you count specials) but they are both going. The show's unpopularity has to be part of that. And I'm not saying anyone is wrong. Everyone has the right to think and watch whatever they want but there are problems that are clear to see. What's the evidence that any of this is due to widespread audience dissatisfaction with a continuity retcon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Yeah have to agree that viewership losses are probably not down to a lack of continuity with what was said in the 60s, or about continuity at all. The shows dismal ratings are more likely because I think the show has become tired and stale , simple as that. I don’t think as many people care any more and that has been a gradual process, with a number of mis steps adding up to a general feeling of poor quality. I do think the shows recent preoccupation with trying to make obvious political points and coming across as a bit preachy in the way the BBC has a habit of doing, doesn’t help, but the real issue is just that it’s all a bit boring now. There was a time where I was genuinely excited for new episodes because the show felt like it was actually doing something unique. I haven’t had that sense in a while, a long while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 I fucking loved The Timeless Child. But then again, I loved the movie with McGann and Eric Roberts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 24 minutes ago, Heartofice said: I do think the shows recent preoccupation with trying to make obvious political points and coming across as a bit preachy in the way the BBC has a habit of doing, doesn’t help, but the real issue is just that it’s all a bit boring now. The messaging was spot on, and needed today more than ever. But at times it was so heavy-handed it was embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, Spockydog said: The messaging was spot on, and needed today more than ever. But at times it was so heavy-handed it was embarrassing. Definitely heavy handed, but I’m not sure the mythical nazis in our midst are going to think ‘oh good points doctor who, I’ll completely change my way of thinking’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Just now, Heartofice said: Definitely heavy handed, but I’m not sure the mythical nazis in our midst are going to think ‘oh good points doctor who, I’ll completely change my way of thinking’. Nobody is born a racist. Let's get 'em when they're young, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 16 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Nobody is born a racist. Let's get 'em when they're young, eh? I mean if you think that is the role of Doctor Who thats up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Good grief. Save it for the politics thread, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 I'm not sure there's any more evidence for Who losing ratings because of its heavy-handed political point making than there is for the continuity issue. Again, Who has always been inclined to be heavy-handed at times. To the extent that the show is in decline - and that point is arguable - there's a huge amount of confirmation bias in people's explanations, and again that's very typical for big sci-fi franchises in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 The preachiness Id say is a contributing factor but mostly because it seems to contribute to the show being more boring in general. Overall though I think is a bit of fatigue around doctor who, you can see with each season a bump in the first couple of episodes and then a drop off in viewing numbers. Understandable as people are interested to see what’s different, but when realise there isn’t anything standing out then they don’t bother to make any effort to come back. Also worth mentioning that the viewing environment has been changing since the show came back. Now there is a ton of competition in the sci fi market and endless options. Maybe the viewing numbers Who is attracting now are all they could really expect from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 I can't speak for anyone else personally, but Who becoming political is what made me and my friend give up on the show. The two of us use to enjoy watching it together week after week, but after Jody's first season we were just burnt out. I mean I hate Trump, like most sane people hear, but even I got tired of the show mocking him after awhile. I just wanted fun space adventures with the Doctor, not a reminder how my current world at the time sucked. Another friend of mine who watched Jody's second season told me all sorts of crazy things, like the show creating a Trump stand in character and them retconning the entire universe, something about the Doctor always having been a woman, a whole bunch of incarnations we never saw before, making the Master evil (again) and not giving a reason why, and killing off all the time lords (again). I literally told my friend, that if even half of the stuff you told me was true, I'm out for good, because it was honestly starting to make my heard hurt after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlydragon Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 1 hour ago, sifth said: I can't speak for anyone else personally, but Who becoming political is what made me and my friend give up on the show. The two of us use to enjoy watching it together week after week, but after Jody's first season we were just burnt out. I mean I hate Trump, like most sane people hear, but even I got tired of the show mocking him after awhile. I just wanted fun space adventures with the Doctor, not a reminder how my current world at the time sucked. Another friend of mine who watched Jody's second season told me all sorts of crazy things, like the show creating a Trump stand in character and them retconning the entire universe, something about the Doctor always having been a woman, a whole bunch of incarnations we never saw before, making the Master evil (again) and not giving a reason why, and killing off all the time lords (again). I literally told my friend, that if even half of the stuff you told me was true, I'm out for good, because it was honestly starting to make my heard hurt after a while. Yeah. That's pretty much what's happened. And as others have said. The preachiness is a joke. Having her practically look at the camera and tell us how we are gonna destroy the planet unless we change is not what a lot of people want to see in doctor who. orphan 55 is easily one of the worse episodes ever made. It fits right up there with the likes of Fear Her, The Idiots' Lantern, In the forest of the night and Rosa for worst episode ever award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlydragon Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 4 hours ago, mormont said: What's the evidence that any of this is due to widespread audience dissatisfaction with a continuity retcon? That's just a part of it. Audience fatigue in the show going back to Capaldi's era, the direction the show has gone since Chibnall took over (although elements of that were there in series 10), and yes the retcon of turning the doctor into a god and destroying over 50 years of continuity are all reasons why this has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 1 hour ago, sifth said: I can't speak for anyone else personally, but Who becoming political is what made me and my friend give up on the show. Wow, you might be older than I thought if you gave up on the show in the 1960s! It's amazing how familiar all this griping sounds if you're familiar with the comics scene. Complaining about continuity in media that was, when it started, barely bothered with continuity because nobody involved expected it to last long enough for those things to matter. Blaming perceived unpopularity on your personal dislikes driving away consumers. Grumbling about heavy-handedness in a medium that has frequently been extremely heavy-handed. Talking about how it just recently became political when anyone familiar with it understands that it has always told political stories. The tick boxes are just about complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 They never had 50 years of continuity! They made it up as they went along. The regeneration limit was unofficially ignored by Davies. Cartmel (in the 80’s) had started to amend continuity by beginning to revealthe Doctor to have been the reincarnation of a very early Time Lord called the Other, but that was only fully explored by a now-defunct novel. There are still hints at the Doctor being around for a billion years in the last series before it was ‘rested’. Nothing about the Timeless Child overwrites anythkng really. There were already questions in-show about whether Time Lord history had been re-written by those in charge. The origin of regeneration had never really been explored, and the Doctor is hardly a god. Hell, 10 spoke as if he would go on regenerating indefinitely (barring being actually killed outright). He survived a dalek blast long enough to regenerate into ... himself (another ‘retcon’?)! A Moffat or Davies alternate name for the Doctor was the Lonely God. In the Five Doctors they tried to retcon Susan being thr Doctor’s granddaughter by having her not call him Grandfather, but luckily the actress protested. As for the preachiness, watch some of the 70’s stuff; environmentalism, anti-facism, anti-extremism... it’s just become more overt now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 28 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said: and Rosa for worst episode ever Rosa isn't even vaguely close to the worst episode ever and suggesting that it is honestly makes me question your priorities. Being so obsessed by keeping politics out of mah entertainment (that as others have pointed out was political from the off anyway) that you describe an okay-as-worst historical as that to try to make your point is... well, it's not helping your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said: As for the preachiness, watch some of the 70’s stuff; environmentalism, anti-facism, anti-extremism... it’s just become more overt now. If you rewatch those episodes, I'm pretty confident you'd find them to be at least as overt as anything done in recent years. They may seem less so in the memory because they have a hefty dose of nostalgia to distract from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 5 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Rosa isn't even vaguely close to the worst episode ever and suggesting that it is honestly makes me question your priorities. Being so obsessed by keeping politics out of mah entertainment (that as others have pointed out was political from the off anyway) that you describe an okay-as-worst historical as that to try to make your point is... well, it's not helping your point. Yes! Love and Monsters is possibly the worst episode of new Who. Horrible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, mormont said: If you rewatch those episodes, I'm pretty confident you'd find them to be at least as overt as anything done in recent years. They may seem less so in the memory because they have a hefty dose of nostalgia to distract from it. I have rewatched. Overt maybe not the right word; less ‘literal’ but the message certaibly there. Inferno, where excessive drilling dooms the world. Silurians, where extremism on both sides sees a biological attack on humans, and a Silurian settlement bombed. The daleks were clearly about the Nazis; Genesis even had a lot of WW2 imagery. Cybermen stories were warnings of seeking uniformity and purity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 13 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said: Yes! Love and Monsters is possibly the worst episode of new Who. Horrible! Love and Monsters might be the worst episode of anything ever. It's magnificently awful. You could teach writing classes based on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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