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Is he a ham?

What was the biggest mistake/butterfly effect in ASOIAF history?

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3 minutes ago, redriver said:

No doubt she was dumb around then.Children frequently are, I find ,especially in emotional and political matters. But call me sentimental but, I don't blame children for doing childish things nor would I hold them accountable as a causus belli.

 Nor would anyone else in the history of the world ever.

Only you.

That's harsh from somoene that doesn't know me...what's next my mom?

No, I not blaming Sansa for the war, don't know from what you got that idea... but I do hold her responsable for her stupidity.

Sansa as yourself said was dumb, dumb as a rock, and her decision making makes no sense not emontionally not rationalizing either.

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21 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Don't know about that. Margeary was raised as Sansa, but seems to be much more fit and self aware. Sansa was selfish, spoiled, delusional, imature, lacked selfawareness and good judment. Arya is cleary natural more clever, Arya judment was the right one in the end,

 

Was she?? Margy seemed to be raised by her granny who is not stupid and wants her grankid not be one, Cat and Ned weren't concerned by that, why should they?? Their position was super strong and Sansa didn't need anything but a pretty face and pleasants maner and that's what they made of her, and for Ned one can say that the man didn't want a new wildcard and loose end Lyanna on his hands.

Arya is cleverer than her sis, that's a given but the fact that Arya not fitting is one of her advantages from day one, it would've been a huge dissadvantage had her being the one at KL but then again Sansa would've been long dead had she ever walked her sis path.

 

21 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 Joffrey didn't just said something bad, he tried to kill Arya and her friend for giggles, and after failing takes revenge on something that has nothing to do with the past situation.

 

Ofc, one should note that Sansa is slow learning,,that happens. But love and infatuation makes people do dymb things, if love is an excuse for a nearly woman, i think that an eleven year old deserves a pass.

 

21 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 Sure Tyrion made a dumb mistake, but it's one that we actually see people making it. Try to kick your girlfriend's dog or cat (please don't) and see how she reacts...

I never seen no on falling in love with a  prostitute but in Pretty woman, i did however see men that acted as if women  owed them something an invent stories to justify their behaviour, Tyrion did not make a dumb mistake.

 

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Why Sansa still uses Cersei as her confessor later on then?

Sansa was dumb as rock, that's just how it is.

Because she trusts her, because she's desperate, Sansa would not have survived until now being dumb as rock...

Edited by frenin

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Because she trusts her, because she's desperate, Sansa would not have survived until now being dumb as rock...

Her survivor has more to do with the fact that she is a political pawn to be used by everyone around her, from the start, she is the most passive character in the books and her journey flows acording to the one that moves her, not her own will.

 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

I never seen no on falling in love with a  prostitute but in Pretty woman, i did however see men that acted as if women  owed them something an invent stories to justify their behaviour, Tyrion did not make a dumb mistake.

 

Fair enough. 

thanks for the laugh though :) 

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9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

That's harsh from somoene that doesn't know me...what's next my mom?

No, I not blaming Sansa for the war, don't know from what you got that idea... but I do hold her responsable for her stupidity.

Sansa as yourself said was dumb, dumb as a rock, and her decision making makes no sense not emontionally not rationalizing either.

Probably from the context of the thread title.

So back on track I would say the Darklyn defiance was very pivotal.

A hinge.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Her survivor has more to do with the fact that she is a political pawn to be used by everyone around her, from the start, she is the most passive character in the books and her journey flows acording to the one that moves her, not her own will.

 

Arya would make as political pawn as Sansa was, Sansa would know how to survive in that situation, Arya would get herself killled.

Sansa can't move on her own until she learns the game, she is learning the game, i just hope she don't become S8 Sansa, she is as trapped as Ceresi always thinks  she is, she is no warrior as Brienne or all the boys, she is not naturaly gifted in war nor do she have an army like Robb, Sansa can't do nothing more than survive, learn and wait for her moment.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Not the same situation, Arya is misfit and is jealous of her sis, if Arya was as pretty as Sansa and did all the girly stuff she was supposed to do and she sucked at it, i grant you she would be dumber

WHAT?! If Arya "did all the girly stuff she was supposed to do...she would be dumber"

You are joking right? Someone's intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with whether they do what you deem to be gender appropriate things, or how pretty they are. This is ridiculous. 

I'm not saying Sansa is dumb - she was naive & young. But what you said is just way off base. 

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Arya would make as political pawn as Sansa was, Sansa would know how to survive in that situation, Arya would get herself killled.

 Sansa can't move on her own until she learns the game, she is learning the game, i just hope she don't become S8 Sansa, she is as trapped as Ceresi always thinks  she is, she is no warrior as Brienne or all the boys, she is not naturaly gifted in war nor do she have an army like Robb, Sansa can't do nothing more than survive, learn and wait for her moment.

Agreed, but this also means that her action holds no real weight, she doesn't have a single moment were she could make a diference or decide her own future. Being clever as Tywin or dumb as Victarion makes not much of a diference in such a situation, so she is not under the risk of getting killed anyway. She actually provokes the only person dumb enough to not realize her importance as a paw (Joffrey) with the whole "Maybe he will give me yours".

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Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

WHAT?! If Arya "did all the girly stuff she was supposed to do...she would be dumber"

You are joking right? Someone's intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with whether they do what you deem to be gender appropriate things, or how pretty they are. This is ridiculous. 

I'm not saying Sansa is dumb - she was naive & young. But what you said is just way off base. 

I didn't mean that, what i wanted to say is that had Arya ever fit in, ie did all the girly stuff, she would be a lot more than Sansa, than she is in at the beginning of the series.

Arya not doing "all the girly stuff" let her to develop other mindset, other skills and other likes... Arya started thinking out of the box and that is more difficult to happen when you fit in the system, not a guarentee that it can't happen tho and given that Arya resents her sister, precisely because Sansa is everything one looks on a lady and she just isn't, yes i think that had she ever looked like Sansa or had the same girly stuff she was supposed to do but sucked at while Sansa was a pro, she'd be like Sansa, aka dumber and more naive.

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Just now, frenin said:

I didn't mean that, what i wanted to say is that had Arya ever fit in, ie did all the girly stuff, she would be a lot more than Sansa, than she is in at the beginning of the series.

Arya not doing "all the girly stuff" let her to develop other mindset, other skills and other likes... Arya started thinking out of the box and that is more difficult to happen when you fit in the system, not a guarentee that it can't happen tho and given that Arya resents her sister, precisely because Sansa is everything one looks on a lady and she just isn't, yes i think that had she ever looked like Sansa or had the same girly stuff she was supposed to do but sucked at while Sansa was a pro, she'd be like Sansa, aka dumber and more naive.

Ahh!! My sincere apologies!! I totally read that wrong. 

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This is like blaming your 4 year old daughter for your own divorce.

Many very sad ideas running through this thread.

Duskendale.That was mainly adults.Showed a disrespect to King,realigned some lords,reinforced Aerys in his madness etc.

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41 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Abusive relationship exist sure, but usually the abuser poses as a ideal partner for some time. 

What Joffrey did on the start of their relationship is a major redflag that would destroy any trust, before it was built.

People always want realistic characters, but when they get them, they fail to realize how realistic they are.  It is realistic for a sheltered 11 year-old girl who is obsessed with romantic fairytales, to not suspect her prince charming is a monster. 

The level of awareness people expect out of Sansa is insane.

They expect it of no other character, and fail to hold the older ones to the same standard, even though these characters are making the same errors in judgement.

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

People always want realistic characters, but when they get them, they fail to realize how realistic they are.  It is realistic for a sheltered 11 year-old girl who is obsessed with romantic fairytales, to not suspect her prince charming is a monster. 

The level of awareness people expect out of Sansa is insane.

They expect it of no other character, and fail to hold the older ones to the same standard, even though these characters are making the same errors in judgement.

I disagree. Dany is a victim of Stockhome Syndrome and she is not aware of the damage that it is doing to her mental health at that time. I don't want to get in trouble here by using the word, but Khal Drogo was a monster to Dany and abused her. She did her best to survive like Sansa is doing. Both are young and naive girls in the beginning. 

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12 minutes ago, redriver said:

This is like blaming your 4 year old daughter for your own divorce.

Many very sad ideas running through this thread.

Duskendale.That was mainly adults.Showed a disrespect to King,realigned some lords,reinforced Aerys in his madness etc.

Yah, see I agree with this. Aerys was driven "mad", whatever that means, by being taken as a hostage just as Dany was . They did nothing wrong that wash not caused by someone else. 

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

People always want realistic characters, but when they get them, they fail to realize how realistic they are.  It is realistic for a sheltered 11 year-old girl who is obsessed with romantic fairytales, to not suspect her prince charming is a monster. 

The level of awareness people expect out of Sansa is insane.

 

Well my problem with Sansa's reaction to the Lady event is because it doesn't seem realistic at all.

Sansa is a spoiled brat, this is fine, she is a noble 11 years old girl that always got everything.

She throws major tantrum on Arya because Arya ruins her days with trivial bs, this is also belivable and fine.

A person so easily to be pissed off, ignoring a major event like killing her favorite pet over nothing? Yeah I do take issues with that.

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23 minutes ago, redriver said:

This is like blaming your 4 year old daughter for your own divorce.

Many very sad ideas running through this thread.

Duskendale.That was mainly adults.Showed a disrespect to King,realigned some lords,reinforced Aerys in his madness etc.

I don't understand this.

 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Np.

Edited by frenin

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@Arthur Peres Based on her personality and in what kind of society she lives in Sansa's actions in AGOT is very realistic. In order to understand Sansa you need to keep in mind that she's a noble woman. When project your modern world view on her you ignore the nuance to Sansa as a character in AGOT. And more importantly Sansa makes a habit about suppressing memories of traumatic events in order to cope. You need to read between the lines when you read a Sansa chapter, especially in AGOT. Once you do that you can see that Sansa is straight up terrified of Joffrey. She knows deep down that he is a monster, but at that time she wasn't ready to face that just yet, because as far as Sansa knows she is still has to marry Joffrey. That's why she convinces herself that Joffrey is her dream prince. She's not a silly little girl who is dumb, but a child stuck in an abusive relationship. Looking from this perspective how can you not feel any sympathy for Sansa's situation?

Edited by Elegant Woes

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24 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Arthur Peres Based on her personality and in what kind of society she lives in Sansa's actions in AGOT is very realistic. In order to understand Sansa you need to keep in mind that she's a noble woman. When project your modern world view on her you ignore the nuance to Sansa as a character in AGOT. And more importantly Sansa makes a habit about suppressing memories of traumatic events in order to cope. You need to read between the lines when you read a Sansa chapter, especially in AGOT. Once you do that you can see that Sansa is straight up terrified of Joffrey. She knows deep down that he is a monster, but at that time she wasn't ready to face that just yet, because as far as Sansa knows she is still has to marry Joffrey. That's why she convinces herself that Joffrey is her dream prince. She's not a silly little girl who is dumb, but a child stuck in an abusive relationship. Looking from this perspective how can you not feel any sympathy for Sansa's situation?

Sansa is not terrified of Joffrey she's just blind until the kid took off her father's head. 

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20 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

A person so easily to be pissed off, ignoring a major event like killing her favorite pet over nothing? Yeah I do take issues with that.

I agree with this somewhat, but I think that this was a writing issue that Martin didn't fully contemplate the consequences of this action. Even Joffrey bullying Micah could be explained away by Sansa's romanticism, her memory/rationalization issues, Joffrey being drunk, Joffrey just acting out a more aggressive form of similar behavior we've seen from nobles regarding the smallfolk, etc.

In retrospect, it may have been better had Sansa taken up a distrust of Cersei from this incident (which would be more realistic), but still making up excuses for Joffrey as being better than his parents. Later on, she then goes to Joffrey to ask for intervention from being shipped away instead of Cersei, which might scan better to readers as asking your romantic hero to stop the two of you being separated instead of going to your Father's "Boss" to ask her to make your father do what you want.

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53 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Based on her personality and in what kind of society she lives in Sansa's actions in AGOT is very realistic. In order to understand Sansa you need to keep in mind that she's a noble woman.

I don't disagree it's realistic, especially for her age but Arya is also a noble woman. There are plenty of noble women who would have seen right through Joff from the jump. Sansa is sheltered, spoiled, & naive in the beginning. 

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

And more importantly Sansa makes a habit about suppressing memories of traumatic events in order to cope.

I think this is a possibility at best. I only recall one instance where she changes (in her own mind) what has happened & it certainly wasn't suppressing anything. What do you think she has suppressed? 

 

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

You need to read between the lines when you read a Sansa chapter, especially in AGOT. Once you do that you can see that Sansa is straight up terrified of Joffrey.

She doesn't seem terrified of Joffrey at all. Not in the beginning. She is scared of him after the incident with Arya & Mycah but NOT because he attached Mycah or because he attempted to attack her sister, because he yells at her when she tries to touch him. 

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

She knows deep down that he is a monster, but at that time she wasn't ready to face that just yet, because as far as Sansa knows she is still has to marry Joffrey.

Not at all. I haven't read anything suggesting she knows deep down he is a monster prior to Ned being imprisoned & I don't think it fully dawns on her until he beheads her father. 

Again, I like Sansa & her reactions are not out of the norm for a naive child but there is no reason to suggest that she knew he was a monster but was afraid she would still have to marry him. She wouldn't have any issue going to one of her parents & explaining her self. She wants to marry him because she doesn't recognize what he is. So much so that when her dad is going to remove her from KL & says he will make another match for her she foils his plans by telling Cersei, specifically so she can stay & marry Joffrey, & become Queen. 

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's why she convinces herself that Joffrey is her dream prince. She's not a silly little girl who is dumb, but a child stuck in an abusive relationship. Looking from this perspective how can you not feel any sympathy for Sansa's situation?

I feel sympathy for her (I know this wasn't directed at me) but she is a silly little girl. Not necessarily dumb, but naive & spoiled. She isn't stuck in any relationship up until her father dies. As a matter of fact she had a great oppurtunity, to get out of said relationship, directly prior to her father dying & she puposely thwarts it. That doesn's sound to me like someone who is desperate to get out of an abusive relationship. 

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