How should 'House of the Dragon' go?

[Eltharion21]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

I said "better" for a reason. Rhaenys, Daeron, Corlys, Addam, Helaena, Tyland, etc. are all much better people who would probably make much better rulers than Aegon II or Rhaenyra. Hell, even Alicent and Otto would be better.

As for Criston Cole, I meant more that I'd prefer him to have a more dramatic death and that he win at least one dramatic victory before that.

As things stand, I don't find the Dance to be anywhere near as violent as it should be.

I kinda agree that it is underwhelming a bit, not having lot of major battle feats or epic duels by important characters during the very conflict.

Ser Criston Cole had excelled martially in combat before the war in various tourneys, though stakes feel much lower then.

Few moments where he gets credit during the war most notably his tactics during the siege of Rook's Rest when Rhaenys appears on top of Red Queen, burning and killing men in droves:

" Ser Criston Cole was not dismayed. Aegon’s Hand had expected this, counted on it."

  Despite efforts being focused on killing the rider she turned to be capable foe until:

"Then came an answering roar. Two more winged shapes appeared: the king astride Sunfyre the Golden, and his brother Aemond upon Vhagar. Criston Cole had sprung his trap, and Rhaenys had come snatching at the bait. Now the teeth closed round her."

He gets kudos also in one of his final mention's, since in part he amended natural incompetence of Aegon and Aemond through guidance.

"Yet no war can be counted as won whilst foes remain unconquered. The Kingmaker, Ser Criston Cole, had been brought down, but somewhere in the realm Aegon II, the king he had made, remained alive and free."

He also asked Aemond to retreat from Harenhall and join up with Hightower army a sound strategy, with support of Vhagar they would probably make it if not for that dimwit.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Few moments where he gets credit during the war most notably his tactics during the siege of Rook's Rest when Rhaenys appears on top of Red Queen, burning and killing men in droves:

" Ser Criston Cole was not dismayed. Aegon’s Hand had expected this, counted on it."

  Despite efforts being focused on killing the rider she turned to be capable foe until:

"Then came an answering roar. Two more winged shapes appeared: the king astride Sunfyre the Golden, and his brother Aemond upon Vhagar. Criston Cole had sprung his trap, and Rhaenys had come snatching at the bait. Now the teeth closed round her."

Sure, but that is at best a Pyrrhic victory. Criston Cole nearly got his king killed in that battle, and the king's golden dragon crippled. And for what? To win Rook's Rest? To kill a single dragon and a single dragonrider of the enemy side - and the least important one insofar as claims were concerned?

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard should not risk his king's life in such insignificant a battle.

He was very likely that Aegon II wasn't in the shape to feed him to Sunfyre thereafter (or at least to dismiss him even more curtly than he had previously dismissed his grandfather).

In the long run this battle led to the loss of KL and the eventual ruin of the Greens. Cole was not only a Kingmaker, he was also a man who greatly contributed to the policies that ensured the reign of Aegon II would be very short.

But this battle sort of illustrates how difficult it would be to portray the Dance faithfully and make it compelling. None of the battles - especially not the dragon battles - are fought to gain a military advantage or actually deal the enemy a major blow (unless you pretend that killing a dragonrider is a victory in and of itself - which would be silly - it would make much more sense to try win the allegiance of enemy dragonriders or at least convince them to remain neutral).

[Eltharion21]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but that is at best a Pyrrhic victory. Criston Cole nearly got his king killed in that battle, and the king's golden dragon crippled. And for what? To win Rook's Rest? To kill a single dragon and a single dragonrider of the enemy side - and the least important one insofar as claims were concerned?

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard should not risk his king's life in such insignificant a battle.

He was very likely that Aegon II wasn't in the shape to feed him to Sunfyre thereafter (or at least to dismiss him even more curtly than he had previously dismissed his grandfather).

In the long run this battle led to the loss of KL and the eventual ruin of the Greens. Cole was not only a Kingmaker, he was also a man who greatly contributed to the policies that ensured the reign of Aegon II would be very short.

But this battle sort of illustrates how difficult it would be to portray the Dance faithfully and make it compelling. None of the battles - especially not the dragon battles - are fought to gain a military advantage or actually deal the enemy a major blow (unless you pretend that killing a dragonrider is a victory in and of itself - which would be silly - it would make much more sense to try win the allegiance of enemy dragonriders or at least convince them to remain neutral).

Greens had effectively only three dragons  Vhagar, Sunfyre and Tessarion. Dreamfyre couldn't have another rider while its rider lived. 

They had to try to reduce advantage of dragons of their enemies. Caraxes, Syrax, Maelys.  Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes were thriving and would mature faster than hatch-lings of the greens. Silverwing, Seasmoke, Vermithor, Sheepstealer, Grey Ghost, Cannibal potentially could be recruited.

Rook's Rest itself wasn't goal, it was a trap meant probably for Rhaenyra ( depending if Greens had some information of proximity of dragonriders) or at least a dragon, that is evident from having two dragons waiting in ambush. 

Targeting the rider it is possible they tried to even take control of dragon or they thought it would be less effective with rider dead. 

Trying to cut head of snake seems to be major strategy of Ser Cole during the war. (sending Ser Arryk for assassination, trying to take Harenhall)

Aegon himself accepted to participate in battle, it is risk that every leader must make himself, as they lacked Dragonriders to counter opponents it was necessary. 

Comparing it with leadership on opposing side, Rhaenyra pretty much avoided mounting her dragon in battle, an her kin went in her stead and got killed, when she eventually got executed war didn't stop anyway. I doubt war would stop either until Greens had Aegons heirs and weren't fatigued even with Aegon II dead.

 Even with 3 or 4 dragons Greens could hardly win in pitched battle against all of Dragons if they got tamed, time seemed to favor more Blacks especially since North needed time to gather forces. So in the end I feel Cole's tactic was sound.

Capture of King's Landing even though it was major blunder of Greens, in the bit longer run effectively led to Rhaenyra's downfall, gripping tightly the throne and capital who she couldn't hold, her being ousted by rabble and death of every Targaryen dragon in the city. Green centers of power still exist and historically continue to thrive.

Corlys diplomacy which Rhaenyra shunned actually won the war.

Even one of most heroic engagements when Addam Velaryon attacks Green Camp in Tumbleton, is bit underwhelming, despite routing enemy army, he doesn't face neither of betrayers and dies fighting riderless Vermithor, after the dance of Seasmoke and Tessarion.

( Which might be some sort of mating dance, if Dareon was dead at the time it puts question on would that dragon be aggressive to others and could it be lured to become mount of  other side)

 

However they do adaptation, I hope to try to make it not too much one sided in conflicts, even though many are written like that , it would make most engagements  annoying and underwhelming.

Riverlands forces would also be ridiculously overpowered if represented as in novel, since they would win major battles against Westerlands, Crownlands, Reach and Stormlands almost single-handedly.

 

 

[The Grey Wolf]

@Eltharion21

I agree. The Riverlands are OP with how they continually field new armies while every other region can't or doesn't.

And most of the battles being boring, one-sided affairs.

[Lord Varys]

Let's not make this so much about the Dance but about how it could be realistically/fittingly portrayed.

In principle there cannot be any issue aside from taste/wishes that things were different for personal reasons that this or that region/house does not fully commit themselves to the war. I personally find that the Lannisters behave exactly like one expect them to. Despite the fact that one of their own sits on the Green Council they don't fully commit themselves nor rush into the fighting. They have to be commanded by Aemond to bestir themselves - and they only do so because they expect to get Vhagar's help when they finally reach Harrenhal.

What's problematic is the idea that the few men Jason took with him to war would actually leave the Westerlands defenseless against the Ironborn. Sure, Dalton destroys the ships and all, but there should be more than enough men to actually protect the coastal castles, towns, and villages - at least once the Lannisters finally start to regroup.

In that sense the Riverlands are not overpowered - they are merely much more committed than (m)any other parties in the war. They might yet pull off similar stunts in the main series if they are finally united under one leader - which Robb never did considering he allowed them to go back home and guard their own lands.

As for proper dragon warfare - there George really dropped the ball. Dragonstone and KL are less than a day away on dragonback. Meaning Vhagar, Dreamfyre, and Sunfyre could have attacked Dragonstone and captured/killed Rhaenyra before she and her party had even learned that Viserys I was dead. They could have flown to the island in the night and transformed the citadel into another Harrenhal before so much as any of Rhaenyra's family had gotten out of bed (much less on the back of a dragon).

Vice versa, the same thing is true for the Blacks. Once they learned what had transpired they, too, could have flown to KL under cover of darkness, taken possession of the Dragonpit to separate most/all of the Green dragons from their riders to then force the castle into surrender (or burn it to the ground).

The Rook's Rest thing is no good trap because it is a complete gamble - if Syrax, Meleys, Caraxes and some of the younger dragons had showed up (not to mention others claimed by new riders) Vhagar and Sunfyre would have been ripped apart. Just because Daemon flew to Harrenhal doesn't mean he cannot jump Caraxes and fly somewhere else. Not to mention that targeting dragons was stupid of both sides. They should have targeted the riders to allow their sides to claim the dragons of the other side.

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, J.O. said:

How the seasons will be:

Season 1: from the last years of viserys to blood and cheese.

Season 2: from the war in the riverlands to battle of rook rest and aemond is named protector of the realm.

Season 3: the war continues. Battle of Lakeshore ( I think they will make Jason Lannister to live up to this battle). The dragonseeds story. Battle of the Gullet. 

Season 4: Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing. Aemond napalms the riverlands. Butcher's Ball. Aegon II arrives to dragonstone. Battle of Tumbleton I.

Season 5: Rhaenyra ruling KL. Addam Velaryon escapes, Corlys imprisioned. Aegon II fight with Baela. Battle Above the God's eye. Riots in KL, the dragonpit attack. Rhaenyra leaves KL. Battle of Tumbleton 2.

Season 6: Rhaenyra escapes to Dragonstone and her final days. Aegon II goes to KL. Battle of the Kingsroad. Hour of the wolf. Aegon III coronation.

That is a better timetable for the Dance (although I definitely think we need more buildup).

In fact, part of the problem of the source material that not much is happening between or with characters aside from battles, meaning if one wanted to stretch some of those events across an entire season one would have to invent either many tantalizing/interesting subplots or a lot of filler.

[The Grey Wolf]

The Dance would benefit from more battles and factions.

[J.O.]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a better timetable for the Dance (although I definitely think we need more buildup).

I don't think there is going to be a lot of build up. They need to have some main characters aged up early, Aegon II, Halaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jacaerys (who is an important character in the first seasons), Lucerys. They need to establish the main cast at least since episode 3. (I'm thinking about the show being presented to casual viewers).

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

It isn't a Dance of Dragons show.  It's Fire and Blood brought to the small screen.

HBO would he doing a great disservice to ASOIAF fans if they didn't include Aegon torching Harrenhal, his rivalry with Argilac Durrandon and the first Dornish war and Rhaeny's death at Hellholt.

Would love to see Naomi Watts portray Queen Visenya for a season or two.  

[The hairy bear]

12 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

It isn't a Dance of Dragons show.  It's Fire and Blood brought to the small screen.

George's not a blog post on the matter explained that the show will contain the stories contained "The Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and the Queen", and then made a reference to "Fire and Blood". The fact that he doesn't mention "The Sons of the Dragon" can only lead to the conclusion that the series will be about the Dance and its prelude.

[biosnake20]

New Blog from GRRM

 

Quote

Those unfamiliar with the way television works may wonder… if Ryan Condal wrote the pilot and the bible, what did Wes and Claire and Ti do?  The answer is: a lot.  They sat with Ryan every day in a writer’s room at HBO for months, talking story, going over drafts, giving notes, correcting errors (not that Ryan or I ever made any, no sir, not us), catching inconsistencies, discussing character and plot, offering ideas and suggestions, filling in gaps, breaking down the episodes to come and drawing up a roadmap for the first season and all the seasons to follow. 

 

[BlackLightning]

I think this show should include Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Perhaps in their later years.

Because the true beginning of the Dance starts with Jaehaerys' belief that women cannot (or should not) rule, Alysanne's reaction to Jaehaerys' deeply flawed belief system and the complicated lives of their children and heirs.

[BlackLightning]

Not very optimistic though.

Even though the cast is smaller and the premise simpler, this can still be a hot mess. Because it's so complicated and intricate and takes place over such a longer period of time.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think this show should include Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Perhaps in their later years.

Because the true beginning of the Dance starts with Jaehaerys' belief that women cannot (or should not) rule, Alysanne's reaction to Jaehaerys' deeply flawed belief system and the complicated lives of their children and heirs.

I don't think they would have to go that far back, but George's own narrative structure is that 'the root of all evil', i.e. the ultimate cause of the Dance of the Dragons, begins with the succession of Jaehaerys I, namely with the Great Council of 101 AC.

On the conceptual/symbolic level there is no doubt that it taking place at Harrenhal is no coincidence - George puts it there to give the reader the opportunity to interpret the succession/the Realm itself and House Targaryen as 'cursed' - just as the Tourney of Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring also 'cursed' all attendants/the Realm as such, laying the groundwork for Robert's Rebellion and setting things in motion that continue to plague Westeros even during the main series.

In that sense I'm all for this being the natural starting point. It would mean they would have to take their time to get to the Dance, but how broad a narrative the Dance has to be is actually another question. We certainly don't need the entire Ironborn/Westerlands story to make sense of it.

In fact, aside from some crucial campaigns/locations (Riverlands campaigns, Hightower army and eventual Tumbleton, Kingsroad in the end) there is not much campaigning outside of the Crownlands to be shown - much more important would be the personal stories of the core cast and how the war affects them.

[BlackLightning]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think they would have to go that far back, but George's own narrative structure is that 'the root of all evil', i.e. the ultimate cause of the Dance of the Dragons, begins with the succession of Jaehaerys I, namely with the Great Council of 101 AC.

On the conceptual/symbolic level there is no doubt that it taking place at Harrenhal is no coincidence - George puts it there to give the reader the opportunity to interpret the succession/the Realm itself and House Targaryen as 'cursed' - just as the Tourney of Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring also 'cursed' all attendants/the Realm as such, laying the groundwork for Robert's Rebellion and setting things in motion that continue to plague Westeros even during the main series.

In that sense I'm all for this being the natural starting point. It would mean they would have to take their time to get to the Dance, but how broad a narrative the Dance has to be is actually another question. We certainly don't need the entire Ironborn/Westerlands story to make sense of it.

In fact, aside from some crucial campaigns/locations (Riverlands campaigns, Hightower army and eventual Tumbleton, Kingsroad in the end) there is not much campaigning outside of the Crownlands to be shown - much more important would be the personal stories of the core cast and how the war affects them.

I see what you're saying. But the succession of Jaehaerys I and how his daughters were ineligible was the root of the marital strife between the king and the queen. Marital strife that ultimately went unresolved.

Notice how Aegon and his sons had very different views concerning women in power than Jaehaerys and those who would come after him.

I agree: but I feel the western Greyjoy/Lannister theater of the story does make for good TV.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I see what you're saying. But the succession of Jaehaerys I and how his daughters were ineligible was the root of the marital strife between the king and the queen. Marital strife that ultimately went unresolved.

I really think that should be part of a Jaehaerys I series. There is a lot of potential there for a great series, sort of like I, Claudius but less evil, with Jaehaerys and Alysanne as father and mother of the country, giving us the stories of all their children and some more, with the great lords of the Realm, etc.

20 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Notice how Aegon and his sons had very different views concerning women in power than Jaehaerys and those who would come after him.

I'd expect the succession thing can be made clear enough with the Great Council. One would also reference Prince Aemon's death and the original passing over of Rhaenys, of course.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I really think that should be part of a Jaehaerys I series. There is a lot of potential there for a great series, sort of like I, Claudius but less evil, with Jaehaerys and Alysanne as father and mother of the country, giving us the stories of all their children and some more, with the great lords of the Realm, etc.

I'd expect the succession thing can be made clear enough with the Great Council. One would also reference Prince Aemon's death and the original passing over of Rhaenys, of course.

Okay. I'm just saying that the succession talk makes for an very ambitious first episode.

A Jaehaerys and Alysanne series would be stellar. As as matter of fact, I think this whole House of the Dragon series can adapt the entire F&B installment if they wanted to with its climax being Aegon V's reign and the Tragedy of Summerhall. 

[J.O.]

About casting

I think we might see actors that have worked before in Hbo. (Probably in boardwalk empire, rome,etc).

James Purefoy can fit some roles like Criston Cole, Ormund Hightower, Lord Peake.

Michael Pitt and Charlie Plummer can play Aegon II, Jace Velaryon or Aemond Targaryen.

[Lord Varys]

On 11/20/2019 at 5:23 AM, J.O. said:

James Purefoy can fit some roles like Criston Cole, Ormund Hightower, Lord Peake.

Purefoy could be a good older Daemon. His Antony clearly is as erratic and changeable as Daemon would be. The 'Rome' Polly Walker would also have been a great Rhaenyra but I guess she is somewhat too old by now.

 

[Lord Lannister]

Honestly, at this point, I don't care. They might be wiser to let some more time pass before going ahead with a spinoff, but regardless they have to earn my loyalty back. Once a full season has aired, and if it hasn't gotten blasted too much, I might take a look at it. At this point, I'm convinced this is just going to be another Star Wars situation, they'll keep cranking out product without a care for quality because they can cash in on people's nostalgia. It'll keep being like that until the fans stop rewarding it.