Why didn't Rhaenys do a harrenhal on Sunspear?

[frenin]

11 hours ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

Maybe they could fish.  But what are the nobles going to do without their silks and servants?  The poor commoners will get tired of serving lords who can offer them nothing but hardship.  They will turn on their lords and sell them to the Targaryens in exchange for peace.  

Just as like they did with Agon and Daeron... Wait, they fingered them and refused to bend, Dornish commons were not bending the knee, they suffered a genocide from both Aegon and Meria, they didn't bend the knee , Daeron made the lords bend their knees, the commons carried out the resistance until the lorsd joined them, they wouldn't have sold them to the Targs.

 

By then Dorne was a smoking desert, beset by famine, plague, and blight. “A blasted land,” traders from the Free Cities called it. Yet House Martell still remained Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, as their words avowed. One Dornish knight, brought before Queen Visenya as a captive, insisted that Meria Martell would sooner see her people dead than slaves to House Targaryen. Visenya replied that she and her brother would be glad to oblige the princess.

 

Dorne was a blighted, burning ruin by this time, and still the Dornish hid and fought from the shadows, refusing to surrender. Even the smallfolk refused to yield, and the toll in lives was uncountable.

 

The king quickly consolidated his control of Dorne, dealing with these rebels when he found them … though not without difficulty. In one infamous episode, a poisoned arrow meant for the king was taken instead by his cousin Prince Aemon (the younger son of Prince Viserys), who had to be sent home by ship to recover. Yet by 159 AC the hinterlands were pacified, and the Young Dragon was free to return in triumph to King’s Landing, leaving Lord Tyrell in Dorne to keep the peace. As assurance for Dorne’s future loyalty and good behavior, fourteen highborn hostages were carried back with him to King’s Landing, the sons and daughters of almost all the great houses of Dorne.

This tactic proved less effective than Daeron might have hoped, however. Whilst the hostages helped ensure the continued loyalty of their own blood, the king had not anticipated the tenacity of Dorne’s smallfolk, over whom he had no hold. Ten thousand men, it is said, died in the battle for Dorne; forty thousand more died over the course of the following three years, as common Dornishmen fought on stubbornly against the king’s men.

[The hairy bear]

On 11/3/2019 at 3:56 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

Not necessarily.  Destroy the people and take the land. 

Without entering into the ethics of this (which is already giving it a huge pass), it would still be a stupid strategy.

Any conqueror should have a larger purpose when conquering lands other than his megalomania. Aegon certainly didn't need more land. The sixth kingdoms he already controlled were not very populated. There were just four cities, and plenty of seriously underpopulated areas (particularly, but not only, in the North).

The conquest of Dorne could provide wealth to the Targaryens (first through by sacking it with their armies, then via taxes). Once the kingdom was fully integrated, it would also provide them more manpower as they could recruit more men. But empty land? It would be of no use to them.

On 11/3/2019 at 3:56 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

It is not weakness to destroy a stubborn and resistant people in order to claim their lands.

I'd say it's weakness. Mental weakness, in particular. Although I would usually use other kind of words when referring to genocides and its apologists.

On 11/3/2019 at 1:22 AM, Quoth the raven, said:

Rhaenys was the weakest of the three Targaryen children.  She was the politician in the family.  Forced arranged marriages are her tools of the trade.  She was not the warrior maiden.  And to fly low enough to expose her dragon to the primitive weapons of the time was a poor tactical choice.  She could have bombarded the Dornish with dragonball flames from above if she had been the tactician that her siblings were. 

In all likelihood, the range of a scorpion is longer than the range of a dragon breathing fire. Rhaenys just had to come close to the castle in order to burn it, and as the text acknowledges, the defenders got lucky hitting Meraxe's eye. I don't think it's reasonable to blame her for that. It could had happened to Visenya when she approached the Eyrie, or to Aegon as he burned Harrenhal.

On 11/3/2019 at 1:22 AM, Quoth the raven, said:

To conquer a brutal people, one must be equally brutal.  I know that's not fashionable to say but it is better than going about the job in a half-ass manner, which she did.  Like the saying goes "Go Big or Go Home" is applicable in this situation.  Rhaenys should have bombarded Sunspear with flames and then send in her troops to clean up the resistance in a way that will work.  A smart torturing of a chosen few survivors will reveal where the men are hiding.

The mass murder / torture spree that you suggest (yeah, too bad that it's gone out of fashion...) is what Aegon and Visenya tried to do after Rhaenys' death. They burned practically every Dornish castle, they offered a bounty for anyone who murdered a Dornish lord... we are told that Dorne was left "a blasted, burning ruin" and yet, the Dornish continued to oppose them and the populace kept supporting their lords.

It's worth noting that at the end Dorne was incorporated into the realm through pacts and marriages. Where the great Aegon the Conqueror and Daeron the Young Dragon failed, Rhaeny's strategy was the one that ended working.

On 11/4/2019 at 4:49 AM, The Young Maester said:

Seizing it’s important rivers and blockading the kingdom could starve it into submission. 
The Dornish are more than happy with leaving their lands and hiding within the mountains and vast deserts. Why not send your soldiers to patrol the beautiful and fertile lands near the bountiful and drinkable rivers.

The Southern Dornish coast is 400 leagues long, which would make the Greenblood about 150 leagues long. You'd need to place a sizeable contingent every league, and in the places where it is wider, one at each side. And that's just one river. It's a logistical impossibility.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Because Targaryens forever #winning is a pipe dream 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

I agree with other posters, I think she was the least ruthless of the 3 Targaryen siblings, and so would have favored diplomacy and a marriage alliance. Plus, the way the Dornish castles are set up, they could continue to practice guerrilla warfare even if she did burn Sunspear, and they could pick off her troops as they move through Dorne, since fighting a defensive war is probably easier than assaulting their position

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

I agree with other posters, I think she was the least ruthless of the 3 Targaryen siblings, and so would have favored diplomacy and a marriage alliance. Plus, the way the Dornish castles are set up, they could continue to practice guerrilla warfare even if she did burn Sunspear, and they could pick off her troops as they move through Dorne, since fighting a defensive war is probably easier than assaulting their position

Again, that's nonsense in this regard. Rhaenys did burn the Planky Town when the war started (and many other castles before she was killed) - a place that would have been more populous being a town than Sunspear - a mere castle - could ever have.

[The Young Maester]

On 11/10/2019 at 11:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

Again, that's nonsense in this regard. Rhaenys did burn the Planky Town when the war started (and many other castles before she was killed) - a place that would have been more populous being a town than Sunspear - a mere castle - could ever have.

If you put Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys in a pot and had to choose which one is the most ruthless of them all. You’d obviously have Rhaenys at last position. 

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

If you put Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys in a pot and had to choose which one is the most ruthless of them all. You’d obviously have Rhaenys at last position. 

Why?? 

[The Young Maester]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Why?? 

Because Rhaenys is the least ruthless of them all.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Because Rhaenys is the least ruthless of them all.

She's as ruthless and  egomaniac as her siblings, Visenya could get the Eyrie to surrender easy, Rhaenys started rambling about F&B. 

She's the one starting the killing in Dorne, I think that people say that because Rhaenys died soon, so she couldn't play a role in Aenys reign like Visenya in Maegors and  she wasn't a warrior.

[The Young Maester]

Just now, frenin said:

She's as ruthless and  egomaniac as her siblings, Visenya could get the Eyrie to surrender easy, Rhaenys started rambling about F&B. 

She's the one starting the killing in Dorne, I think that people say that because Rhaenys died son, so she couldn't play a role in Aenys reign like Visenya in Maegors and  she wasn't a warrior.

Rhaenys is described as kindhearted whilst Visenya is unforgiving and very serious. Aegon was a Targaryen lord and it was most likely his idea to conquer Westeros. 
This information would make Rhaenys the least ruthless of the siblings by default. 
You can’t put her on the same level as her siblings when its known that Rhaenys was the kind and the sweet one.

[frenin]

21 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Rhaenys is described as kindhearted whilst Visenya is unforgiving and very serious. Aegon was a Targaryen lord and it was most likely his idea to conquer Westeros. 
This information would make Rhaenys the least ruthless of the siblings by default. 
You can’t put her on the same level as her siblings when its known that Rhaenys was the kind and the sweet one.

And yet in war, the one who took a less bloody approach was Visenya, I don't doubt that Visenya was more ruthless in peace time, I very much doubt there were a difference in war time, because i honestly can't find one and  the only i find points that Visenya is more collected and  Rhaenys far more Dany-ish, with the surrender and  the fire & blood.

I can't see a difference when the girl is invested in the same genocidal campaigns  her siblings were.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys certainly cared more about people than Visenya, but she had apparently no problems at all using her dragon to burn both armies and civilians and towns.

[The Young Maester]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

And yet in war, the one who took a less bloody approach was Visenya, I don't doubt that Visenya was more ruthless in peace time, I very much doubt there were a difference in war time, because i honestly can't find one and  the only i find points that Visenya is more collected and  Rhaenys far more Dany-ish, with the surrender and  the fire & blood.

I can't see a difference when the girl is invested in the same genocidal campaigns  her siblings were.

During wartime, its understandable that they all resorted to the same level of ruthlessness. Lords and kings are different during war times. A kind-hearted lord (that cares for his smallfolk) will still pillage villages and castles during wartime if his men are in need of food, or if he also wants to harm the enemys demesnes. 

But by Nature Rhaenys isnt even close to Aegons and Visenyas level. Visenya was definitely the most ruthless of them all, whilst Aegon is the middle ground between Rhaenys and Visenya. 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

During wartime, its understandable that they all resorted to the same level of ruthlessness. Lords and kings are different during war times. A kind-hearted lord (that cares for his smallfolk) will still pillage villages and castles during wartime if his men are in need of food, or if he also wants to harm the enemys demesnes. 

But by Nature Rhaenys isnt even close to Aegons and Visenyas level. Visenya was definitely the most ruthless of them all, whilst Aegon is the middle ground between Rhaenys and Visenya. 

And i'd agree if people didn't say that she didn't go for the kill right there because she's not as ruthless as her siblings in wartimes, she's as if not more egomaniac.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/2/2019 at 5:08 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So during the conquest Rhaenys famously met with the Yellow Toad at Sunspear, which was completely abandoned. So why didn't she make Sunspear a second Harrenhal after Meria's refusal to bend the knee? She would at least kill a very capable Dornish leader.

She did burn it before she didn't.