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Nagini's Neville

What are some significant differences between Robb and Jon?

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52 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

They should feel similar to you because they were raised around the same people.  They share the same Stark temperament.  Which is to say, nasty.  Both of them are young men with a lot of hubris who have no idea how weak they were.  They were the wrong men to put into the positions they were in. 

Yes, the horrible, nasty, weak, evil Stark boys! Picking on the upstanding likes of Walder Frey & Ramsay Bolton. They really just should have died & let the good, decent men that they were opposing rule the world. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, the horrible, nasty, weak, evil Stark boys! Picking on the upstanding likes of Walder Frey & Ramsay Bolton. They really just should have died & let the good, decent men that they were opposing rule the world. 

Walder did the right thing! All his life he was "productive"- serving his house!  And Ramsay is just a child of abandonment! Only ever wanted to please his dad. So who can blame him if used some ugh... unorthodox methods? Typical Jon- being jealous again!

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15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, the horrible, nasty, weak, evil Stark boys! Picking on the upstanding likes of Walder Frey & Ramsay Bolton. They really just should have died & let the good, decent men that they were opposing rule the world. 

You forgot poor, upstanding member of society Janos Slynt! :lmao:

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8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Walder did the right thing! All his life he was "productive"- serving his house!  And Ramsay is just a child of abandonment! Only ever wanted to please his dad. So who can blame him if used some ugh... unorthodox methods? Typical Jon- being jealous again!

Yes typical Jon. Damn them meddling Starks!

 

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You forgot poor, upstanding member of society Janos Slynt! :lmao:

Ahh! How could I have forgotten Poor Janos! Jon beheaded him all because he wanted to rescue his sister!

Wait... I think I may have mixed up my arguments. Makes just as much sense tho. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Wait... I think I may have mixed up my arguments. Makes just as much sense tho. 

I just choked on my drink I laughed so hard!! So true though...LOL

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes typical Jon. Damn them meddling Starks!

 

Ahh! How could I have forgotten Poor Janos! Jon beheaded him all because he wanted to rescue his sister!

Wait... I think I may have mixed up my arguments. Makes just as much sense tho. 

No no you are right he did basically everything out of this self-centered, selfish love! Had no control over himself! being over-emotional and full of unjustified rage! :lmao:

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I also don't think Jon would have slept with Jeyne, since he did only with Ygritte, when he really didn't have any other choice anymore.

Robb only slept with Jeyne because he was drugged. Otherwise hed zip up faster then Ned in a room with Ashara Dayne. 

He married her for the same reason Jons always depressed. 

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

This bastard issue is a real wedge in family bliss. I mean Cats boarderline Stoneheart with it and Neds as silent as a sister. Jon clearly has issues with it, and Robbs there growing up and witnessing all of it.

Im pretty confident that he married her just in case hed father a child and would have to relive the family drama of his parents and half brother.

Jon would totally do that to, if he wasn't a nw guy... But, he is, right? That in itself is their biggest difference I think. Robbs honor was the honor of his house and kingdom, where as Jons a man of the watch.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No no you are right he did basically everything out of this self-centered, selfish love! Had no control over himself! being over-emotional and full of unjustified rage! :lmao:

Ok, without turning this into a Slynt thread (though I fear thats exactly what im doing) I must say Jon was over emotional, or at least not as wise as he should have been.

Executing a popular officer (probably the most popular in CB) was not smart. Robb executed Karstark and a large amount of his army disappeared, Robb himself thought that this was his kingdom evaporating. (And Karstark deserved it, 100%, Janos only like 75% lol)

Does Jon not read the paper? What about the obituary, Robb was murdered, as was Aerys before him (Robert too) sure these are kingslayers sent to the 7th level of hell but LCs are no king, in fact theres a history of mutiny in the NW to those who get too powerful.

Ned taught his kids to look into their victims eyes, Jon did this with Ygritte and Robb with Karstark. When it was Slynts turn Jon must have seen the likeness of a murderer of children (which ironically is why he was sent to the wall to begin with), instead of an old enemy of his father or an aggravating subject demanding recount likes its Florida.

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Executing a popular officer (probably the most popular in CB) 

I think you’re way off here... I won’t derail the thread [further], but nope, he wasn’t. Not even close. :)

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB”

:wideeyed:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you’re way off here... I won’t derail the thread [further], but nope, he wasn’t. Not even close. :)

At the least its close. So heres the results from the 3rd and 2nd to last vote

Quote

Seven remained as of last night. Ser Denys Mallister had collected two hundred and thirteen tokens, Cotter Pyke one hundred and eighty-seven, Lord Slynt seventy-four, Othell Yarwyck sixty, Bowen Marsh forty-nine, Three-Finger Hobb five, and Dolorous Edd Tollett one. Pyp and his stupid japes. Sam shuffled through the earlier counts. Ser Denys, Cotter Pyke, and Bowen Marsh had all been falling since the third day, Othell Yarwyck since the sixth. Only Lord Janos Slynt was climbing, day after day after day.

Quote

"Two hundred and three for Ser Denys Mallister," he said. "One hundred and sixty-nine for Cotter Pyke. One hundred and thirty-seven for Lord Janos Slynt, seventy-two for Othell Yarwyck, five for Three-Finger Hobb, and two for Dolorous Edd."

So it looks like Janos is gaining popularity along with Yarwyck and Edd, all CB folk, obviously. The majority of Pyke and Mallisters votes are cast by Pyke and Mallister, not residents of CB

Quote

You were allowed to have a friend cast your token if you had duty, so some men took two tokens, three, or four, and Ser Denys and Cotter Pyke voted for the garrisons they had left behind.

So, in conclusion, numbers dont lie. Janos had a strong following in CB

 

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB”

:wideeyed:

 

I mean, there was... Stabbed 4 times

Edited by Hugorfonics

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You’re confusing politics w/ actual support. You said Slynt was one of the most, if not the most, popular crow at CB. I have a ton more to say, but as I’ve said before, this thread is about the similarities between Robb and Jon. If you want to discuss PoS extraordinaire Janos Slynt, start a thread about him and I’ll be there. 

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27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, without turning this into a Slynt thread (though I fear thats exactly what im doing) I must say Jon was over emotional, or at least not as wise as he should have been.

I think maybe you should re-read that chapter. Jon is cool, calm, & collected. It is Janos who is overly emotional. 

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Executing a popular officer (probably the most popular in CB) was not smart.

Popularity or no it was very smart. In fact it was the only thing he could do & remain LC & respected by his men. It would have been total chaos otherwise. 

 

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does Jon not read the paper? What about the obituary, Robb was murdered, as was Aerys before him (Robert too) sure these are kingslayers sent to the 7th level of hell but LCs are no king, in fact theres a history of mutiny in the NW to those who get too powerful.

Jon wasn't acting as King? He knew very well his place & his rights. He also wasn't getting too powerful. It was Janos who wanted to keep the position he raised to in KL going into the NW. Janos constantly blabbered about who he was, who his friends were, how high up he was etc. 

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned taught his kids to look into their victims eyes, Jon did this with Ygritte and Robb with Karstark. When it was Slynts turn Jon must have seen the likeness of a murderer of children (which ironically is why he was sent to the wall to begin with), instead of an old enemy of his father or an aggravating subject demanding recount likes its Florida

I'm not totally understanding what you are saying here. 

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB

He absolutely saw the threat of mutiny. It was one of the reasons he wanted to send Janos to Greyguard to begin with. To remove him from Alliser Thorne so they didn't cause ruckus together. After Janos repeatedly refused Jon's order he either had to behead the man or step down as LC because no one would follow him if Janos was allowed to get away with such insubordination. 

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41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb only slept with Jeyne because he was drugged. Otherwise hed zip up faster then Ned in a room with Ashara Dayne. 

He married her for the same reason Jons always depressed.

Is there any proof of this? Because it sounds a lot like fan fiction. Robb slept with jeyne because he fell in love and in a low moment he did something he shouldn t. 

And robb married jeyne for their personal honnor. I have a lot of doubts that jon would make the same choice. He is willing to let go of his honnor in several ocasions in order to do what he thinks is right/must be done.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon would totally do that to, if he wasn't a nw guy... But, he is, right? That in itself is their biggest difference I think. Robbs honor was the honor of his house and kingdom, where as Jons a man of the watch.

i have no idea what you are saying here. But it is interesting to note that jon slept with ygrite several times and when his duty demanded that he left her he did. And by warning the NW he is even responsable for her death...

54 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, without turning this into a Slynt thread (though I fear thats exactly what im doing) I must say Jon was over emotional, or at least not as wise as he should have been.

Executing a popular officer (probably the most popular in CB) was not smart. Robb executed Karstark and a large amount of his army disappeared, Robb himself thought that this was his kingdom evaporating. (And Karstark deserved it, 100%, Janos only like 75% lol)

Does Jon not read the paper? What about the obituary, Robb was murdered, as was Aerys before him (Robert too) sure these are kingslayers sent to the 7th level of hell but LCs are no king, in fact theres a history of mutiny in the NW to those who get too powerful.

Ned taught his kids to look into their victims eyes, Jon did this with Ygritte and Robb with Karstark. When it was Slynts turn Jon must have seen the likeness of a murderer of children (which ironically is why he was sent to the wall to begin with), instead of an old enemy of his father or an aggravating subject demanding recount likes its Florida.

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB

Jon executed janos because he was insubodinate and refused to obey orders. And even if he was popular he was a recent adition to the NW and therefore had little power. Killing him was very smart…

He was one of his enemies that jon could actually get rid off. He wanted to send him away but jannos gave him too many motives to kill him and jon took the chance. In the end there was no blowback to killing jannos in those conditions… If I remember correctly it even put pressure on alister thorne to obey his orders.

I sincerelly hope you don t think anyone tried to kill jon because of jannos...

With robb it was the reverse. Even if the karstark deserved to die his death would jeopardize robb's position and put his men in more danger in future battles. It is a politcally bad move. He should have either imprisoned him or sent him to the Wall. Whatever made the karstarks remain loyal...

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15 hours ago, divica said:

Is there any proof of this? Because it sounds a lot like fan fiction. Robb slept with jeyne because he fell in love and in a low moment he did something he shouldn t. 

And robb married jeyne for their personal honnor. I have a lot of doubts that jon would make the same choice. He is willing to let go of his honnor in several ocasions in order to do what he thinks is right/must be done.

i have no idea what you are saying here. But it is interesting to note that jon slept with ygrite several times and when his duty demanded that he left her he did. And by warning the NW he is even responsable for her death...

Not fan fic, more like crackpot. 

Quote

"You'll have your marriages," said Jaime, "but Jeyne must wait two full years before she weds again." If the girl took another husband too soon and had a child by him, inevitably there would come whispers that the Young Wolf was the father.

"I have two sons as well," Lady Westerling reminded him. "Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that." There was a hint of reproach in her voice. "Raynald knew nought of any . . . of the understanding with your lord father. He may be a captive at the Twins."

Of the understanding. That's a weird thing to say. What was the understanding/what role did Lady Westerling play?

You say Robb married her their honor, I say it was for their kids (cat and jon must have done a number on Robb)

Quote

Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …"

"She was … very kind," Jon told him.

Robb looked relieved. "Good."

But word, I agree. Jon has no "honor" as hes a man of the watch.

Yea he totally killed Ygritte to save his seven kingdoms, which is contrast to Robb who made sure his wife was far from the carnage

15 hours ago, divica said:

In the end there was no blowback to killing jannos in those conditions… If I remember correctly it even put pressure on alister thorne to obey his orders.

I sincerelly hope you don t think anyone tried to kill jon because of jannos...

With robb it was the reverse. Even if the karstark deserved to die his death would jeopardize robb's position and put his men in more danger in future battles. It is a politcally bad move. He should have either imprisoned him or sent him to the Wall. Whatever made the karstarks remain loyal...

Seemingly. Jon wanted to kill Alliser as well, but he was smarter then Janos.

I do think that, or, the main reason, but not the only one.

I disagree. Karstarks crime was so ghastly it could not warrant a lesser sentence. Robbs no nw, he has honor which equates to his subjects of the north and riverlands, Karstark made a mockery of it. What kind of kingdom is Robb ruling here? If he spared Karstark itd be a slight on everything Robb related.

Thats why its good to be the king, absolute ruler like the sun king. But Jons no king, there's no questioning his honor here.

(For more Slynt stuff ima go to the other thread (in like an hour so something) but i do think hes relevant here as we explore the differences between Janos and Karstark or Jeyne and Ygritte)

 

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On 11/6/2019 at 7:17 PM, Tai Pan said:

Pretty comprehensive observation of Jon and Robb.  They were regular young men who got put into positions of leadership and proved poor fit for the role.  Robb could have been a suitable northern lord but he was not king material.  Jon would have fine being a man-at-arms under Robb, but he is unsuited for leadership.

Robb might be typical for a nobleman from a primitive region like the north.  Jon is downright primitive.  His manners and his temper are savage.  He would be okay for a ranger but he will always be a high risk for vow breaking and treason because of his nature.  Jon belongs with the wildlings on the other side of the wall.  I would not want that guy to be my commander. 

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