What if Dorne had demanded justice for Elia and her children ?

[Mario Seddy]

So what would happen if doran and oberyn martell went to Robert and demanded justice for the murder of elia and her children? Would they get justice or would Robert just brush them aside? 

[Bael's Bastard]

29 minutes ago, Mario Seddy said:

So what would happen if doran and oberyn martell went to Robert and demanded justice for the murder of elia and her children? Would they get justice or would Robert just brush them aside? 

It's possible that Doran broached the subject of justice when Jon Arryn returned Lewyn's bones to Dorne.

Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it." — ASOS: Tyrion

Perhaps Jon was unwilling/unable to offer up any of the real culprits, or perhaps Doran didn't even bother to broach the subject.

[frenin]

Gregor and Lorxh would've to go, Robert wouldn't have cared much but if the Prince of Dorne is asking, you give gim something big enough to shut their mouths and with those two deads, they can present rationalizations to protect Tywin.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Mario Seddy said:

So what would happen if doran and oberyn martell went to Robert and demanded justice for the murder of elia and her children? Would they get justice or would Robert just brush them aside? 

They could demand all they want, but unless they are willing to march on King's Landing and take the throne for themselves, there's not much they could do about it. The Dornish army had already lost some 10,000 men on the Trident.

They could have seceded from the realm, of course, and then fallen back on their old tricks to prevail, but this wouldn't bring justice for Elia and the children; it would just put Clegane, Lorch and Tywin out of reach.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

They could demand all they want, but unless they are willing to march on King's Landing and take the throne for themselves, there's not much they could do about it. The Dornish army had already lost some 10,000 men on the Trident.

There is no way they lost 10,000 men at the Trident. The battle ended with Rhaegar's death and prior to that not all 10,000 Dornishmen had been killed, nor would they be butchered after the battle was over. It might be that they did not lose more than a couple of hundred men. 1,000-2,000 men would be much.

You have to keep in mind that the Battle of the Trident was fought at a ford, meaning that the actual front line where men were clashing would have been pretty narrow. And we have at this point yet to hear that one or the other side pushed deep into the ranks of the other army.

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's possible that Doran broached the subject of justice when Jon Arryn returned Lewyn's bones to Dorne.

Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it." — ASOS: Tyrion

Perhaps Jon was unwilling/unable to offer up any of the real culprits, or perhaps Doran didn't even bother to broach the subject.

It rather seems that Doran did indeed demand justice, and Robert had given Jon specific commands to not deliver it. To not publicly admit that Tywin was behind it nor to even see this as a punishable crime. Robert wanted to see Rhaegar and his brood dead. If he had been more flexible in this regard, then Jaime would have gone to the Wall and Tywin would have at least been forced to give up the men who killed Elia and the children and they would have been sacrificed as scapegoats to pretend their were doing justice. But Robert wasn't even willing to do that - which he certainly would have if some other highborn women and children were killed in this manner.

[Arthur Peres]

Best case scenario Robert will execute Gregor and Lorch, but Tywin is too big shot to be caught in trial.

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Best case scenario Robert will execute Gregor and Lorch, but Tywin is too big shot to be caught in trial.

Unless your the king, nobody's above the law. 

So like most trials (impeachment vote yesterday!!), incarcerate the mid levels and microwave some popcorn, its snitching time.

Gregor was pretty loose lipped to Oberyn and that was with just some light interrogation ( and some poisonous chemicals). Imagine if they had Qyburn like access to their prisoners. Gregor and Lorch would be singing like a Septa.

Its a very low chance, but Tywins head is the best scenario

[John Suburbs]

On 11/1/2019 at 11:45 AM, Lord Varys said:

There is no way they lost 10,000 men at the Trident. The battle ended with Rhaegar's death and prior to that not all 10,000 Dornishmen had been killed, nor would they be butchered after the battle was over. It might be that they did not lose more than a couple of hundred men. 1,000-2,000 men would be much.

You have to keep in mind that the Battle of the Trident was fought at a ford, meaning that the actual front line where men were clashing would have been pretty narrow. And we have at this point yet to hear that one or the other side pushed deep into the ranks of the other army.

I didn't say they were killed, but they were lost. Llewyn was already badly wounded when Corbray took him down, and that wouldn't have happened if the bulk of his army and his knights were intact. Then the charge cut the remaining Dornish line to pieces. So exactly how many Dornish fell at the battle is indeterminant. But we are then told that the survivors, which would include the Dornish, scattered and fled back to KL, where, even if they did try to put up some kind of defense, would have been either killed or captured. So in the end, Doran, did in fact lose virtually all of the 10k who marched with Llewyn, since it is extremely unlikely that many of them made it back to Dorne where they could be dragooned into a new army to march on King's Landing.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I didn't say they were killed, but they were lost. Llewyn was already badly wounded when Corbray took him down, and that wouldn't have happened if the bulk of his army and his knights were intact. Then the charge cut the remaining Dornish line to pieces. So exactly how many Dornish fell at the battle is indeterminant. But we are then told that the survivors, which would include the Dornish, scattered and fled back to KL, where, even if they did try to put up some kind of defense, would have been either killed or captured. So in the end, Doran, did in fact lose virtually all of the 10k who marched with Llewyn, since it is extremely unlikely that many of them made it back to Dorne where they could be dragooned into a new army to march on King's Landing.

I get your general point, but I don't think you have to be right on the Lewyn part. Might be Lewyn only died because most of his knights and spearmen got a good beating already, but if he led from the front - as a knight of the Kingsguard may have done - he may have much faster in much worse shape than most of his men.

I mean, the fact that Rhaegar and Robert met in battle doesn't have to imply that most of their men were as beaten up as they both were when Rhaegar finally died.

[John Suburbs]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I get your general point, but I don't think you have to be right on the Lewyn part. Might be Lewyn only died because most of his knights and spearmen got a good beating already, but if he led from the front - as a knight of the Kingsguard may have done - he may have much faster in much worse shape than most of his men.

I mean, the fact that Rhaegar and Robert met in battle doesn't have to imply that most of their men were as beaten up as they both were when Rhaegar finally died.

If he did that then he's a fool. He is the commander of the royalist right flank. If he falls, then the chain of command is broken and cohesion on the entire flank suffers. Sure he may lead the initial attack, but he should be accompanied by the best knights at his disposal so any foe will have to fight through them before they get to him, particularly if he gets unhorsed.

My suspicion is that Rhaegar only rode out to face Robert after his right flank had been routed and both Darry and Selmy were taken out of action. It was a last chance gamble to turn the tide of battle, that almost worked.

[Moiraine Sedai]

They can demand but they lacked the power to oppose Robert.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If he did that then he's a fool. He is the commander of the royalist right flank. If he falls, then the chain of command is broken and cohesion on the entire flank suffers. Sure he may lead the initial attack, but he should be accompanied by the best knights at his disposal so any foe will have to fight through them before they get to him, particularly if he gets unhorsed.

As far as I know we know next to nothing about the course of that battle, not even whether Rhaegar's people attacked or defended the ford, much less where exactly Lewyn and his people and the Vale men (?) with Corbray were when Lewyn fell.

I mean, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to mean that there was a 'right flank' in that battle. They wanted to either cross or defend a ford, meaning 'the battlefield' cannot have been that broad. If the Trident could have been crossed left or right of the center of the army then this was either very big ford (which I don't think it was) or the entire Trident was a ford in that region.

For any part of the two armies to get in serious trouble - especially the flanks - a sufficient amount of troops must have crossed the Trident to reach enemy territory. May have been they did - in fact, must have been the case for there to be much fighting - but we don't know how much fighting there actually was, nor how many men were actually killed.

The idea that Rhaegar had, at first, only Lewyn and his guys defend the ford or attack doesn't sound very convincing to me.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My suspicion is that Rhaegar only rode out to face Robert after his right flank had been routed and both Darry and Selmy were taken out of action. It was a last chance gamble to turn the tide of battle, that almost worked.

That is possible, but just a guess based on essentially nothing. And, I must say, somewhat unlikely since I have no clue how on earth his right flank could have been routed if we talk about a pretty narrow ford. I mean, if the right flank was stationed there (or even attacking the rebels on the other side) then where the hell were the center and the left flank?

What I think is imaginable is some sort of break-through scenario - either the rebels crossed the ford and cut down the loyalists, and the flank(s) somehow entered the fighting then, or the loyalists pushed through and lost men while the rebels were pushing them back - that way one could imagine that Robert and Rhaegar came together when they both led the contigents of the army they commanded to the ford.

Considering Robert liked to lead from the front I think it would be more likely if Rhaegar was the one leading the attack, which would mean Robert ended up in the ford facing Rhaegar during some sort of counterattack pushing the loyalists back, but that's just a guess.

Whether Darry and Selmy actually commanded contingents of their own and did not serve as sworn shields to Rhaegar is also not clear at this point. I'd assume at least one of them was doing the proper job of the Kingsguard, but that's just a guess, too.

[rotting sea cow]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether Darry and Selmy actually commanded contingents of their own and did not serve as sworn shields to Rhaegar is also not clear at this point. I'd assume at least one of them was doing the proper job of the Kingsguard, but that's just a guess, too. 

No idea about Darry, but Barristan seems to have lead the attack (or defence) against the Northmen as Ned recalls the discussion between Roose Bolton and him  whether to save his life or not.

Details of the Trident are nevertheless very sketchy. Even certain timelines do not make a lot of sense. Does it matter?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

No idea about Darry, but Barristan seems to have lead the attack (or defence) against the Northmen as Ned recalls the discussion between Roose Bolton and him  whether to save his life or not.

That is also just a guess based on nothing. We don't know when that talk took place, but most likely it occurred after the battle was over. After all, one assumes Robert - who made the call to spare his life - wouldn't have had time for stuff like that while Rhaegar was still alive. And that could certainly mean that Selmy was injured by Robert himself, or perhaps by men from Robert's retinue when they attacked Rhaegar. After all, it is unthinkable that Rhaegar did not have some protectors around his position, at least originally. It might be he was separated from them during the fighting and before he met Robert, but this doesn't have to be the case.

Vice versa, Robert, while leading from the front, wouldn't also not have been completely alone. He would have had men with him who at least tried to protect him against attacks.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Details of the Trident are nevertheless very sketchy. Even certain timelines do not make a lot of sense. Does it matter?

I'd say it matters when people start to imagine things about the people involved we cannot really draw from the text.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As far as I know we know next to nothing about the course of that battle, not even whether Rhaegar's people attacked or defended the ford, much less where exactly Lewyn and his people and the Vale men (?) with Corbray were when Lewyn fell.

I mean, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to mean that there was a 'right flank' in that battle. They wanted to either cross or defend a ford, meaning 'the battlefield' cannot have been that broad. If the Trident could have been crossed left or right of the center of the army then this was either very big ford (which I don't think it was) or the entire Trident was a ford in that region.

For any part of the two armies to get in serious trouble - especially the flanks - a sufficient amount of troops must have crossed the Trident to reach enemy territory. May have been they did - in fact, must have been the case for there to be much fighting - but we don't know how much fighting there actually was, nor how many men were actually killed.

The idea that Rhaegar had, at first, only Lewyn and his guys defend the ford or attack doesn't sound very convincing to me.

That is possible, but just a guess based on essentially nothing. And, I must say, somewhat unlikely since I have no clue how on earth his right flank could have been routed if we talk about a pretty narrow ford. I mean, if the right flank was stationed there (or even attacking the rebels on the other side) then where the hell were the center and the left flank?

What I think is imaginable is some sort of break-through scenario - either the rebels crossed the ford and cut down the loyalists, and the flank(s) somehow entered the fighting then, or the loyalists pushed through and lost men while the rebels were pushing them back - that way one could imagine that Robert and Rhaegar came together when they both led the contigents of the army they commanded to the ford.

Considering Robert liked to lead from the front I think it would be more likely if Rhaegar was the one leading the attack, which would mean Robert ended up in the ford facing Rhaegar during some sort of counterattack pushing the loyalists back, but that's just a guess.

Whether Darry and Selmy actually commanded contingents of their own and did not serve as sworn shields to Rhaegar is also not clear at this point. I'd assume at least one of them was doing the proper job of the Kingsguard, but that's just a guess, too.

I've always thought Rhaegar and his army were the ones attacking. Rhaegar tried to cross the river before the battle right? Seems rather pointless to cross the river, if you're defending it.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As far as I know we know next to nothing about the course of that battle, not even whether Rhaegar's people attacked or defended the ford, much less where exactly Lewyn and his people and the Vale men (?) with Corbray were when Lewyn fell.

I mean, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to mean that there was a 'right flank' in that battle. They wanted to either cross or defend a ford, meaning 'the battlefield' cannot have been that broad. If the Trident could have been crossed left or right of the center of the army then this was either very big ford (which I don't think it was) or the entire Trident was a ford in that region.

For any part of the two armies to get in serious trouble - especially the flanks - a sufficient amount of troops must have crossed the Trident to reach enemy territory. May have been they did - in fact, must have been the case for there to be much fighting - but we don't know how much fighting there actually was, nor how many men were actually killed.

The idea that Rhaegar had, at first, only Lewyn and his guys defend the ford or attack doesn't sound very convincing to me.

That is possible, but just a guess based on essentially nothing. And, I must say, somewhat unlikely since I have no clue how on earth his right flank could have been routed if we talk about a pretty narrow ford. I mean, if the right flank was stationed there (or even attacking the rebels on the other side) then where the hell were the center and the left flank?

What I think is imaginable is some sort of break-through scenario - either the rebels crossed the ford and cut down the loyalists, and the flank(s) somehow entered the fighting then, or the loyalists pushed through and lost men while the rebels were pushing them back - that way one could imagine that Robert and Rhaegar came together when they both led the contigents of the army they commanded to the ford.

Considering Robert liked to lead from the front I think it would be more likely if Rhaegar was the one leading the attack, which would mean Robert ended up in the ford facing Rhaegar during some sort of counterattack pushing the loyalists back, but that's just a guess.

Whether Darry and Selmy actually commanded contingents of their own and did not serve as sworn shields to Rhaegar is also not clear at this point. I'd assume at least one of them was doing the proper job of the Kingsguard, but that's just a guess, too.

True, most of what we think happened comes from Littlefinger, not the most reliable of sources. But barring any other info, I would guess that the ford is fairly wide, or perhaps there are multiple fords. It had to be large enough to accommodate a large army, otherwise Rhaegar would not have tried to cross there. Plus I think it's fair to say that not all the fighting happened in the water. The battle began when Rhaegar was crossing the river, so I would imagine that some part of his force (namely the Dornish) were already across and were able to establish a line. Or, as you suggest, the northerners were able to cross and establish a line on the south side. But I'm guessing.

Yes, I have no evidence that my scenario for Rhaegar and Robert happened. It's a suspicion. Hopefully we'll get some clarity by the end of the story, but maybe no. 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I've always thought Rhaegar and his army were the ones attacking. Rhaegar tried to cross the river before the battle right? Seems rather pointless to cross the river, if you're defending it.

It is just as likely with out current information that Rhaegar defended his side of the ford and Robert attacked him. We don't know at this point.

As I said, it is a little bit more likely that Rhaegar was doing the attacking due to the fact that Robert likely would have led from the front, meaning he would not have been at the ford when he met Rhaegar, but much more farther south in enemy territory. After all there wouldn't have been any fighting but Robert and Rhaegar and their immediate companions if Rhaegar and Robert had met each other in the beginning of the battle at the ford which seems to be the only thing connecting the two armies which were separated by the river.

Now, perhaps either the rebels or the loyalists had found a way to get across the river at another ford (or swam through the river) and this is how the right flank was attacked or did some attacking. But we don't know.

Technically it would be imaginable that the rebels charged through the ford, crushed into Rhaegar's center and drove them back and he then had his flanks come in to surround the enemy and prevent their retreat/closing the ford again.

But since Robert would have likely led such an attack he and Rhaegar would, again, likely have never met at the ford.

To be sure, though, we have no clue what portion of his army Rhaegar was commanding. Was he with the van, with the center, with the reserve, or with one of the flanks? We don't know that, either.

If he was not with the center, and his flanks sort of pushed back the a rebel attack, then he could have come in with the reserve driving the rebel survivors back in/across the river, coming to face Robert then.

But again, we don't know.

Imagining how things happened makes no sense with the information we have. George would have to give us at least a little bit more - basic facts like who was attacking whom, what parts of the armies Rhaegar and Robert were commanding, and when exactly in the course of the battle they met (it is not unconceivable that Lewyn and Barristan fell at the same time or even after Rhaegar, because they refused to yield or simply were too far away from the ford to realize that Rhaegar had already fallen).

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

True, most of what we think happened comes from Littlefinger, not the most reliable of sources. But barring any other info, I would guess that the ford is fairly wide, or perhaps there are multiple fords. It had to be large enough to accommodate a large army, otherwise Rhaegar would not have tried to cross there. Plus I think it's fair to say that not all the fighting happened in the water. The battle began when Rhaegar was crossing the river, so I would imagine that some part of his force (namely the Dornish) were already across and were able to establish a line. Or, as you suggest, the northerners were able to cross and establish a line on the south side. But I'm guessing.

Yes, I have no evidence that my scenario for Rhaegar and Robert happened. It's a suspicion. Hopefully we'll get some clarity by the end of the story, but maybe no. 

We do get a glimpse of the ford in AGoT, nothing indicates there are multiple such fords. Although the idea of either of the two sides trying to circumvent the ford somehow to fall the enemy in the rear certainly has something for it.

We don't know whether Rhaegar had a choice in fords. The Trident is a broad and deep river so you have to go with what geography gives you, not what you would like to have.

But we don't even know whether Rhaegar wanted to cross the river or whether he wanted the enemy to come to him. Even if the loyalists ended up being the ones who attacked first, we don't know this was the plan when they decided to have the battle here.

Fighting at/near a river is always very dangerous, even more so when there is only a small way where you can cross it.

If the Dornishmen were actually the 'right flank' with Lewyn commanding it then I'd be surprise to see them going across the river first. That wouldn't make any sense, considering a flank's role in a battle is to support the center, not to go off adventuring - there could certainly be some ad hoc explanation for this if that's how George wanted the battle to go, but at this point none such is given.

I'd then rather assume that Robert did, for once, not command from the front.

We also don't know, now that a I think of it, whether it was planned to have battle there. Were the rebels already at the Trident when the loyalists came (or vice versa), had either side fortified positions already, did any side have the high ground on their side of the river, etc.

Technically fighting could have started while one side was trying to cross the river, which means them may have been surprised.

Considering Robert's famous night marches and the like actually are nowhere to be seen in the war (aside from, perhaps, his quick march to Summerhall) it might be that the rebels actually surprised Rhaegar's forces at the Trident.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We do get a glimpse of the ford in AGoT, nothing indicates there are multiple such fords. Although the idea of either of the two sides trying to circumvent the ford somehow to fall the enemy in the rear certainly has something for it.

We don't know whether Rhaegar had a choice in fords. The Trident is a broad and deep river so you have to go with what geography gives you, not what you would like to have.

But we don't even know whether Rhaegar wanted to cross the river or whether he wanted the enemy to come to him. Even if the loyalists ended up being the ones who attacked first, we don't know this was the plan when they decided to have the battle here.

Fighting at/near a river is always very dangerous, even more so when there is only a small way where you can cross it.

If the Dornishmen were actually the 'right flank' with Lewyn commanding it then I'd be surprise to see them going across the river first. That wouldn't make any sense, considering a flank's role in a battle is to support the center, not to go off adventuring - there could certainly be some ad hoc explanation for this if that's how George wanted the battle to go, but at this point none such is given.

I'd then rather assume that Robert did, for once, not command from the front.

We also don't know, now that a I think of it, whether it was planned to have battle there. Were the rebels already at the Trident when the loyalists came (or vice versa), had either side fortified positions already, did any side have the high ground on their side of the river, etc.

Technically fighting could have started while one side was trying to cross the river, which means them may have been surprised.

Considering Robert's famous night marches and the like actually are nowhere to be seen in the war (aside from, perhaps, his quick march to Summerhall) it might be that the rebels actually surprised Rhaegar's forces at the Trident.

I'm going by the wiki, which says Robert attacked as Rhaegar was attempting to cross, but maybe, maybe not.

What's always puzzled me more about all of this is why Robert simply didn't march on King's Landing right after the double wedding and instead waited for Aerys and Rhaegar to get their army together. They had a good nine months, apparently, so why waste time fighting little skirmishes with minor river lords when they could have ended the war in one swift stroke? My only guess is that they were leery of confronting the Tyrell army if it came up from Storm's End, but that is a risk no matter when they marched on KL, and it would be better to do that first rather than after they've been bloodied by Rhaegar.

Mayhaps they were leery of Tywin as well? But they would have plenty of word if Tywin suddenly went on the march, and even then, it's still easier to defeat two armies on the way to your goal then three.