Gender relations in Westeros: II

[Peach King]

To expand upon this  post, where power imbalances between women and men in Westeros was discussed, what examples are there of a woman wielding more power and being the dominant partner in her marriage with a man?

There is Genna Lannister. Genna, although married off as a child to Emmon Frey who was 8 years her senior, bullies and controls him. This is presumably because Emmon Frey is only a second son from House Frey, while Genna comes from the powerful Lannisters. 

There's also Marsha Heddle, the innkeeper who refers to her husband just as "husband" and who clearly runs the household. (Thanks  to cyberdirectorfreedom for the mention).

Daenerys Targaryen and Hizdahr Zo Loraq would also be a case where the woman wields more power than her husband. But this is an exceptional case of a woman ruling as queen in her own right, who also has dragons as a form of weaponry.

The unnamed Princess of Dorne also had a consort who is not mentioned at all. In Dorne women have more rights so she must have been in charge and not her husband.

The day they were betrothed, he warned Brienne that he would expect her to be a proper woman once they'd wed. "I will not have my lady wife cavorting about in man's mail. On this you shall obey me, lest I be forced to chastise you." - AFFC, Brienne II

Rhaegar Frey: Marriage will soften her, I have no doubt. A firm hand and a quiet word. - ADWD, Davos II

However these passages clearly imply that a husband's authority is derived from law and society itself, not the hierarchical position of his family in relation to his wife's. Humfrey Wagstaff was a knight and castellan, lower in rank than Brienne, heir to House Tarth, but he expected to claim his rights as husband.

Sigorn would also be lower in the rung than Alys Karstark, as she is heir to House Karstark and owns a castle and lands while Sigorn is a freefolk. But Rhargar Frey's comment suggests he has the authority to control her. (Thanks to R2D for relevant passages)

So in this intersection of legal power of the husband vs the wife's power stemming from her position in society, which will win out? Has a family ever intervened on a daughter's behalf because her husband treats her cruelly? Can a woman seek help from her vassals in case of an abusive husband? Could Lysa Arryn throw Littlefinger (after they married) out of the Vale if he ever angered her like how Jeyne Arryn threw Daemon Targaryen out of the Vale? Suppose Princess Shireen was married off for an alliance, could she count on protection from the Kingsguard if her husband ever struck her?

If the answer to these questions aren't in the books, what's your opinion?

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

There is Genna Lannister. Genna, although married off as a child to Emmon Frey who was 8 years her senior, bullies and controls him. This is presumably because Emmon Frey is only a second son from House Frey, while Genna comes from the powerful Lannisters. 

Yes, that's an example - but as I said this only works because Genna and Emmon live at Casterly Rock, not at the Twins or Emmon's own castle. At such a place Genna would just be a woman from a very powerful family ... who lives many leagues away.

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

There's also Marsha Heddle, the innkeeper who refers to her husband just as "husband" and who clearly runs the household. (Thanks  to cyberdirectorfreedom for the mention).

Yeah, but the Heddles seem to be a pretty prominent family in the Riverlands.

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Hizdahr Zo Loraq would also be a case where the woman wields more power than her husband. But this is an exceptional case of a woman ruling as queen in her own right, who also has dragons, and is probably not to be taken as the usual way things would run.

Sure, that's a special case - and not one that has anything to do with Westeros.

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The unnamed Princess of Dorne also had a consort who is not mentioned at all. In Dorne women have more rights so she must have been in charge and not her husband.

Definitely, Dornish consorts do not share in rule officially but are just husbands and counselors like consort queens, but one assumes they can - and did - dominate their wives occasionally, either by brute force or manipulation behind the scenes (although one would expect that such attempts would and did often lead to the downfall and end of such men, considering that the Dornish customs wouldn't have tolerated such power grabs if they were done in the open).

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

However these passages clearly imply that a husband's authority is derived from law and society itself, not the hierarchical position of his family in relation to his wife's. Humfrey Wagstaff was a knight and castellan, lower in rank than Brienne, heir to House Tarth, but he expected to claim his rights as husband.

Definitely. Women might hold lordships in their own right, but lord husbands outside Dorne do rule and chastise their lady wives, not the other way around.

Law and custom would not permit the lord husband to call himself the lord of a castle or sit on the high seat and do all the other lordly things if he was just a consort, but he could command his lady wife to do what he wanted her to do, and she would be a very hard time to establish some other power dynamics, considering the concept of marriage in Westeros which demanded that a wife submit to a man in within their marriage.

To put it very drastically - Rhaenyra Targaryen may be the heir to the Iron Throne, but Laenor Velaryon is still permitted by law to give her six lashes with a rod as thick as his thumb to chastise her for her adultery. Thus are the 'powers of women' in this world.

But then, of course, there is also the example of Alyssa Velaryon putting Rogar Baratheon into his place, indicating that if you truly wield royal power such powers come before the bonds a woman has to suffer in marriage.

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Sigorn would also be lower in the rung than Alys Karstark, as she is heir to House Karstark and owns a castle and lands while Sigorn is a freefolk. But Rhargar Frey's comment suggests he has the authority to control her. (Thanks to R2D for relevant passages)

Sigorn also has the advantage to actually have hundreds of soldiers who worship as a god whereas Alys is literally down to a skeleton garrison considering mostly of servants (Cregan only took a handful of men with him when searched for her). He would also be at a disadvantage considering that Alys isn't really the Lady of Karhold while her brother still lives, not to mention that as a foreigner he doesn't really understand the ways of the Northmen ... yet.

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

So in this intersection of legal power of the husband vs the backing of the wife's powerful family, which will win out? Has a family ever intervened on a daughter's behalf because her husband treats her cruelly? Can a woman seek help from her vassals in case of an abusive husband? Could Lysa Arryn throw Littlefinger (after they married) out of the Vale if he ever angered her like how Jeyne Arryn threw Daemon Targaryen out of the Vale? Suppose Princess Shireen was married off for an alliance, could she count on protection from the Kingsguard if her husband ever struck her?

We don't know of such an intervention. The best indication of something somewhat resembling this is the Northmen complaining about Ramsay's treatment of 'Lady Arya'. But this only extends to her to publicly unhappy - nobody has any right to actually investigate what Lord Ramsay does to his lady wife in the marriage bed.

I don't think vassals have any right to intervene in the marriage of the lieges. Nor lieges into marriages of their vassals for that matter ... unless actualy crimes like murder or beatings that go beyond the scope that go beyond the legal and traditionally tolerated. And this should also involve families. Giving your daughter or sister into the power of another man is what marriage is as a concept. Once you give her up, you cannot demand her back or exert power over her.

Lysa as mother of Lord Robert and regent of the Vale could Littlefinger dismiss as Lord Protector as Alyssa Velaryon dismissed Lord Rogar, her own husband. Even more so since Littlefinger had not yet build his own power base in the Eyrie.

If Shireen were a queen regnant she would likely run things if she was prepared for them ... if not, and if she were married to an older man and accustomed to submit to him before she came into her throne she would likely to as he asked.

Considering Shireen's character is she is not likely to be very forceful as a queen or a wife.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

There's also Marsha Heddle, the innkeeper who refers to her husband just as "husband" and who clearly runs the household.

Masha Heddle ran the Inn at the Crossroads, and was killed by Tywin as punishment for letting Tyrion be taken. Husbands wife is named Sharna, no surname.

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

Sigorn would also be lower in the rung than Alys Karstark, as she is heir to House Karstark and owns a castle and lands while Sigorn is a freefolk. But Rhargar Frey's comment suggests he has the authority to control her.

Rhaegar Frey's comment is referring to Wylla Manderly:

"Wylla has always been a willful child," her sister said, by way of apology. "I fear that she will make a willful wife."

Rhaegar shrugged. "Marriage will soften her, I have no doubt. A firm hand and a quiet word."

Nothing to do with Alys and Sigorn. Unless we're just applying his comment in general, but I don't think applies, anyway. A Frey/Manderly marriage wouldn't be the same as a Karstark/Wildling marriage.

[Peach King]

 

22 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Masha Heddle ran the Inn at the Crossroads, and was killed by Tywin as punishment for letting Tyrion be taken. Husbands wife is named Sharna, no surname.

Rhaegar Frey's comment is referring to Wylla Manderly:

"Wylla has always been a willful child," her sister said, by way of apology. "I fear that she will make a willful wife."

Rhaegar shrugged. "Marriage will soften her, I have no doubt. A firm hand and a quiet word."

Nothing to do with Alys and Sigorn. Unless we're just applying his comment in general, but I don't think applies, anyway. A Frey/Manderly marriage wouldn't be the same as a Karstark/Wildling marriage.

Oh okay. Thanks for the correction. Still, Wylla Manderly, a second daughter is of higher rank than Walder Frey, who is the son of the ninth son of the great Walder Frey so the point stands.

So to summarize:

Vassals can't interfere in a married couple's business. The Stark vassals all heard "Arya's" screams and cries but did not do anything about it. This is even though Arya should be higher up in the social ladder than Ramsay. Family can help, but only if they're significantly powerful and in the same area of residence.

I don't have Fire and Blood so I read the wiki. Rogar Baratheon was still able to forbid Alyssa Velaryon from going to Dragonstone even though she was Queen Regent. So a husband still can command his wife even if she is Queen Regent, she's not able to discard his wishes because of her position. But Alyssa was also able to strip his position of Hand from him.

And in Dorne where people are more egalitarian, Arianne Martell would be able to rule in her own right and her husband would be considered only a consort.

In Westeros:

Hyle Hunt bluntly tells Brienne that he wants Tarth in exchange for her having children which probably means men are able to administer their wife's castle and lands from behind the scenes and do so often.

And Shireen could probably never be Queen Regnant. Since she has greyscale, lacks charisma and is a girl I don't think the lords will ever accept her. Whoever her husband is will probably be seen as a leader more than her and so will have more power than her. Stannis being king would be enough of a threat to keep her from being mistreated, but if Stannis died her husband would probably be able to push her around.

As for Lysa Arryn, she was regent to Sweetrobin which is from where she derives her power. What if she had no children? Could Littlefinger rule in her stead? Probably not because he is not well liked in the Vale and is an outsider. Cersei's regency was revoked in favour of Kevan so one assumes a male family member could claim Lysa' seat from her.

So ruling ladies are theoretically the only ones who have more power than their husbands. However the husband can still order them around, so they would also need to have strong personalities.

 

[frenin]

On 11/8/2019 at 7:08 AM, Lord Varys said:

Definitely. Women might hold lordships in their own right, but lord husbands outside Dorne do rule and chastise their lady wives, not the other way around.

Law and custom would not permit the lord husband to call himself the lord of a castle or sit on the high seat and do all the other lordly things if he was just a consort, but he could command his lady wife to do what he wanted her to do, and she would be a very hard time to establish some other power dynamics, considering the concept of marriage in Westeros which demanded that a wife submit to a man in within their marriage.

To put it very drastically - Rhaenyra Targaryen may be the heir to the Iron Throne, but Laenor Velaryon is still permitted by law to give her six lashes with a rod as thick as his thumb to chastise her for her adultery. Thus are the 'powers of women' in this world.

But then, of course, there is also the example of Alyssa Velaryon putting Rogar Baratheon into his place, indicating that if you truly wield royal power such powers come before the bonds a woman has to suffer in marriage.

I don't think this can be logically concluded, oe of the reasons women are so fucked is because they don't only have to suffer fucked up laws but they are left powerless on behalf of theur hubbies.

Wagstaff can dream about anything he wants, he's not submitting Brienne, on her own land, surrounded by her people, i think at's his ego not allowing him to accept the obvious, the same thng goes for Laenor and even Daemon, the power dynamics are simply to vast to just ignore them.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Peach King said:

Vassals can't interfere in a married couple's business. The Stark vassals all heard "Arya's" screams and cries but did not do anything about it. This is even though Arya should be higher up in the social ladder than Ramsay. Family can help, but only if they're significantly powerful and in the same area of residence.

We can even say that Jon/Mance are abusing guest right when they try to abduct Ramsay's lawful wife. This is the kind of thing Rhaegar Targaryen did to the Starks when he took Lyanna, only worse, since 'Arya' is already married. This is a crime/insult that justifies war.

That alone should explain why noble houses do not interfere in the domestic affairs of their peers.

8 hours ago, Peach King said:

I don't have Fire and Blood so I read the wiki. Rogar Baratheon was still able to forbid Alyssa Velaryon from going to Dragonstone even though she was Queen Regent. So a husband still can command his wife even if she is Queen Regent, she's not able to discard his wishes because of her position. But Alyssa was also able to strip his position of Hand from him.

He persuaded/convinced her not to go. He could not legally forbid her doing that, although he may very well have phrased it as if he could or pretended he could do that. But his argument was - which apparently convinced her - that she/they would look weak if they came running back and were trying to make amends to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. She dismissed him later and forced him to leave court and go back to Storm's End with his tail between his legs, so that clearly shows the power dynamic there.

But this certainly is due to the fact that Alyssa Velaryon is not just any woman - she is the widow of a king and rules as Queen Regent and played a crucial rule putting down Maegor the Cruel (not to mention that she has some Targaryen ancestors herself, if she comes from the same Velaryon branch as Valaena Velaryon). But if she hadn't been the Queen Regent then things would have likely been very different.

8 hours ago, Peach King said:

As for Lysa Arryn, she was regent to Sweetrobin which is from where she derives her power. What if she had no children? Could Littlefinger rule in her stead? Probably not because he is not well liked in the Vale and is an outsider. Cersei's regency was revoked in favour of Kevan so one assumes a male family member could claim Lysa' seat from her.

If there had been a male Arryn around then Lysa may not have been allowed to rule as regent for her minor son - but it is apparently quite common for women to play that role in Westeros, and that's not unwise since it is much more likely that a woman defend and cares for her child, putting his interests first, than that an uncle, nephew, or cousin would do that - who secretly dream of becoming lord or king in place of the minor king/lord.

And we do know from Sharra Arryn's example that queen dowagers did rule as regents in the Vale even before the Conquest, so Lysa is no exception there.

Cersei lost the regency because she was imprisoned by the Faith and accused of various crimes - and because the remaining members of the Small Council (then only Pycelle and Harys Swyft) preferred Kevan to her. They could have tried to free her by force and restore her to power.

Theoretically Lysa could have also lost her regency if she had gotten herself in severe trouble, but considering that the garrison of the Eyrie and other crucial people in the Vale were very loyal to her the chances for that are very slim. But still - a regency is never as firm a basis for power as an actual lordship or kingship - because it is only exercised for a limited period of time - until a child comes of age, until an incapacitated lord or king defeats his illness or recovers from his wounds (or dies). And in that sense other people can try to wrest this authority from you. How powerful you are as a regent depends on how well-connected you are in the power system of court where you would serve as regent.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't think this can be logically concluded, oe of the reasons women are so fucked is because they don't only have to suffer fucked up laws but they are left powerless on behalf of theur hubbies.

Wagstaff can dream about anything he wants, he's not submitting Brienne, on her own land, surrounded by her people, i think at's his ego not allowing him to accept the obvious, the same thng goes for Laenor and even Daemon, the power dynamics are simply to vast to just ignore them.

I honestly doubt that the people of Tarth relish at the thought of being ruled by as unnatural a woman as Brienne of Tarth. She is everything a noblewoman should not be.

But then - Brienne does have the physical strength to put any husband in his place, and if her father was treating her as his heir (she herself still thinks he may have sons one day) then she certainly could have some power base of her own.

The reason why women essentially are never prepared to rule in Westeros is that they always come behind their brothers, so no lord is ever going to groom or prepare a daughter to rule even when he has only daughters - because he can always to got a son the next year. Which means whenever a woman ends up as a ruling lady that's usually because something went very wrong - her brothers died in battle, of sickness, etc., or her father died before he could father any sons. And then they have to deal with that. If they had been accustomed to defer to the authorities of their husbands by the time they become heirs or even ruling ladies then it should be too late for them to be the ones in charge in their marriage.

There are people who fool themselves into believing Hoster once groomed Catelyn as his heir, but this is clearly not true. Instead of taking her with him on his travels and journeys through the Riverlands to get to know her father's bannermen and vassals, he left her at home where she had to wait for him. This is exactly the opposite of grooming your child to rule. Doesn't mean Cat picked up a few things, but she clearly was not the one Hoster wanted to succeed him.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly doubt that the people of Tarth relish at the thought of being ruled by as unnatural a woman as Brienne of Tarth. She is everything a noblewoman should not be.

But then - Brienne does have the physical strength to put any husband in his place, and if her father was treating her as his heir (she herself still thinks he may have sons one day) then she certainly could have some power base of her own.

The reason why women essentially are never prepared to rule in Westeros is that they always come behind their brothers, so no lord is ever going to groom or prepare a daughter to rule even when he has only daughters - because he can always to got a son the next year. Which means whenever a woman ends up as a ruling lady that's usually because something went very wrong - her brothers died in battle, of sickness, etc., or her father died before he could father any sons. And then they have to deal with that. If they had been accustomed to defer to the authorities of their husbands by the time they become heirs or even ruling ladies then it should be too late for them to be the ones in charge in their marriage.

There are people who fool themselves into believing Hoster once groomed Catelyn as his heir, but this is clearly not true. Instead of taking her with him on his travels and journeys through the Riverlands to get to know her father's bannermen and vassals, he left her at home where she had to wait for him. This is exactly the opposite of grooming your child to rule. Doesn't mean Cat picked up a few things, but she clearly was not the one Hoster wanted to succeed him.

 It would totally depends, Brienne's been her father's heir for a while now, the people of Tarth had time enough to get used to it and even then, they are following Selwyn's heir, not some stranger.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

 It would totally depends, Brienne's been her father's heir for a while now, the people of Tarth had time enough to get used to it and even then, they are following Selwyn's heir, not some stranger.

If the stranger happens to be a man who knows how to win the love of his people there shouldn't be any trouble with them thinking the woman should run things.

And Brienne is not Selwyn's heir in a meaningful sense. She doesn't sit as his side, she isn't groomed to rule, she is put in any kind of authority to prepare her to rule one day. Instead she is off doing adventuring on her own which very likely could get her killed. In fact, if Selwyn were to die tomorrow some cousin would likely claim Tarth and Brienne wouldn't even try to complain. If she wanted to be her father's heir and successor she would have tried to return to Tarth a long time ago.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

If the stranger happens to be a man who knows how to win the love of his people there shouldn't be any trouble with them thinking the woman should run things.

And Brienne is not Selwyn's heir in a meaningful sense. She doesn't sit as his side, she isn't groomed to rule, she is put in any kind of authority to prepare her to rule one day. Instead she is off doing adventuring on her own which very likely could get her killed. In fact, if Selwyn were to die tomorrow some cousin would likely claim Tarth and Brienne wouldn't even try to complain. If she wanted to be her father's heir and successor she would have tried to return to Tarth a long time ago.

That's like saying that if Daemon knows how ti win the small council, he is the ruler, not Rhaenrya.

 

Isn't she?? Jaime was regarded by Tywin as his heir and the man was worse than Brienne, she doesn't need to be groomed to the task, Tarth is not a huge dominion, where people need to see you every time to understand you're the heir, she has been around for a long time, the people know her and know she's her father's sole heir, how that rule is going to be is a different task.

If some cousin were to claim Tarth, he'd lose the lordship the moment Brienne came back, unless said cousin got the Storm's End to be on board too.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

That's like saying that if Daemon knows how ti win the small council, he is the ruler, not Rhaenrya.

Rhaenyra is a somewhat more special case, but even there you see that Daemon had much more power than a queen consort would have had Rhaenyra been a man and Daemon a woman (just compare him to Helaena or most other Targaryen consort queens). Alysanne, Visenya, and Rhaenys are huge exceptions, not the rule.

I imagine you recall that Daemon Targaryen could go off to sleep with some aging whore while Rhaenyra was stuck with a couple of cakes. Rhaenyra did not go and take a rod as thick as her thumb and gave Daemon a good whenever he committed adultery, no? Not to mention that Daemon would have been deserving of death had he as a queen consort committed adultery.

In the North we have castles where apparently the steward rather than the lady of the house runs the household, we have Rohanne Webber fearing every day the moment when her own castellan decides to rape her and force her to marry her.

Women are not in strong positions in this world - and the few women who have some form of authority are mothers and grandmothers who exert influence over and through their children and grandchildren. This is not only the case for women like Olenna or the various mothers who serve as regents for their minor children, but also for the ruling ladies - Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood and Maege Mormont are older women, with grown up children of their own, whose husbands (although they must have existed at one point) are curiously absent.

And it is rather obvious why both Jeyne Arryn and Barbrey Dustin never (re-)married - they would risk to lose all their power, have to share it with their husbands, or have to constantly fight them in their attempts to exert more power than they are willing to grant them.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Isn't she?? Jaime was regarded by Tywin as his heir and the man was worse than Brienne, she doesn't need to be groomed to the task, Tarth is not a huge dominion, where people need to see you every time to understand you're the heir, she has been around for a long time, the people know her and know she's her father's sole heir, how that rule is going to be is a different task.

Jaime was groomed by Tywin to be his heir until he abandoned him.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

If some cousin were to claim Tarth, he'd lose the lordship the moment Brienne came back, unless said cousin got the Storm's End to be on board too.

Said cousin would be a Tarth himself, and the people of Tarth would know and most likely like him better than the ugly unnatural woman Selwyn has for a daughter. Brienne is not exactly the kind of person who ever hung out with her fathers vassals and retainers in an attempt to ingratiate herself with them. Nor is there any reason to believe she was known or popular with the people of the castle.

And a general note:

How common wife-beating in marriages is we can derive from Gyldayn's account on Gaemon Palehair's decrees (both in TWoIaF and FaB). It is stated there that henceforth husbands who beat their wives should be beaten themselves, regardless what crimes/offenses said wives did commit to deserve such punishments.

This implicitly confirms that there are other crimes/offenses besides adultery that allow a husband to beat his wife. We don't know how many, but the way I interpret this is that a husband can essentially come up with any excuse whatsoever to beat his wife - if things like 'disobedience' or 'improper behavior' constitute enough of an offense to warrant physical punishment, then it should be very easy to find such flaws in pretty much any wife.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra is a somewhat more special case, but even there you see that Daemon had much more power than a queen consort would have had Rhaenyra been a man and Daemon a woman (just compare him to Helaena or most other Targaryen consort queens). Alysanne, Visenya, and Rhaenys are huge exceptions, not the rule.

I imagine you recall that Daemon Targaryen could go off to sleep with some aging whore while Rhaenyra was stuck with a couple of cakes. Rhaenyra did not go and take a rod as thick as her thumb and gave Daemon a good whenever he committed adultery, no? Not to mention that Daemon would have been deserving of death had he as a queen consort committed adultery.

Daemon had a huge power because they were at war and Daemon was vital for the black war effort, so he could and did do pretty much what he wanted, had Helaena cheated too, i don't expect Aegon 2 dared to give Helaena a good beating either, that's alienating a dragonlord for naught. In fact i think that dragonlords having nukes each of them would make them treat each other with caution and that only andal culture could soften that a bit.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In the North we have castles where apparently the steward rather than the lady of the house runs the household, we have Rohanne Webber fearing every day the moment when her own castellan decides to rape her and force her to marry her.

 

Probably because the Lord has left the steward in charge and Rohanne's idiot father had set up with his will that everyone would try and force her to marry and even then Rohanne was still in charge.

 

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 Women are not in strong positions in this world - and the few women who have some form of authority are mothers and grandmothers who exert influence over and through their children and grandchildren. This is not only the case for women like Olenna or the various mothers who serve as regents for their minor children, but also for the ruling ladies - Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood and Maege Mormont are older women, with grown up children of their own, whose husbands (although they must have existed at one point) are curiously absent.

 

Women can't have strong positions in that world but i don't remember Lady Caron or Jeyne Arryn or Dustin having kids and they ruled just fine, the same goes for Marla Sunderland.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 And it is rather obvious why both Jeyne Arryn and Barbrey Dustin never (re-)married - they would risk to lose all their power, have to share it with their husbands, or have to constantly fight them in their attempts to exert more power than they are willing to grant them.

Quote

I'm sure it's obviousfor you, i don't see it that obvious, i don't think neither of them are eager to remarry for their own personal reasons, bitterner for Barbrey and well, we don't know enough from Arryn to draw a conclusion.

Lysa would not have to share absolutely anything with LF.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime was groomed by Tywin to be his heir until he abandoned him.

Quote

Was he?? He certainly wanted him to be his heir but we don't get to see the grooming, Jaime left to be fostered elsewhere and Tywin was in the Red Keep, the only one who was constantly in Casterly Rock is Tyrion and even then, 17 years have passed since he "abandoned him".

 

 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Said cousin would be a Tarth himself, and the people of Tarth would know and most likely like him better than the ugly unnatural woman Selwyn has for a daughter. Brienne is not exactly the kind of person who ever hung out with her fathers vassals and retainers in an attempt to ingratiate herself with them. Nor is there any reason to believe she was known or popular with the people of the castle.

 

Devan Lannister is a Lannister himself, so is Kevan and i'm fairly sure that the West like them and respect them both more than Cersei and with both Jaime and Tyrion out, there is no doubt that the West is Cersei's.

A cousin is not the kind of guy you present to vassals and such because that creates the impression of said cousin is the heir and we have no reason to believe Lord Tarth wanted anything but his daughter succeding him.

The fact that she was known is undeniable, for better and for worse, Brienne's been for years Lord Selwyn's only heir, you can paint whatever you want on her popularity tho.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How common wife-beating in marriages is we can derive from Gyldayn's account on Gaemon Palehair's decrees (both in TWoIaF and FaB). It is stated there that henceforth husbands who beat their wives should be beaten themselves, regardless what crimes/offenses said wives did commit to deserve such punishments.

 This implicitly confirms that there are other crimes/offenses besides adultery that allow a husband to beat his wife. We don't know how many, but the way I interpret this is that a husband can essentially come up with any excuse whatsoever to beat his wife - if things like 'disobedience' or 'improper behavior' constitute enough of an offense to warrant physical punishment, then it should be very easy to find such flaws in pretty much any wife.

Don't doubt it and yet Emmon would and could never touch his wife, even in Riverrun.

[Lord Varys]

On 11/10/2019 at 3:55 AM, frenin said:

Daemon had a huge power because they were at war and Daemon was vital for the black war effort, so he could and did do pretty much what he wanted, had Helaena cheated too, i don't expect Aegon 2 dared to give Helaena a good beating either, that's alienating a dragonlord for naught. In fact i think that dragonlords having nukes each of them would make them treat each other with caution and that only andal culture could soften that a bit.

As per the regulations of this world an adulterous Helaena wouldn't have just got a good beating, as queen consort her committing adultery would have been treason, meaning she would have been executed.

Now, I guess Alicent wouldn't have liked that, but Aegon II wasn't the forgiving type, was he?

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Probably because the Lord has left the steward in charge and Rohanne's idiot father had set up with his will that everyone would try and force her to marry and even then Rohanne was still in charge.

An unwed ruling lady has to be afraid of rape and forced marriage all time - a male lord doesn't. That in and of itself shows how limited female rule in this world is.

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Women can't have strong positions in that world but i don't remember Lady Caron or Jeyne Arryn or Dustin having kids and they ruled just fine, the same goes for Marla Sunderland.

Jeyne Arryn remained unwed for a reason, and she had to constantly fight off and severely punish her ambitious male Arryn cousins. The other women are just names, we don't know anything about them.

And yes, on the Three Sisters there seem to have been different succession laws than in other regions of the Seven Kingdoms prior to the Conquest.

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Lysa would not have to share absolutely anything with LF.

Lysa isn't even a lady in her own right, though. Her power comes from controlling the Lord of the Vale.

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Was he?? He certainly wanted him to be his heir but we don't get to see the grooming, Jaime left to be fostered elsewhere and Tywin was in the Red Keep, the only one who was constantly in Casterly Rock is Tyrion and even then, 17 years have passed since he "abandoned him".

Tywin fostered Jaime with a Westerman, presumably so Jaime could get to know the lands he would one day rule.

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The fact that she was known is undeniable, for better and for worse, Brienne's been for years Lord Selwyn's only heir, you can paint whatever you want on her popularity tho.

Brienne is an absent presumptive heir - who just got half or her face chewn off. If Selwyn died today, Tarth would need a lord. They would not wait for a woman who is missing in action.

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Don't doubt it and yet Emmon would and could never touch his wife, even in Riverrun.

Emmon is a weakling - but that aside he still has the legal right to beat his wife, while Genna has no such right. Get the difference?

General comment:

As for the Valyrian situation, we have Yandel tell us that Valyrian men and women did rule over those colonies that were not ruling themselves, meaning that female Valyrian elite/dragonlords were able to get powerful office in the administration of the Freehold. That would not necessarily be the same as gender equality as with the Rhoynar, but certainly better than the Westerosi situation.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As per the regulations of this world an adulterous Helaena wouldn't have just got a good beating, as queen consort her committing adultery would have been treason, meaning she would have been executed.

Now, I guess Alicent wouldn't have liked that, but Aegon II wasn't the forgiving type, was he?

In the middle of a civil war and  with the Greens with dragon  dissadvantage?? Impossible.

Aegon would've sucked it, because the less dragons the less chances he has to keep his Throne.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

An unwed ruling lady has to be afraid of rape and forced marriage all time - a male lord doesn't. That in and of itself shows how limited female rule in this world is.

I don't think neither Jeyne Arryn not  Rhaenrya were afraid of that, not they had a reason to be afraid, it all comes down to the power  dynamics and the context.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jeyne Arryn remained unwed for a reason, and she had to constantly fight off and severely punish her ambitious male Arryn cousins. The other women are just names, we don't know anything about them.

We don't know the reason why she didn't marry, what we do know is that her hold over the Vale was strong enough to defeat  twice, not continuosly, his cousin and  imprison him, is only when the royal  succesion question arises she fears losing the hold over the Vale.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lysa isn't even a lady in her own right, though. Her power comes from controlling the Lord of the Vale.

Same power LF had, yet Lysa was uncontested while the Vale Lords almost overthrew Petyr.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin fostered Jaime with a Westerman, presumably so Jaime could get to know the lands he would one day rule.

Did he?? Did Jaime do progresses  and  the such?? I don't remember him saying it 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne is an absent presumptive heir - who just got half or her face chewn off. If Selwyn died today, Tarth would need a lord. They would not wait for a woman who is missing in action.

Don't know what the face anecdote is relevant  but ok.

They would need a ruler, which a castellan  or a regent in the Lord/Lady absence can do, they don't need a lord so Tarth can be ruled.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Emmon is a weakling - but that aside he still has the legal right to beat his wife, while Genna has no such right. Get the difference?

And still Genna is more likely to beat him to death than the other way around, having the right to do something and  having the might to do something are two very separated things. Get the difference??