Robert should have wed Daenerys to Joffrey

[Bael's Bastard]

It's nice that Jon Arryn convinced Robert not to have Viserys and Daenerys murdered for all those years, but it's too bad he didn't convince Robert to apprehend them and make use of them.

Viserys could have been sent to Winterfell to be a ward/hostage of Ned Stark, or else dealt with in some other manner. And Daenerys could have been betrothed and eventually wed to Joffrey.

Nobody could ever have predicted that Daenerys would become what she did, but it still made sense to take control of what remained of House Targaryen, and use it to their advantage.

Perhaps Jon was content to convince Robert not to murder them, and to get Dorne to agree not to support them, and believed that would neutralize the issue.

Perhaps he didn't trust what Robert would allow people like the Lannisters to do for him if Viserys and Daenerys were brought near.

But I think the Baratheon regime missed an important opportunity to absorb Daenerys's claims.

[Lord Varys]

Perhaps there were such thoughts and possibly even negotiations involving Ser Willem Darry. I mean, if Jon Arryn really did not want the Targaryens to die he may have had a reason for this. But, you know, it is essentially impossible that either Viserys III or any loyal guardian of his would have accepted such an offer. The way the rebels dealt with Aerys II, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon ensured that there could be no trust there.

Such a suggestion would have as much chance of success as an offer of Aegon V to Daemon III Blackfyre to settle their differences peacefully after what Bloodraven pulled during the Great Council.

If the rebels had not killed Aerys II and Rhaegar's family - or perhaps even if Robert had punished the Lannisters by executing Jaime, Tywin, and their thugs for the murders - then Robert may have been able to reach an understanding with Rhaella. Then Robert's heir could have been married to either Rhaenys (if she were still alive) or Daenerys. But in such a setting Robert's wife would likely not have been Cersei.

[Bael's Bastard]

You're misunderstanding me. I am not saying Robert and Jon should have negotiated a marriage with the caretakers of the Targs, but that they should have captured Viserys and Daenerys alive, or killed Viserys in the capture, and eventually wed Daenerys to Joffrey. It would have eliminated Robert's Targaryen problem.

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You're misunderstanding me. I am not saying Robert and Jon should have negotiated a marriage with the caretakers of the Targs, but that they should have captured Viserys and Daenerys alive, or killed Viserys in the capture, and eventually wed Daenerys to Joffrey. It would have eliminated Robert's Targaryen problem.

Well, they never had an opportunity to do any of that.

Or rather: Tywin had with Rhaenys. But I'm pretty sure Robert would have never married his son to her if they had taken her captive and Robert had, for some reason, decided to spare her life. She would have gone to the silent sisters, most likely, not be honored with a crown. Robert didn't have an heir yet when they captured her, and it would be an odd thing to keep any Targaryen woman around while the king didn't have any heirs - in the end he produced only daughters and then such a union cannot be consummated

And why bother marrying a captured Dany to Joffrey if she is the last Targaryen alive? Why not kill her, too? That would have also resolved Robert's Targaryen problem. And much more efficiently since it would have spared him the sight of a dragon spawn at his court - or even worse: dragon spawn grandchildren.

Marrying Dany or Rhaenys to his heir would only make sense if there is still another pretender around who could topple his dynasty - sort of like Maegor only married Rhaena and named Aerea his heir because Jaheaerys and Alysanne were still at large and he had no children of his own. If they hadn't been out there and/or if Maegor had already had children of his own he would have likely killed Rhaena and her daughters rather than allowing the bloodline of his brother to continue.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Robert despised the Targaryens. He forgave many people for choosing the other side. Ser B being one of the big ones. But his hatred for Rhaegar and his kin ran so deep, that I doubt he would of found it in himself to even hear such a request. Look what Ned had to go through just to convince Robert not to kill them outright. 

I do see what you're saying. But. Well.... Would YOU want to make that suggestion to Robert? Because whoever had the courage to go up to him and make such a suggestion really should do so in full plate atop a fast horse.

And as Lord V said. The big damage had been done. The babes and their mother were so brutally slain by Gregor and co that even a desperate Viserys would of declined IMO. 

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Would YOU want to make that suggestion to Robert?

Lol. Hey, Robert. Shes just a babe, but one day may make a great wife, what do you say?

Quote

"I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."

 

[Fencer]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You're misunderstanding me. I am not saying Robert and Jon should have negotiated a marriage with the caretakers of the Targs, but that they should have captured Viserys and Daenerys alive, or killed Viserys in the capture, and eventually wed Daenerys to Joffrey. It would have eliminated Robert's Targaryen problem.

I'm not sure how brining Daenerys into the court would eliminate the Targaryen problem.  In exile, the Targaryen children are largely isolated--too distant to act as a rallying post for any remaining loyalists, as well as making provision of any support almost not worth the effort.  In King's Landing, there would be much more access for support and an immediate reminder of the previous dynasty.  And really, how long would Joffrey last in that marriage bed before having his throat slit by his own bride?

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Fencer said:

I'm not sure how brining Daenerys into the court would eliminate the Targaryen problem.  In exile, the Targaryen children are largely isolated--too distant to act as a rallying post for any remaining loyalists, as well as making provision of any support almost not worth the effort.  In King's Landing, there would be much more access for support and an immediate reminder of the previous dynasty.  And really, how long would Joffrey last in that marriage bed before having his throat slit by his own bride?

Pre aGoT Dany is quiet and timid, hardly the sort to slit her husband’s throat in bed. She might well go through her transformative period again in this hypothetical marriage but its far from certain.

 

My own answer to the OP - because bringing the Targaryen heirs to Court increases their prominence/visibility and makes them more likely to be used by ambitious Lords for their own schemes.

I also rather suspect the Lannisters (Tywin certainly, Cersei possibly) would be less than thrilled wedding Joff to Dany...she may have found herself becoming suddenly emotionally overwhelmed one day and going to way of Jaehaera

[Lord Varys]

In a scenario where Dany is captured alive and married to Robert's son Robert's wife would likely not be Cersei - and Jaime would no longer be in the KG. That would be a fantasy scenario where Robert isn't as driven by his hatred and where the Lannisters don't have as much of a hold over Robert as they do.

Tywin and Cersei and Jaime would never allow Robert to marry one of his children to a Targaryen. Not after what Tywin and Jaime did to Dany's family.

They are smart enough that this would introduce poison into the royal family, not to mention make their eventual power grab later on more difficult.

A Targaryen betrothed/wife to Robert's heir would inevitably strengthen the Targaryen party in Westeros, and that would affect the amount of control the Lannister could and would exercise at court. Their game was to ride Robert the Moron to power and then take over the Baratheon dynasty.

[Trigger Warning]

DRAGONNNNNNSPAWWWWWWNNN!!!

[Jaak]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or rather: Tywin had with Rhaenys. But I'm pretty sure Robert would have never married his son to her if they had taken her captive and Robert had, for some reason, decided to spare her life. She would have gone to the silent sisters, most likely, not be honored with a crown.

Even Eddard was surprised by the breadth of Robert´s hatred for Targaryens after the Sack. Tywin lacked the opportunity to be privy to Robert´s attitudes.

Killing just Aegon (and Elia as a dangerous witness) and delivering Rhaenys as a live captive would have made sense and split Targaryen loyalists between Rhaenys and Viserys.

Also: Renly was 8. Quite appropriate age to wed Rhaenys (or Daenerys). Since he was 8, neither Robert nor Stannis would have realized that "girls have cooties" happened to be more than a phase in case of Renly.

[SeanF]

Robert would rather have just smashed her head off a wall, or rather, got someone else to do it for him, being the hero that he is.

[Bowen 747]

Princess Daenerys came along after the end of the rebellion.  The Lannisters have already murdered Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon(?).  The cruel lord, Stannis Baratheon, would have murdered King Viserys 3 and Princess Daenerys if he had caught them on Dragonstone.  But thanks to the unwavering loyalty and devotion of Ser Willem Darry, the Baratheons never got their stinking hooves on the royal children. 

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

Even Eddard was surprised by the breadth of Robert´s hatred for Targaryens after the Sack. Tywin lacked the opportunity to be privy to Robert´s attitudes.

But Tywin definitely relied on Robert being happy if he took care of the Mad King and Rhaegar's children for Robert. A scenario where Daenerys Targaryen's life is for some strange reason later spared after Robert has also killed Viserys III - which is what the OP was apparently about - is, in my opinion, only imaginable in a scenario where the Lannisters have to pay at least some price for their betrayal of the Targaryens - i.e. Jaime goes to the Wall, Clegane and Lorch die, Tywin loses some privileges and lands, even if he is not attainted/killed, and, most importantly, King Robert does not honor the Lannisters by marrying Tywin's daughter.

That would then mean Robert has a different queen and a different woman is the mother of this hypothetical heir Daenerys is supposed to be married to.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

Killing just Aegon (and Elia as a dangerous witness) and delivering Rhaenys as a live captive would have made sense and split Targaryen loyalists between Rhaenys and Viserys.

Actually, they could also have spared Aegon's life. Aegon V also didn't need to murder Maegor to take the throne, Jaehaerys I didn't need to murder Aerea to take the throne, and so on.

But this was clearly not the plan - not Robert's plan, I assume, and definitely not Tywin's plan. Because even if Tywin did not command Gregor to not kill Elia, he definitely told him and Lorch to kill both of Rhaegar's children.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

Also: Renly was 8. Quite appropriate age to wed Rhaenys (or Daenerys). Since he was 8, neither Robert nor Stannis would have realized that "girls have cooties" happened to be more than a phase in case of Renly.

That would have given Renly and Dany and their children a rival claim to the Iron Throne. A very, very bad idea - especially if you think what Renly later did without being married to a Targaryen princess.

Trying to integrate Daenerys or Rhaenys into the Baratheon regime could have worked - but there is no guarantee. Compare the situation to Aegon III and Jaehaera. Let's say she lived and they don't have any children due to the complicated past of their families. Imagine then Aegon III predeceased his queen ... then Jaehaera would have the better claim, as some people already thought when Aegon III was crowned.

In our Baratheon scenario this could mean there is eventually going to be a war between the supporters of a Daenerys Targaryen against Robert's brothers and their descendants.

[Jaak]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tywin definitely relied on Robert being happy if he took care of the Mad King and Rhaegar's children for Robert. A scenario where Daenerys Targaryen's life is for some strange reason later spared after Robert has also killed Viserys III - which is what the OP was apparently about - is, in my opinion, only imaginable in a scenario where the Lannisters have to pay at least some price for their betrayal of the Targaryens - i.e. Jaime goes to the Wall, Clegane and Lorch die, Tywin loses some privileges and lands, even if he is not attainted/killed, and, most importantly, King Robert does not honor the Lannisters by marrying Tywin's daughter.

Ser Willum had to flee Dragonstone in secret, with just a few servants.

It would not be difficult for the mutinous garrison to get a wind and apprehend Willum and children before Stannis shows up.

And Stannis is not Tywin.

Stannis might kill children... but refuse to do so just on guess that Robert might be happy for it. Instead, Stannis might insist on a written and public specific order - and if Robert is embarrassed to kill children in front of all Seven Kingdoms, embarrass Robert by delivering the children to Robert alive, unscathed and public.

If Robert gets both Viserys and Daenerys alive, he might feel willing and pressed to kill a 8 year old boy King but too publicly ashamed to do the same with a newborn girl. Or else he might leave Viserys alive but pack the rival King off to Wall, sept or citadel, yet reserve the option of political marriage to the girl.

[frenin]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Their game was to ride Robert the Moron to power and then take over the Baratheon dynasty.

Was that their game?? Or just what happened??

After the Trident was taking the crown, with or without the Lannisters and when the Lannisters sacked KL, Lyanna was very alive and Robert was marrying her, no matter what and even then, they could not know the amount of  sway Cersei would've over Robert and later on, Tywin could not knpw about the cuckolding, not even Cersei planned on cuckolding Robert at first.

There many if and variables to that plan fir it being their game, that was just what they thought, and by they when Robert's heirs were born and it was obvious that sooner than later Robert was getting rid of Cersei.

 

 

On the topic, i think that's  a very good iidea, because that  marriahe would neutralize both Viserys and YGriff but i don't think Robert would allow it

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Was that their game?? Or just what happened??

After the Trident was taking the crown, with or without the Lannisters and when the Lannisters sacked KL, Lyanna was very alive and Robert was marrying her, no matter what and even then, they could not know the amount of  sway Cersei would've over Robert and later on, Tywin could not knpw about the cuckolding, not even Cersei planned on cuckolding Robert at first.

There many if and variables to that plan fir it being their game, that was just what they thought, and by they when Robert's heirs were born and it was obvious that sooner than later Robert was getting rid of Cersei.

Tywin was basically running the kingdom under Aerys, even without a marriage alliance. If he failed to get one under Robert, he could still be angling for power and perhaps hoping for a later Baratheon-Lannister marriage. On the other hand, sacking King's Landing would make him something of a persona non grata there for a while. Perhaps the ideal would be for Robert to declare that Aerys' madness and/or Jaime's actions voided the last Kingsguard appointment, so that Jaime would be sent back to Casterly Rock as Tywin's heir.

Quote

On the topic, i think that's  a very good iidea, because that  marriahe would neutralize both Viserys and YGriff but i don't think Robert would allow it

Robert doesn't know about Young Griff.

 

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Robert would rather have just smashed her head off a wall, or rather, got someone else to do it for him, being the hero that he is.

Tywin did it specifically because he knew Robert couldn't do it himself. And when Robert does order the killings of Viserys and Daenerys, it's after the latter has wed a Dothraki khal in order to provide the former with an army to overthrow the Baratheons.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tywin definitely relied on Robert being happy if he took care of the Mad King and Rhaegar's children for Robert. A scenario where Daenerys Targaryen's life is for some strange reason later spared after Robert has also killed Viserys III - which is what the OP was apparently about - is, in my opinion, only imaginable in a scenario where the Lannisters have to pay at least some price for their betrayal of the Targaryens - i.e. Jaime goes to the Wall, Clegane and Lorch die, Tywin loses some privileges and lands, even if he is not attainted/killed, and, most importantly, King Robert does not honor the Lannisters by marrying Tywin's daughter.

That would then mean Robert has a different queen and a different woman is the mother of this hypothetical heir Daenerys is supposed to be married to.

Actually, they could also have spared Aegon's life. Aegon V also didn't need to murder Maegor to take the throne, Jaehaerys I didn't need to murder Aerea to take the throne, and so on.

But this was clearly not the plan - not Robert's plan, I assume, and definitely not Tywin's plan. Because even if Tywin did not command Gregor to not kill Elia, he definitely told him and Lorch to kill both of Rhaegar's children.

That would have given Renly and Dany and their children a rival claim to the Iron Throne. A very, very bad idea - especially if you think what Renly later did without being married to a Targaryen princess.

Trying to integrate Daenerys or Rhaenys into the Baratheon regime could have worked - but there is no guarantee. Compare the situation to Aegon III and Jaehaera. Let's say she lived and they don't have any children due to the complicated past of their families. Imagine then Aegon III predeceased his queen ... then Jaehaera would have the better claim, as some people already thought when Aegon III was crowned.

In our Baratheon scenario this could mean there is eventually going to be a war between the supporters of a Daenerys Targaryen against Robert's brothers and their descendants.

Tywin murdering Elia and her children on his own initiative was legally dangerous, given what Creggan Stark did to the Small Council of Aegon II.

IMHO, he sounded out the rebel leaders, beforehand.  I should think Hoster Tully (just as ruthless as Tywin) was the go-to man.  Ned would have been kept out of the loop.

[frenin]

24 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tywin was basically running the kingdom under Aerys, even without a marriage alliance. If he failed to get one under Robert, he could still be angling for power and perhaps hoping for a later Baratheon-Lannister marriage. On the other hand, sacking King's Landing would make him something of a persona non grata there for a while. Perhaps the ideal would be for Robert to declare that Aerys' madness and/or Jaime's actions voided the last Kingsguard appointment, so that Jaime would be sent back to Casterly Rock as Tywin's heir.

But Tywin would not get anything under a new Baratheon regime, the rule was going to Jon Arryn and  Lyanna was marrying Robert, a Lannister marriage with Robert's heir would be as likely as a Tyrell.

I don't think he ever thought that, neither Robert, not Tywin, Robert would not want to start his reign breaking the vows of the KG as Joffrey did and  it seems that for Jaime, his only cloaks were either the white  or the Black, the crimsom wasn't under the table.

 

 

33 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert doesn't know about Young Griff.

And yet YG is neutrailized nevertheless.

 

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tywin murdering Elia and her children on his own initiative was legally dangerous, given what Creggan Stark did to the Small Council of Aegon II.

IMHO, he sounded out the rebel leaders, beforehand.  I should think Hoster Tully (just as ruthless as Tywin) was the go-to man.  Ned would have been kept out of the loop.

How so?? Martin  has said that no one thought the Trident would be a decisive  battle and  Tywin didn't have time to send a raven while heading to KL and  Tywin ignored both loyalists and  rebels calls until then.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

But Tywin would not get anything under a new Baratheon regime, the rule was going to Jon Arryn and  Lyanna was marrying Robert, a Lannister marriage with Robert's heir would be as likely as a Tyrell.

I don't think he ever thought that, neither Robert, not Tywin, Robert would not want to start his reign breaking the vows of the KG as Joffrey did and  it seems that for Jaime, his only cloaks were either the white  or the Black, the crimsom wasn't under the table.

 

 

And yet YG is neutrailized nevertheless.

 

How so?? Martin  has said that no one thought the Trident would be a decisive  battle and  Tywin didn't have time to send a raven while heading to KL and  Tywin ignored both loyalists and  rebels calls until then.

Would he murder a royal princess and her children, without knowing that the deed would receive approval?

I think not.