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Joe Abercrombie: The Collected Works 3 (Includes A Little Hatred Spoiler discussion)

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Glokta falls from power, perhaps?

Maybe.  It has be something more to ruin her fortune no? Maybe a speculation gone wrong. Maybe the revelation of her illegitimacy and bastardy?

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56 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Maybe.  It has be something more to ruin her fortune no? Maybe a speculation gone wrong. Maybe the revelation of her illegitimacy and bastardy?

Yes, that could be it.  

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I finally got around to reading ALH and I enjoyed it. The only worry for me is that the powers will not really change as a result of this trilogy: i.e. whoever gets the throne in their region or whatever other manner of government will arise, they will still be nothing more than helpless puppets to Magi. It will feel like meaningless struggle and maneuvering by our POV characters when in the large scale the powers remain the same (again). I think arriving at the same status after another trilogy would not be all that enjoyable as a conclusion for me personally. As I also re-read Red Country as a result of the potential cameo by Logen, I wonder whether what Cosca says will play into it - something to the effect of that no matter how big you are, against change you will be as helpless as a cow against ants. Sounds somewhat in line with a large scale revolution.

Anyways, are there any good theories on what the Bloody-Nine is up to (or what he is, for that matter)? I feel like a further conclusion to that character could have a place in the story. I mean him riding off into the sunset in Red Country after saying "a man's gotta be what he is", sounds awfully a lot like he went looking for trouble. The nearest and easiest guess would be Conthus' campaign. In the light of the new trilogy, I could see Bloody-Nine (not Logen) as a Burner too of course if it actually was him in Valbeck. As much as I love the character, I don't really wish for him to have a significant (or even any) presence in the the new trilogy but maybe hearing a story told by someone else (or seen through Rikke) as to what happened to him could be cool.

 

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If Logen is alive, he's an old old man now, based on his lifestyle he's almost certainly dead. I don't want to see him again, his ending was perfect and as good as it was ever going to go for him. It was nice to see him in Red Country, but let's focus on the new characters.

The status quo not changing as you said: it has pretty rapidly changed between books, Gurkhul has collapsed in on itself, Styria is kicking the Union's ass, and the Empire is on the rise. That all happened off screen, I don't see why at least some events of similar magnitude can happen in the next two books.

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I wouldn't want to see him as a character either - the Red Country already felt like a repetition for the character and he wasn't even a POV there. However, I wouldn't call literally riding into the sunset after beating unbeatable odds again a perfect ending - but I suppose it is true that it's as good as it gets for him. And although I still would like to hear an ending to his story (told by someone else), I do not see a good way to do it.

I was mostly thinking about the status quo on the stage we're currently seeing - the Union and the North. But yes, I'm hoping it will be something similar to what happened in Gurkhul (provided it still doesn't belong to Khalul). Savine wrestling control away from Valint & Balk would be sweet. I don't mind bittersweet or even downright miserable endings, but for me personally would be a bit of a bore to see just the rearrangement/replacement of some pieces: getting the same sentiment of people attaining their desired position only to discover they're owned by Bayaz.

Also I don't remember - did Monza manage to establish her rule without accepting a debt to Bayaz? That's also nice.

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2 hours ago, akh said:

Also I don't remember - did Monza manage to establish her rule without accepting a debt to Bayaz? That's also nice.

She did, but only because she had Shenkt as her backer.

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3 hours ago, Rhom said:

She did, but only because she had Shenkt as her backer.

Yeah, doesn’t Yoru Sulfur shkw up like “hey, guess you need some help, fortunately the bank of Valint & Balk doesn’t much care that you poisoned one of our branches just sign away your soul here, here and here.” And Shenkt enters like, “Nope, goodbye little man.”

I would quite enjoy seeing Shenkt and Bayaz interact, actually.

I don’t see this trilogy ending with the status quo unchanged. I woukd be shocked if Bayaz retained his power and influence, and wouldn’t be too surprised if he actually dies.

Regarding the blurb, my first thought on Savine was someone discovers the incest (perhaps after some schemer reveals her parentage to position her for the throne, cough, Bayaz)

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44 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I would quite enjoy seeing Shenkt and Bayaz interact, actually.

I don’t see this trilogy ending with the status quo unchanged. I woukd be shocked if Bayaz retained his power and influence, and wouldn’t be too surprised if he actually dies.

It feels like Rikke and Bayaz are being set up to be antagonists like Father Yarvi and Grandmother Wexen.  After all, as a wise man once said, knowledge is the root of all power. 

Edited by Gaston de Foix

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On 3/4/2020 at 6:29 PM, akh said:

I wouldn't want to see him as a character either - the Red Country already felt like a repetition for the character and he wasn't even a POV there. However, I wouldn't call literally riding into the sunset after beating unbeatable odds again a perfect ending - but I suppose it is true that it's as good as it gets for him. And although I still would like to hear an ending to his story (told by someone else), I do not see a good way to do it.

I was mostly thinking about the status quo on the stage we're currently seeing - the Union and the North. But yes, I'm hoping it will be something similar to what happened in Gurkhul (provided it still doesn't belong to Khalul). Savine wrestling control away from Valint & Balk would be sweet. I don't mind bittersweet or even downright miserable endings, but for me personally would be a bit of a bore to see just the rearrangement/replacement of some pieces: getting the same sentiment of people attaining their desired position only to discover they're owned by Bayaz.

Also I don't remember - did Monza manage to establish her rule without accepting a debt to Bayaz? That's also nice.

Pretty much everything except Westport.  My impression is the Union won some battles and sieges but could not hold what they had taken.

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If Bayaz is to die, please let it be extremely painful and let him see all his machinations fall into ruin. 

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On 3/3/2020 at 1:29 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

So let's speculate.  What destroys Savine's judgement, fortune and reputation?

 

Bayaz, in retaliation for her refusal to become next in the chain of his puppets and/or in an attempt to bring her to heel. Glokta is toast, I assume, either from natural causes, due to Bayaz or assassinated by one of his many enemies.

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On 2/6/2020 at 5:32 AM, Maia said:

Has it, though? IMHO, the story of Euz and his sons closing the doors to Hell which was the source of all magic wasn't entirely satisfying and struck me as about as historical as the Bible, despite the Magi still being around. It isn't like they are interested in spreading the truth about the past. For one thing, is there any reason to think that these doors can't be opened again? For another, why are there tons of Eaters running around, whose numbers or strength don't seem to be diminishing? I mean, you have to have magical aptitude to become one, right? A normal person just practicing cannibalism wouldn't do it.

Anyway, magic diminishing as rational thinking and technology evolve isn't a particularly original premise - it used to be one of the staples  of the fantasy genre, particularly of the books utilising well-known RL myths and legends as inspiration or positioning themselves as our fictional past. Even LOTR is presented as the last hurrah of magic. Abercrombie does it very well, granted, but I don't think that it would spoil anything or take anything away from his take on Industrial Revolution if he chose to increase the supernatural element. Mass production and bespoke, unique creations can and do coexist iRL.

And I 100% agree with @Varysblackfyre321 that Bayaz's apparent immortality should excite imaginations. Think about the longevity of the alchemy craze iRL without any evidence that philosopher's stone actually existed!

1.  The story of Euz and the gates are repeated to Ferro Maljinn by the voices.  Maybe they are lying or repeating commonly accepted lies.  But the truth of the seed's power cannot be denied.  And the voices were clearly interested in having the gates to the Other Side reopened. 

2.  I think the Eaters all acquire some form of immortality.  Look at Mamun's longevity.  The increase in their numbers is not a product of the number of magic users increasing from generation to generation but simply from the old ones not dying. 

3.  I don't know whether magical is restricted or enhanced by genetics.  It's a complicated question because Rikke is clearly born with the long eye.  But I think the tradition of magic that began with Juvens and that Bayaz was trying to pass on to Malacus Quai does not involve genetic inheritance merely prolonged study.  There are clearly multiple magical traditions/techniques/powers in the world of the First Law.  We can make a chart to see if we can pick out commonalities....

4. I buy that Bayaz destroys Savine, either after Glokta's passing or during his lifetime for refusing to accept his designs.  

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5 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Just finished ALH last night and have really enjoyed being caught up by you all on many of the theories.

Was was hoping to get confirmation:

When you all read you do picture Bayaz as physician Andrew Weil, do you not?  

That is remarkably close to what I pictured in my mind.

My brain Bayaz had a more rounded head. Other than that, spot on.

(Actually, brain Bayaz has a less pronounced beard as well)

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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5 hours ago, Triskele said:

Weil is even a constant smiler like Bayaz.  

And slightly manic eyes...

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10 hours ago, Triskele said:

Just finished ALH last night and have really enjoyed being caught up by you all on many of the theories.

Was was hoping to get confirmation:

When you all read you do picture Bayaz as physician Andrew Weil, do you not?  

I'd say that's pretty close at the very least.

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11 hours ago, Triskele said:

Just finished ALH last night and have really enjoyed being caught up by you all on many of the theories.

Was was hoping to get confirmation:

When you all read you do picture Bayaz as physician Andrew Weil, do you not?  

My Bayaz is fully bald, and his beard is much more trimmed. Also, I tend to picture him with blue eyes. 

Edited by Corvinus

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I would say that cocaine addiction coupled with PTSD as well as potential loss of father figure in her life causes Savine's downfall. Glimpse of this we could see when she arrives with (I forgot the guy's name, the brute with the ladders tattoos whose daughter saved Savine) ... at the office of that architect she extorted at the beginning of the book. It's mentioned how she arrives there coked up and even she I think comments how she is not thinking clearly. 

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1 hour ago, Jerry Drake said:

I would say that cocaine addiction coupled with PTSD as well as potential loss of father figure in her life causes Savine's downfall. Glimpse of this we could see when she arrives with (I forgot the guy's name, the brute with the ladders tattoos whose daughter saved Savine) ... at the office of that architect she extorted at the beginning of the book. It's mentioned how she arrives there coked up and even she I think comments how she is not thinking clearly. 

Agreed.  

Bayaz has to have a pointy rather than bushy beard.  Bushy/ungroomed beards belong to mad scientists and Terry Pratchett.  Pointy beards belong to schemers.  The graphic novel has this depiction: https://firstlaw.fandom.com/wiki/Bayaz

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15 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Agreed.  

Bayaz has to have a pointy rather than bushy beard.  Bushy/ungroomed beards belong to mad scientists and Terry Pratchett.  Pointy beards belong to schemers.  The graphic novel has this depiction: https://firstlaw.fandom.com/wiki/Bayaz

So basically George Hearst from deadwood?

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