Joe Abercrombie: The Collected Works 3 (Includes A Little Hatred Spoiler discussion)

[red snow]

On 12/6/2019 at 3:12 PM, nah said:

 

I think I also read somewhere that the Dog Man was originally supposed to be a first person POV in the first trilogy, but idk if that's relevant.

 

 

At first i thought you'd forgotten he was a POV in the first trilogy but then realised you were highlighting it was first person. I'm pleased he didn't do that as it would have been very weird and disjointed. I think he got away with it with gorst when he was writing reports back in "heroes" but that wasn't a permanent approach.

[red snow]

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/17/2019 at 3:47 AM, nah said:

It sounds that way being thrust upon the completed trilogy as we know it today, but I think he probably could have made it work in an interesting way. I like it when writers experiment and do weird stuff like that.

Well his death chain POV was definitely a case of experimentation working well for him.

Finally finished "the heroes". I still really enjoy the structure and how Joe covers the spectrum of war tropes and characters but i have to admit the POV characters are a lot weaker than the uniformly excellent ones in the rest of the series (although i recall disliking the ones in "red country" the most). Probably just because I've binged the series and read "a little hatred" and the comparison is more striking. Caulder is great though particularly considering how loathsome he was in "the blade itself" and Whirrun and several non POV characters work really well. Just seems odd how prior to the reread this was my favourite book but now i think it's a toss up between BSC and LAOK. The new book lands high overall but i have to be careful with mixing up "freshness" with quality.

[Bearbert Dondarrion]

Apologies if this has been posted before, skimmed the last few threads and didn’t find it exactly, but there were some related thoughts.

 

Basically, the theory is that Shenkt and Carcolf are Bayaz’s children. Both eaters and both working together against Bayaz. 

Some evidence for this: 

 

- Shenkt is mentioned to have had a little sister. I think I remember he mentioned in his POV that she was blonde as well, but I don’t have the volume BSC at hand to check

-Carcolf’s father is mentioned as “one of those people who held the entire world in contempt”. Sounds like Bayaz to me

-Carcolf describes her sister in law as a “judgemental bitch“. I can totally see somebody describe Vitari in that way. Plus, Vitari and Shenkt have two girls and a boy and Carcolf mentions seeing her nieces

-In Tough Times All Over, there are roughly 3 big factions trying to get the item. Deep and Shallow for Bayaz, Ishri and some agents of her for Khalul and Carcolf. It would make sense for her to work with Shenkt since I doubt he’d let anything like this chaos happen in his backyard without his involvement.

-Shev is introduced to the whole group of Vitari and Monza. It seemed like Carcolf was involved in this introduction and again, it makes sense if she’s Shenkt’s sister

-Shev mentions Carcolf as looking young which would make sense for an unaging eater

 

Now for some problems with the theory:

 

-Why would Vitari take her children to Adua? Shenkt being in Adua to undermine Bayaz makes sense, he might even be the Weaver actually. Best guess I have for Vitari being there with her children is if she’s some sort of Styrian ambassador to the Union. Her relationship with Glokta isn’t awful and she mentioned that she would have to eventually fight Glokta in politics.

- Carcolf easily got beaten by that random mook. A bit weird if she’s an Eater but possible since the bless/curse of being an Eater is not consitent so her might not grant any physical strenght

 

[The hairy bear]

6 hours ago, Bearbert Dondarrion said:

Basically, the theory is that Shenkt and Carcolf are Bayaz’s children. Both eaters and both working together against Bayaz.

It's hard to believe that Carcolf is an eater. We are in his mind in Though Times All Over and there's no hint she has any kind of superpowers. Not only she is nearly killed by a no-one, but she is genuinely afraid to die.

She also thinks to herself that her father told her that "A person should stick to her principles", which is something not very Bayazish.

6 hours ago, Bearbert Dondarrion said:

Shenkt is mentioned to have had a little sister. I think I remember he mentioned in his POV that she was blonde as well, but I don’t have the volume BSC at hand to check

It's probably an elder sister, since he remembers her singing to him when he was a child. And there's no mention of the color of her hair in the only paragraph she's mentioned:

Shenkt hummed to himself as he walked down the shabby corridor, his footfalls making not the slightest sound. The exact tune always somehow eluded him. A nagging fragment of something his sister sang when he was a child. He could see the sunlight still, through her hair, the window at her back, face in shadow. All long ago, now. All faded, like cheap paints in the sun. He had never been much of a singer himself. But he hummed, at least, and imagined his sister’s voice singing along with him, and that was some comfort.

Also, the kind of feelings that evoke Shenkt's thoughts seem to imply his sister died long ago, and it's only a faded memory in a distant past. Honestly, I don't think that there's anything here to base a theory on.

 

ETA: we can also discard the idea that Shenkt was the son of Bayaz, because of:

He would very much have liked to be a baker, had he not been… what he was. Had he never been brought before his old master.

[Bearbert Dondarrion]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's hard to believe that Carcolf is an eater. We are in his mind in Though Times All Over and there's no hint she has any kind of superpowers. Not only she is nearly killed by a no-one, but she is genuinely afraid to die.

She also thinks to herself that her father told her that "A person should stick to her principles", which is something not very Bayazish.

It's probably an elder sister, since he remembers her singing to him when he was a child. And there's no mention of the color of her hair in the only paragraph she's mentioned:

Shenkt hummed to himself as he walked down the shabby corridor, his footfalls making not the slightest sound. The exact tune always somehow eluded him. A nagging fragment of something his sister sang when he was a child. He could see the sunlight still, through her hair, the window at her back, face in shadow. All long ago, now. All faded, like cheap paints in the sun. He had never been much of a singer himself. But he hummed, at least, and imagined his sister’s voice singing along with him, and that was some comfort.

Also, the kind of feelings that evoke Shenkt's thoughts seem to imply his sister died long ago, and it's only a faded memory in a distant past. Honestly, I don't think that there's anything here to base a theory on.

 

ETA: we can also discard the idea that Shenkt was the son of Bayaz, because of:

He would very much have liked to be a baker, had he not been… what he was. Had he never been brought before his old master.

Fair enough about some of these points, but I could feasibly explain most of them. Shenkt could very well be a bastard son so him being brought to Bayaz would make sense. So the idea can’t be dismissed completely

And the part about principles is exactly what Bayaz would say, not something Bayaz would apply himself obviously. Rings a bit like the nonsense Bayaz fed to Jezal.

We also don’t know what powers being an Eater give exactly. It’s mentioned that it’s unique for every Eater. Having one without physical strenghtening would not be impossible. 

 

I have nothing to say about how his thoughts about his sister ring, but it wouldn’t be the first time Joe retconned something and I don’t think anything in the text makes the theory impossible. Yeah, there are certain gaps for sure and I’m not convinced at all, but it could work

[SeanF]

I wonder if Shenkt, Carcolf, and Vitari will turn up at any point in this story.

I don't think there's much more to Carcolf's story than we've seen so far.  She's a spy, thief, con artist, and either lesbian or bisexual.

[Jerol]

I just finished the new book this morning. It's good to be back in Joe's world, even if it means being covered in mud, blood, and shit. This was a helluva ride and mostly unpredictable. I love how the two big conflicts (the rebellion and the battle), which most authors would save for the end of the book, happen in the center. It is the fallout from these events that drives the rest of the story. I did have to spend about 45 minutes on the First Law Wiki, reacquainting myself with a lot of fine details that I've lost since I read the first trilogy. I totally forgot about Jezal and Ardee, so I had to wonder about the claim that Savine was a brother-fucker. 

Leo topping Stour would be excellent but I don't see their "friendship" going any other way other than Stour's eventual betrayal. Too bad, because the buttsecks deserves a little representation in this world. Prince Orso is at least one of those guys that would have "experimented". 

All in all, a stellar effort from Joe and I eagerly await the next two books. Gotta know what that white horse on the broken tower is all about! And now on to Gideon the Ninth. 

[SeanF]

When you think about it, Prince Andrew has quite a bit in common with Crown Prince Ladisla, from the original trilogy.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Is anyone else frustrated with the drastic decrease in magic with every new novel? At this point, it’s more like faux historical fiction.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

Is anyone else frustrated with the drastic decrease in magic with every new novel? At this point, it’s more like faux historical fiction.

It's not a big issue for me.   But, I did like the demonic elements of the first trilogy, and thought that more could have been made of them.

[BigFatCoward]

2 hours ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

Is anyone else frustrated with the drastic decrease in magic with every new novel? At this point, it’s more like faux historical fiction.

I feel its deliberate. So much fantasy has to increase the fantastical to make things make sense or clear up plot holes.

I feel that it's been well explained and thought through. 

Also, fuck Bayaz. 

[HexMachina]

Yeah the decrease in magic is a deliberate plot point. Even Bayaz decides to move with the times and use new forms of “magic” (i.e. machines, industrial tech etc) to achieve his ends 

[Varysblackfyre321]

 I find the decrease in interest of the supernatural...odd. 

Bayaz looks to be an immortal. And although is never commented as ever really looking weak or unhealthy(barring circumstances where’d he use some grand spell or something)  I mean machines are great, but if magic could literally make you live hundreds, if not thousands a year's I imagine many nobles would  put everything they had into finding out how to use it. 

[Darth Richard II]

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I find the decrease in interest of the supernatural...odd. 

Bayaz looks to be an immortal. And although is never commented as ever really looking weak or unhealthy(barring circumstances where’d he use some grand spell or something)  I mean machines are great, but if magic could literally make you live hundreds, if not thousands a year's I imagine many nobles would  put everything they had into finding out how to use it. 

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[A True Kaniggit]

11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I find the decrease in interest of the supernatural...odd. 

Bayaz looks to be an immortal. And although is never commented as ever really looking weak or unhealthy(barring circumstances where’d he use some grand spell or something)  I mean machines are great, but if magic could literally make you live hundreds, if not thousands a year's I imagine many nobles would  put everything they had into finding out how to use it. 

I thought a high aptitude for magic was something you had to be born with. You couldn’t just learn it. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I thought a high aptitude for magic was something you had to be born with. You couldn’t just learn it. 

Possibly. But my main point is that interest in Magic would increase. Even if most nobles simply could never do a lick of magic, the intrinsic power it seems to offer should be appealing they'd dedicated themselves to trying to unlock. If George Washington was found out to have never died and lived for centuries, and is in virtually perfect health, I imagine many people would be scrambling to find out how. 

And if he said he did so because of the Judea-Christian God I imagine many people would become Christian. 

[A True Kaniggit]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Possibly. But my main point is that interest in Magic would increase. Even if most nobles simply could never do a lick of magic, the intrinsic power it seems to offer should be appealing they'd dedicated themselves to trying to unlock. If George Washington was found out to have never died and lived for centuries, and is in virtually perfect health, I imagine many people would be scrambling to find out how. 

And if he said he did so because of the Judea-Christian God I imagine many people would become Christian. 

Ok. Yeah, that makes more sense.

 

[A True Kaniggit]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Enough of this. Richard II, release him.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Enough of this. Richard II, release him.

This bickering is pointless.

[Maia]

15 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I feel that it's been well explained and thought through.

Has it, though? IMHO, the story of Euz and his sons closing the doors to Hell which was the source of all magic wasn't entirely satisfying and struck me as about as historical as the Bible, despite the Magi still being around. It isn't like they are interested in spreading the truth about the past. For one thing, is there any reason to think that these doors can't be opened again? For another, why are there tons of Eaters running around, whose numbers or strength don't seem to be diminishing? I mean, you have to have magical aptitude to become one, right? A normal person just practicing cannibalism wouldn't do it.

Anyway, magic diminishing as rational thinking and technology evolve isn't a particularly original premise - it used to be one of the staples  of the fantasy genre, particularly of the books utilising well-known RL myths and legends as inspiration or positioning themselves as our fictional past. Even LOTR is presented as the last hurrah of magic. Abercrombie does it very well, granted, but I don't think that it would spoil anything or take anything away from his take on Industrial Revolution if he chose to increase the supernatural element. Mass production and bespoke, unique creations can and do coexist iRL.

And I 100% agree with @Varysblackfyre321 that Bayaz's apparent immortality should excite imaginations. Think about the longevity of the alchemy craze iRL without any evidence that philosopher's stone actually existed!