Did Varys wed Ned to the trees?

[Narsil4]

This is Varys giving Ned "Red Wine" in the black cells.  

Quote

He drank, a trickle of red leaking from the corner of his plump mouth. "Not the equal of the vintage you offered me the night of the tourney, but no more poisonous than most," he concluded, wiping his lips. "Here."
Ned tried a swallow. "Dregs." He felt as though he were about to bring the wine back up.
"All men must swallow the sour with the sweet. High lords and eunuchs alike. Your hour has come, my lord."

Which seems to be described similarly to Jojen Paste. 

Quote

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated.

Quote

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. 

So if Ned's gifts have been awakened and he is wed to the trees at the time of his death..  

Quote

 "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

What implications could that have? 

Might he be considered more useful for blood magic sacrifices? 
Perhaps in the context of reforging Valyrian Steel.

Or maybe it allowed his soul to escape into the trees upon his death?  
Allowing Bran to eventually access his memories from the net. 

Also, if it was blood, who did it come from?

Ideas?

[Seams]

Nice catch. I've been wondering whether the author wants us to compare tree branches and bones. The fact that Ned's bones are misplaced or have their journey interrupted seemed related to Rattleshirt's "armor" and the way that Arya and some other characters can freely navigate among tree branches. If Ned has a special concoction before his beheading, maybe his bones take on a magical significance, similar to the magic Bran finds in the weirnet.

[Narsil4]

6 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've been wondering whether the author wants us to compare tree branches and bones.

Yea, that does seem to be the case.  

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his own gods kept their temples in the wild places, where the weirwoods spread their bone-white branches.

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Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content

Dragonbone and Ironwood might also have a similar connection. 

23 minutes ago, Seams said:

If Ned has a special concoction before his beheading, maybe he bones take on a magical significance, similar to the magic Bran finds in the weirnet.

Interesting thought, perhaps they would have some symbolic relation to Milkglass/Dawn/Ghost Grass/Other Bones/White Glass Candles/etc. 

[Seams]

15 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

So if Ned's gifts have been awakened and he is wed to the trees at the time of his death..  

Quote

 "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

What implications could that have? 

If the branch / bone comparison is correct, I think you may have fit another piece into the puzzle of this theory:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2016/11/01/them-bones/

@sweetsunray laid out a really interesting and persuasive case for Ned and Catelyn as Osiris and Isis parallels, and for Ned's bones possibly becoming mingled with the bones of murdered septons in the Riverlands. Those bones were carried by the religious sparrows (little birds!) to Baelor's Sept in King's Landing and piled around the statue of Baelor.

What I'm seeing is the building of a "tree" on the steps of the Sept. (And, yes, there is an important pun on step and Sept, and the steps at Baelor's Sept are a key location for crossing in and out of the mainstream world and the Otherworld.)

The Isis / Osiris parallel tells us that Ned becomes an underworld ruler after his death and that his son (Horus, in the Egyptian story) will avenge his murder to recapture rule of the mainstream world.

The more I have worked with the ASOIAF books, the more I have seen GRRM showing us that the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven are variations on a theme; maybe all religions in Westeros are variations on a theme. The Old Gods would use a tree with branches (and a human face); the New Gods would use human bones piled around a petrified human (statue) to create a similar point of worship (and violence - Ned was executed there).

I love the detail about Ned being "wedded to the trees" (or bones) by Varys. This opens all kinds of new possibilities for the role of Varys in the story as well as helping us to understand the purpose of wine.

[Narsil4]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

interesting and persuasive case for Ned and Catelyn as Osiris and Isis parallels

Interesting, there certainly do seem to be some parallels, though I tend to think of things more as a patchwork. So it may not always be helpful to focus so much on just one mythos, as there may be additions, which change the final implications.  

The shattered moon that hatched dragons might also have a parallel to Osiris.
With the Oily Blackstone/Milkglass that fell from the sky perhaps being seen as the blood, bones and heart of a dead god.

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

Those bones were carried by the religious sparrows (little birds!) to Baelor's Sept in King's Landing and piled around the statue of Baelor.

Hmm, that might be symbolic of Neds soul being carried by birds to a stone tree(Weirwood). 

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

the steps at Baelor's Sept are a key location for crossing in and out of the mainstream world and the Otherworld.

The name Weirwood may imply they act as soul-traps. 

Quote

an enclosure of stakes set in a stream as a trap for fish.

 

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

The Old Gods would use a tree with branches (and a human face)

The face seems to imply a sentient soul being contained within. 

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

maybe all religions in Westeros are variations on a theme.

I tend to think that everyone is essentially worshiping divine celestial objects. 

With many of the gods being anthropomorphized pieces of the broken moon god.

So the Seven may be the pieces that fell in the story of Hugor of the Hill.  
The Drowned perhaps being an 8th piece that landed in the ocean. 

On 11/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Seams said:

This opens all kinds of new possibilities for the role of Varys

I also have a suspicion that Varys is a sorceress and was the one burning body parts in the story. 

[FictionIsntReal]

Paste is not wine, and in terms of the PH scale, sour is the opposite of bitter. Varys hates magic, so I don't think he'd be using or drinking some magical concoction.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/6/2019 at 5:22 PM, Narsil4 said:

This is Varys giving Ned "Red Wine" in the black cells.  

Which seems to be described similarly to Jojen Paste. 

So if Ned's gifts have been awakened and he is wed to the trees at the time of his death..  

What implications could that have? 

Might he be considered more useful for blood magic sacrifices? 
Perhaps in the context of reforging Valyrian Steel.

Or maybe it allowed his soul to escape into the trees upon his death?  
Allowing Bran to eventually access his memories from the net. 

Also, if it was blood, who did it come from?

Ideas?

The wine was low quality and not fit to enjoy.  Water was preferable but clean water was not easy to find.

[Narsil4]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Paste is not wine,

The important ingredient may be blood and it may not matter too much how its consumed. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

in terms of the PH scale, sour is the opposite of bitter.

GRRM seems to imply that sour and bitter are the opposite of sweet. 

Quote

I never dreamed how quick the sweet would turn to sour.

Quote

There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet.

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Varys hates magic, 

I personally don't believe him. I think he is more likely to be the sorcerer in his only half true story. 

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The wine was low quality and not fit to enjoy.  Water was preferable but clean water was not easy to find.

I find it hard to believe that Varys would be carrying around terrible wine because good water or wine was difficult for him to find. 

[Seams]

On 11/7/2019 at 9:18 AM, Seams said:

the branch / bone comparison ...

I love the detail about Ned being "wedded to the trees" (or bones) by Varys.

Some more thoughts about this parallel.

Many people have noticed the parallels between Mance and Rhaegar, but @GloubieBoulga is the first and only person (as far as I know) to compare Ned and Rattleshirt. I think she's right. Catelyn spending time with Ned's bones (laid out by the Silent Sisters at Riverrun) and Lady Dustin's talk about Ned's missing bones create an important "Ned is present in his bones" situation that could easily be parallel to Rattleshirt, with his shirt made of bones. (Even earlier, Ned's leg injury involves a broken bone sticking out through the flesh of his leg - a unique injury in the books except for one Stone Man at the Bridge of Dream.)

Perhaps similarly to the way Bran is "wedded" to the trees (and Ned is wedded to his bones?) Melisandre might be said to have "wedded" Mance and Rattleshirt with her ruby glamor: she makes it appear that Mance is burned (in a cage made of branches). The person who is actually burned is Rattleshirt. The glamor - a combination of a ruby and the rattleshirt - causes Mance to live on for some time disguised as Rattleshirt. (Until, we assume, he travels to Winterfell, disguised as Abel the singer, for Ramsey's wedding.)

GRRM is pretty clearly comparing the cage made of branches and suspended over the fire (which is stoked with weirwood branches Melisandre forces the wildlings to throw onto the flames) to Rattleshirt's shirt made out of the bones of his enemies.

I am starting to think about collectors and collections in ASOIAF - the Starks marrying into various bloodlines of petty kings and thereby collecting for House Stark the magic powers of those bloodlines; Rohanne Webber marrying an assortment of old and young husbands; Walder Frey doing the same with wives from various Houses. Oberyn Martell doesn't marry but he does make daughters with a variety of partners. Maester Luwin collects obsidian arrowheads. Characters such as Brienne and Joffrey seem to go through several swords in the course of the story. Ser Clarence Crabb collected the severed heads of people he had slain. Tyrion scrounges up mismatched armor and weapons from piles of used armor (as well as wooden armor he wears when he joins Penny's jousting act).

Rattleshirt's bone collection may be most similar to Tyrion's armor encounters, in that it is used as armor and it is made of mismatched pieces from a variety of sources. I suppose Rattleshirt's bone armor and Tyrion's wooden armor (initially used by Groat) might be another piece of evidence for the bone / branch parallel. Rattleshirt's bone armor then takes on a magical quality when Melisandre uses it to create the glamor that disguises Mance.

So how might these pieces fit together?

• If Mance = Rhaegar and Rattleshirt = Ned, but Melisandre "weds" Mance and Rattleshirt, what does that tell us about Rhaegar and Ned?
• Branches and bones may be similar. 
• What does it mean that Rattleshirt assembles a bone collection? If bones are armor, does that mean that branches are also a form of armor? Doesn't Arya make a sword out of a branch at one point?
• Rattleshirt gives up his bone collection (or it is taken from him) but he is burned in a cage made of branches.
• Mance is forced to wear the bone shirt and to appear in the guise of Rattleshirt.
• Ned loses his head, then his flesh and then his bones are misplaced or misdirected.

And then there is a whole line of inquiry about the role of Varys in "wedding" Ned to the trees (bones) with the wine in the dungeon. If Bloodraven is responsible for wedding Bran to the trees, are we supposed to compare Varys and Bloodraven? Do we compare the Children of the Forest to the Little Birds of Varys?

Should the wine Ned drinks in the dungeon at the Red Keep be compared to the wine that Catelyn sends to Jaime in the dungeon at Riverrun? He rejects it until he is ready to begin trading "truths" with Catelyn.

"Oh, it's truth you want? Be careful, my lady. Tyrion says that people often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste when it's served up."

"I am strong enough to hear anything you care to say."

"As you will, then. But first, if you'd be so kind . . . the wine. My throat is raw."

Catelyn hung the lamp from the door and moved the cup and flagon closer. Jaime sloshed the wine around his mouth before he swallowed. "Sour and vile," he said, "but it will do."

... Lannister poured, drank, poured, and stared into his wine cup. "This wine seems to be improving as I drink it. Imagine that. ..."

(ACoK, Chap. 55, Catelyn VII)

Does Catelyn wed Jaime to the trees by providing him with wine in the dungeon? If it's not trees or bones for Jaime, maybe Catelyn is wedding him to ... Brienne? The two traveling companions do begin their journey together the minute that Jaime finishes the wine. Maybe she weds him to honor or to keeping his oaths, turning him into a true knight? Bran's ambition was to become a knight - it would be a nice, ironic parallel if Catelyn "weds" Jaime to knighthood with the ritual of the wine in the dungeon.

 

[The Mother of The Others]

It's a bitter cup that's served to those in bitter situations.  The bad wine underlines their sad state of affairs.   That's probably the end of its significance.  For today I'm sticking with bones are bones and branches are branches and Varys rolls the bones without any magic, and Ned now has to live with that boner he pulled (death) for a long time.  

Why would Ned = Rattleshirt?   You mean Ned will appear again as an apparition when someone wears his bones and magicks it up?    That'd bang.   I hope the series ends with the zombies of Ned and Catelyn sitting on their porch swing made of Frey sinews not caring how cold it gets.

 

I like the Osiris body part gathering of evil comet fragments concept.  Someone will be driven to recombine the shards like putting Humpty Dumpty back together again?    The Magicians already did that last season, though, and The Seven are famous for not manifesting miracles or producing any magical relics, so there'd be no trail to follow to track down those Seven comet fragment god-cores.   Euron dredging up the drowned one would be boss!  Maybe some merfolk will swarm his ship and drag him back down into the waves with the prized godding stone while also messing with him dolphin style.  You know.   But we'll probably just get more political intrigue until it kills Euron.   like that time Dawn Marie killed Tori Wilson's father with sex.  Mundane earthbound stuff like that.

[Narsil4]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

"Ned is present in his bones"

That might be the natural state of things, considering how dead faces are used.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Rattleshirt, with his shirt made of bones.

His collection of bones may represent the collection of souls contained in the weirnet. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

weirwood branches Melisandre forces the wildlings to throw onto the flames

Weirwoods may be the CotF version of dragons. 
Both reverting to stone and being connected to blood sacrifice. 

The branches/roots perhaps represent the spliting of the dragon moon and falling meteors. 
So throwing Weirwood branches into the flames may have similar symbolism to putting dragon eggs in a pyre. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Tyrion scrounges up mismatched armor and weapons from piles of used armor

That may have a connection to what he tells Jon. 

Quote

Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.

So being armored in mismatched armor might imply being mismatched is who he is. 
Perhaps even being an indicator of the Tyrion Chimera theory. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Doesn't Arya make a sword out of a branch at one point?

Practice swords seem to regularly be wooden with an iron core. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

If Bloodraven is responsible for wedding Bran to the trees, are we supposed to compare Varys and Bloodraven?

They both seem to be the spiders at the center of their respective webs. 
Though Bloodraven seems to literally be caught in it. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Do we compare the Children of the Forest to the Little Birds of Varys?

That seems to be a good bet. 

Quote

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"
"All," Lord Brynden said.

 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

This wine seems to be improving as I drink it. Imagine that.

Oh interesting, though I do wonder that since only sour was mentioned specifically, if it was only ment to hint at the concept. Rather than being an indication that Jamie was wedded to anything in a magical sense. At least in that instance. 

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Someone will be driven to recombine the shards like putting Humpty Dumpty back together again?

Hmm. I've wondered if the 14 Flames may have been the result of 14 pieces that were brought together. Which didn't seem to end well.. 

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

so there'd be no trail to follow to track down those Seven comet fragment god-cores.

They may have impacted across Andalos. 
Resulting in the Andal migration west. 

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Euron dredging up the drowned one would be boss!

The Seastone Chair might be carved from it.

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Mundane earthbound stuff like that.

The Red Comet may be the last orbiting piece, so there seems to still be a chance of another impact. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/9/2019 at 7:19 PM, Narsil4 said:

GRRM seems to imply that sour and bitter are the opposite of sweet.

Sweet can be combined with sour OR bitter, which is why such expressions exist, but sour and bitter are never combined together.

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I personally don't believe him. I think he is more likely to be the sorcerer in his only half true story.

He castrated himself in order to speak to some supernatural voice? That is some dedication for someone who otherwise doesn't seem like he has any inclination toward such things.

Quote

I find it hard to believe that Varys would be carrying around terrible wine because good water or wine was difficult for him to find. 

Is this an ocassion that really calls for good wine? It's not some classy dinner, just a means of lubricating a prisoner into agreeing to something.

[Narsil4]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Sweet can be combined with sour OR bitter, which is why such expressions exist, but sour and bitter are never combined together.

I'm speaking more in terms of magical association like Mel hints at. 

Quote

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

So one might look at it like this.. 

Ice	Fire
Black	White
Hate	Love
Bitter/Sour	Sweet
Male	Female
Pain	Pleasure
Winter	Summer
Evil	Good
Death	Life

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He castrated himself in order to speak to some supernatural voice?

I think Varys was the sorcerer, doing the cutting and burning, not the one cut.  

Tongues may serve a similar purpose. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Is this an ocassion that really calls for good wine?

I was responding to the idea that Varys would have had trouble finding good wine. 
He was a member of the Small Council surrounded by the wealth of Lords and Kings. 
He would almost have to go out of his way to get bad wine. 

[Lollygag]

33 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

I think Varys was the sorcerer, doing the cutting and burning, not the one cut.  

Tongues may serve a similar purpose. 

I agree. It can't both be true that Varys hates magic to the degree he claims but he's also supported the magical Targs for decades (pyromancers, Bloodraven's stuff, Summerhall, general wanting dragons...). I believe actions over words. And Varys had a motive to sell this particular story to Tyrion. This thread has a lot of stuff on why we should doubt Varys' origin story. That said, the voice is such a specific thing that I think this was true somehow but not how Varys presented it to Tyrion.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/155676-varys-the-sorcerer/&do=findComment&comment=8430337

---------------------

To your OP - this all feels organic to how Stark kings and lords specifically need to be buried with iron to keep them from rising. As most are long dead, the issue would be Stark bones. As this is an old, old tradition going back thousands of years, I have to wonder how much Varys might know about it. Also, after Jon decides to reject Stannis' offer of Winterfell because he won't sacrifice the heart tree and give up the Old Gods, he drinks *a lot* of wine. The mentions are on par with Cersei, though while Cersei shows signs of going overboard, I've not seen such from Jon. It's also interesting that the Stark's warg wolves somehow know Lady's bones. The surviving wolves are described as restless shadows akin to ghosts themselves.

 

AGOT Bran VI

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

[FictionIsntReal]

12 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

I'm speaking more in terms of magical association like Mel hints at. 

So one might look at it like this.. 

 

Ice	Fire
Black	White
Hate	Love
Bitter/Sour	Sweet
Male	Female
Pain	Pleasure
Winter	Summer
Evil	Good
Death	Life

 

She didn't actually mention "sour" there.

Quote

I think Varys was the sorcerer, doing the cutting and burning, not the one cut.  

Tongues may serve a similar purpose.

You think he's not actually a eunuch?

Quote

I was responding to the idea that Varys would have had trouble finding good wine. 
He was a member of the Small Council surrounded by the wealth of Lords and Kings. 
He would almost have to go out of his way to get bad wine. 

If Varys really needed some good wine, I'm certain he could get it. He's being supported by the extremely wealthy Illyrio. But as Rugen the jailer he typically smells of sour wine, as befits someone who can't afford the same things as Varys.

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I agree. It can't both be true that Varys hates magic to the degree he claims but he's also supported the magical Targs for decades (pyromancers, Bloodraven's stuff, Summerhall, general wanting dragons...). I believe actions over words. And Varys had a motive to sell this particular story to Tyrion. This thread has a lot of stuff on why we should doubt Varys' origin story. That said, the voice is such a specific thing that I think this was true somehow but not how Varys presented it to Tyrion.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/155676-varys-the-sorcerer/&do=findComment&comment=8430337

Summerhall happened long before Varys started serving Aerys, so there were no dragons. Varys also might not consider the pyromancers to actually be magical.

[Narsil4]

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

That said, the voice is such a specific thing that I think this was true somehow but not how Varys presented it to Tyrion.

Yea. I'd imagine that Varys knew what the voice was saying, or if not, may have spent a lot of resources on figuring it out and eventually communicating with it. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She didn't actually mention "sour" there.

I believe Mel is giving us the general structure to consider, while the word association for sour is made elsewhere. 

Quote

I never dreamed how quick the sweet would turn to sour.

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You think he's not actually a eunuch?

It's difficult to say anything about Varys with confidence. 
If not a eunuch, I suspect that he may be a she, with similar symbolic implications as Alleras. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

But as Rugen the jailer he typically smells of sour wine, as befits someone who can't afford the same things as Varys.

Yea, I'd agree. A part of his disguise would be much more likely than his inability to acquire something else. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Summerhall happened long before Varys started serving Aerys, so there were no dragons. Varys also might not consider the pyromancers to actually be magical.

With the possibility of being a sorceress, I wonder if the baldness is related to Dany's after the pyre. Like perhaps she was involved in a similar ritual, but her hair never grew back.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Summerhall happened long before Varys started serving Aerys, so there were no dragons. Varys also might not consider the pyromancers to actually be magical. 

 

The suffix -mancer means practitioner of magic. Pyromancer, necromancer, etc;, so it's in the definition. Actually being magical or succeeding at magic isn't Varys' issue. He's very clear that he hates anyone who practices it in principle including those who subsidize it. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it.

Aerys was an adult during Summerhall and Rhaegar was born there. Aerys never swore off magic in the meantime. Quite the opposite. So the Summerhall distinction isn't one at all.

ASOS Jaime V

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

 

 

ACOK Daenerys III

The mage was gesturing, urging the flames higher and higher with broad sweeps of his arms. As the watchers craned their necks upward, the cutpurses squirmed through the press, small blades hidden in their palms. They relieved the prosperous of their coin with one hand while pointing upward with the other.

When the fiery ladder stood forty feet high, the mage leapt forward and began to climb it, scrambling up hand over hand as quick as a monkey. Each rung he touched dissolved behind him, leaving no more than a wisp of silver smoke. When he reached the top, the ladder was gone and so was he.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

Merriam Webster names necromancer (and thus pyromancer) as a synomym for mage. So same thing.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mage

 

ACOK Tyrion XI

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

 

Dragons are magic. Valyrians are supposed to have dragon blood and with their compulsion and control of dragons and also having dragonish children on occasion speak to this. Can't separate Targs and magic. Direct contradiction to Varys' stated hated of magic and all who practice it. Even if you get one rare Targ who completely swears off dragons, most won't and will jump at the opportunity to get one.

[The Mother of The Others]

Okay.   He's magical, since you're sold on that.  I'm flexible:  

 Sometimes one wonders what secret is so worth keeping that all those lil' birds have to give up their tongues to prevent them from giving away that secret.   Varys' secret.   Not other people's secret plans or embarrassing blackmail level stuff his spies are outwardly looking for in the capital.  Cuz that normal political intrigue shit ain't juicy enough to lose your tongue over preemptively.   No.  This is a whole nuther level of paranoia beyond regular human secrecy.  Varys is protecting the inward secret that matters most, the secret of the ages, so shameful and damning that it cannot ever become known, the horrid truth 'bout hisself:

 

 He's not only magical, but very.    He's the castrated Night King whose balls were confiscated long ago to stop the rampant, incessant breeding with Others.  The rest of the death he supposedly suffered back then either didn't take (he survived thanks to a warg-ish 2nd life in a biped like Varys), ....or the death sentence was never carried out (Night King was too sexy to die- -"Look into my eyes until you lose yourself and are ready to let me slip away into the night.... then erase my whole incident from history, in part to cover up how all the king's horses and all the king's men weren't enough to kill me.   And to cover up the fact that, in some capacity, the night king debacle never ended but is an ONGOING political agenda.  Of course this ancient occult faction would have found representation on the Small Council!  Of course it wormed its way in there since NK's overthrow, because in a city of living corruption who'd notice bumping shoulders with Other more dead forms of corruption?   Did Qyburn discover zombie manufacture on his own as a coincidental lark just when the Dead are on the rise in the North?   No.  It's all connected.  Q's breakthrough was given him, seeded into his mind by Varys the Ball-less, who needed another way to mass produce hybrid zombies now that his nuts are gone!  Mass production of Robert Strong zombies is the future of KL.  It's what the population there has to look forward to.  So...   Shhhhh!  Don't tell anyone.  Oh, right.  This is when yur tongue gets removed.  Now that you know Varys' secret. )

But what became of the night king's nuts???     Let's hear him tell it , in his own words, as NBC news used to do as a 15 second feature:

"That blue 'heart' that got dragon-roasted in the House of the Undying wasn't a heart, baby.   Those were my balls, swole from the centuries of acting as the locus point for concentrating the perving magics of the East, yielding a continent of pervs like the ones attacking Meereen.     [Voiced as Macho Man Randy Savage:]   Ohhhhhh yeah!

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

The suffix -mancer means practitioner of magic. Pyromancer, necromancer, etc;, so it's in the definition. Actually being magical or succeeding at magic isn't Varys' issue. He's very clear that he hates anyone who practices it in principle including those who subsidize it. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it.

The pyromancers regard wildfire as magical, but it's sort of like Greek fire or napalm, a flammable chemical, and non-magical characters like Tyrion are able to use it just fine. It's different from a supernatural presence which defies any naturalistic explanation.

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Dragons are magic. Valyrians are supposed to have dragon blood and with their compulsion and control of dragons and also having dragonish children on occasion speak to this. Can't separate Targs and magic. Direct contradiction to Varys' stated hated of magic and all who practice it. Even if you get one rare Targ who completely swears off dragons, most won't and will jump at the opportunity to get one.

The dragons were dead when Varys came over and he didn't expect for that to change. There didn't seem to be anything magical about Targaryens without dragons.

[Lollygag]

18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The pyromancers regard wildfire as magical, but it's sort of like Greek fire or napalm, a flammable chemical, and non-magical characters like Tyrion are able to use it just fine. It's different from a supernatural presence which defies any naturalistic explanation.

The dragons were dead when Varys came over and he didn't expect for that to change. There didn't seem to be anything magical about Targaryens without dragons.

If they're just technicians making wildfire and nothing more, they wouldn't be called pyromancers. Implied in there is that it takes magic to make wildfire. Somehow I doubt the wildfire recipe is as simple or benign as a cake recipe.

Except Varys is all ok with Aegon marrying Dany and her dragons. We don't know what Varys expected, but the Targs kept doing woo-woo to to bring the dragons back. (Summerhall, whatever wacko stuff Aerys was up to with Rossart as Hand and believing he'd turn into a dragon). That woo-woo stuff, regardless of the lack of results until Dany, is practicing magic. We've seen over and over that some Targs (Aerys, Dany, Aemon, and perhaps Tyrion depending on your opinion of his birth) have a compulsion towards dragons and the woo-woo stuff that goes with them and that's very hard for them to resist. Even Egg gave in. Targs/dragons are magic and it's in their nature to keep trying for dragons. To deny that is willful ignorance of the text.

Again: All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it.