Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But don't you think Robb was disloyal to his sisters, when he didn't get them back (he basically sacrificed them for his war imo)? And Ned greatly endangered his daughters, family and the North through his actions- he for sure did not put them first.

No I don't because Robb was in an impossible situation in regards to his sister's. In order to have sacrificed them for his war it would need to be true that had he not called his banners & went to war he would have saved his sister's by doing so. That isn't true. 

The same as Sansa is not to blame for the resulting actions of Cersei & Joffrey, neither is Ned. Cersei & Joffrey hold the blame for their own actions. The difference in Ned & Sansa to me is that every action of Ned's was to keep his family safe. He never did anything solely to get his own way or fulfil his own wants. Sansa, twice, once when she lied about the incident with Joff & Mycah & again when she went to Cersei about Ned's plans did so solely to fulfil her own wishes & against the word of her father. 

41 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

was stupid ( not generally speaking, but in those instances ) and probably didn't think it would affect his family- I give him that. But the same goes for Sansa. And Ned in comparison to her is not a child, who hasn't been exposed to the horrific sides of the world yet

Sure, I can agree with this & the argument could be made that Ned should have known better while Sansa could have known better but because she is so young it's not fair to say she should have known better. 

43 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa is in a new situation now. She also has to be loyal to her "new family". That's what has been taught to her. And Ned shouldn't have left her so alone with this dilemma, especially with so much at stake. But he in general just left her education to their Septa and didn't give it to much thought after that. He didn't really take the time to get to know his daughter well enough

Was she taught that though? She wasn't closed to being married yet, only betrothed & maybe Ned should have taken more time with her - he has definitely made mistakes - but he didn't make them intentionally & it worked out well enough where Arya was concerned (up until he dies anyway) So yeah, he could have, maybe he should have, it may have made a difference or it may have made Sansa rebel against him for trying to crush her dreams & ideals. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not possible. The times are all wrong.

The Wind Witch was going to leave on the evening tide, and Robert died just one hour after Sansa walked out of the Stark breakfast.

It's not possible that the Stark girls could have been overlooked for all that time. And in fact the Kingsguard came to snatch Arya from her fencing lesson, not from the Wind Witch.

Cersei had no time to change her plans, and didn't need to.

So what you are telling me is that, without any knowledge of Ned's plans to remove the girls, or of his plan to "dethrone" Joffrey, Cersei had it all in the works to do what she did? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Jon is very loyal to most of the Starks, but doesn't think once about how Sansa is doing in her captivity and later in her forced marriage to Tyrion at 12. He doesn't even asks himself, what has become of her after Tyrion murdered his father. His reaction to Arya being in trouble is however completely different.

With Robb it's the same. He doesn't get his sisters back. When he hears about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, his only comment is basically: "Shit, should have married her off myself." So he just would have used her himself in a way that would have been beneficial to him.

Arya does not once ask the Hound about Sansa, even though he mentions quite a bit.

The only person, who ever thinks of her is Cat.

So I really ask myself why there is always unquestionable loyalty demanded of Sansa, when everyone else is not thinking of her either.

 

I'm not questioning her loyalty for not thinking of her siblings though. Not thinking of her & her not thinking of them is selfish but a little understandable considering the trials they are all facing at the moment. Selfish but not disloyal.

[Springwatch]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So what you are telling me is that, without any knowledge of Ned's plans to remove the girls, or of his plan to "dethrone" Joffrey, Cersei had it all in the works to do what she did?  

Yes. Absolutely.

And you can believe it too, because her decisions here are literally no-brainers.

Every noble child is a valuable pawn - Tywin didn't want to foster Sweetrobin out the goodness of his heart, you know. And that was peacetime - in times of conflict, children are used like bargaining chips; we see again and again how valuable they are.

So securing the hostages isn't something clever and original Cersei has to think up herself. It's normal. Everyone does it. Even Ned Stark does it.

Knowledge isn't a problem either. Ned already told her about his plans to dethrone Joffrey. And she doesn't wait for the girls to try any escape plans, she goes in straight away to pick them up.

Nothing Sansa said made any difference.

[Nagini's Neville]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

By telling Ned's plans she was being disloyal to her family in order to try to get what she wants. Again, it doesn't make her horrible, she is a little girl, but it doesn't make it not disloyal either. Arya was also a little girl, a littler girl as a matter of fact & she would have never done this. 

She never stopped thinking. She was always thinking - of ways to get her way in the beginning & of ways to survive after that. 

& Therein lies her flaw. Or one of them. Every thing she does doesn't get justified because of the life she led or the way she was raised. She was spoiled & a little arrogant - some kids are. It's not a fatal flaw but a flaw none the less. There were plenty others, raised the same as her or similar, that wouldn't have reacted the way she did & I'm sure plenty that would have. My issue is that lots of people (not saying you in particular here) give Sansa a pass for what she has done but ridicule Arya. I'm more inclined to sympathize with Arya tbh because her transgressions occur AFTER the traumatic events she experienced shaped her. I'm not saying I can't empathize with Sansa though & she certainly didn't mean to cause any harm to anyone. She is just a little girl who made a mistake. She doesn't deserve to be hung for it, but it was a mistake she should not have made no matter how dreamy she was. 

Agreed but again so was Arya & she reacted very differently to the situation. 

Sorry the quoting isn't working right on my phone so I'll try it like this. 

Sansa having a strong imagination & being sheltered from death & violence is who she is but it isn't a justification for her actions, which is what I took from what you said. (if that was not your intent I apologize) She could have chosen to be more aware of her surroundings & take note of the warning signs placed in front of her but she didn't. This is a mistake even many adults make so I'm not trying to come down too hard on a little girl for it, but just because she is a little girl doesn't mean she couldn't have paid more attention. 

Sansa is growing up in a time & place where you obey your father without question. I disagree that the onus lies with Ned to say more or explain more to her. She should have done what her father told her to. That being said it may have been in Ned's benefit to explain things a little more thoroughly & opened his eyes a little himself in regards to what his daughters were telling him with their words & actions. 

I do agree it was not a betrayal because Sansa definitely lacked intent. It was disloyal though because even though she meant no harm to anyone she went behind her father's back & told something she was specifically told not to. 

Sansa's "awakening" was rough, maybe in many ways worse than for Arya - who experienced much more trauma because Arya knew the world was not a great place. Arya had been subjected to teasing & exclusion at a pretty young age (some at the hands of her sister) & was all in all better equipped to deal with what was to come. Sansa really had no idea - whether that was her own unwillingness to learn or an incapability of hers, I don't know. Most likely a combination of both. 

I'm not justifying sansa's actions. I'm explaining them. And I actually think it's the other way around. Sansa is way more ridiculed than Arya, when it comes the Mycah incident and her going to cersei. Because as you precisely have stated "Ayra never would have done that". You bring up the comparison with Ayra and that's what usually happens, when you try to discuss Sansa in those incidents. So I think you are doing the exact same thing here, just the other way around, that you accuse others of.

I just brought up Ayra in the context of responding to how loyal the other Starks are. That's all. There is no attacking/blaming Arya here at all.

By showing empathy towards Sansa you don't automatically declare yourself as unempathatic towards Ayra. But usually the majority of ppl empathizes with Arya anyway. And the topic is Sansa after all.

What I meant with "she stopped thinking" is, she didn't even consider possible consequences. Of course she thought of how to get what she wanted, that was the whole point of her going to Cersei after all, but she didn't think beyond that. She did not not care about the consequences for her family, because that wasn't even on her radar.

I disagree with you that the way your brain works is just a simple choice. That she just could have chosen to be more aware. You need someone to wake you up and to slap you in the face for that to happen. But instead she was rewarded for it. So she never had a reason tho change. Arya is different in that regard, because she is just different in nature. They are different types of ppl. And her not fitting into the role laid out for her and being bullied also "helped" with that. She had to overcome obstacles early in life. But does that mean we now have to hate Sansa, because she had it easy in life up until Ned's beheading? Apparently for some ppl, that's already enough. Sure you can hate her for bullying Ayra, but only if you never did something like that in your life as well imo. And Arya gave it back to her and insulted her just as much, so I don't even know, if we can call it bullying and not just fighting between siblings.

And also approaching puberty can make everything even more difficult and complicated (hormones), often your head is clearer at 9. 

So even Ayra is a littler sister - she has a completely different personality (she lives in the here and now) Usually that is something you can't chose at such a young age. But that happens mostly through nature (genes) and of course as well through you life experiences so far. Arya's nature is being grounded living in the here and now and she had to overcome obstacles. Sansa's nature being a dreamer/head in the clouds and being spoiled by everyone praising her and never/rarely criticizing her.

So that's why they behave differently in the same situation. It's not a justification, just an explanation. 

And I totally disagree, that Ned just telling her what to do should have been enough. That is bad child-rearing imo. Did you always obey your parent just because they said so? Did Arya always do that? (not that I blame her) 

And when you are approaching adolescence and you are throwing a temper-tantrum and you are all self-centered and wanting something really badly, it's pretty natural and common to rebel. Most teenagers do that. 

And you haven't responded to me questioning the loyalty of the other Starks, that you claim is so high. 

Sansa might be disloyal by just thinking of herself in that moment and not of her family, but so are Robb and Ned and they are wiser and older. And when it comes to Sansa I argue, that Jon cares just a little about her as she does about him and the same goes for Arya.

[Elegant Woes]

I wouldn't call Sansa's action as being disloyal in this. How can see be disloyal when Ned goes out of his way to keep her ignorant? Disobedient is the better word I would use. In that chapter Sansa repeatedly says she's feeling as wicked as Arya. The underlying message of this is that she feels frustrated at Ned for giving Arya what she wants despite being so spoiled and disobedient, whereas she, the good and obedient girl, gets nothing for following the rules. That's why Sansa decided, for the first time in her life, to rebel against her father. Unfortunately for her that led to a tragic situation. 

By the way am I the only one who sees the similarities between Sansa and Lyanna? They both defy their father in order to get what they want. Heck it could be argued what Lyanna did was way worse. Afterall she is 4-5 years older, and therefore old enough to understand the gravity of her actions, and what she did was more directly involved with the death of her father and brother. Yet she nearly doesn't get the hatred that Sansa gets. Why? Don't get me wrong I am not saying she should get the same hate. I like Lyanna and her ending was pretty tragic. But I find it somewhat hypocritical that she gets a pass. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not questioning her loyalty for not thinking of her siblings though. Not thinking of her & her not thinking of them is selfish but a little understandable considering the trials they are all facing at the moment. Selfish but not disloyal.

I think it's very natural. They are all in survival mode. The brain protects you. It doesn't allow certain thoughts to enter you mind, because it would be to overwhelming. You would shut down. Now is not the time to grief or ask to many questions you don't have answers for anyway. And you can't think to often of your old life, if you need to move forward. They are all actually very good at that.  There are a lot of studies on that phenomena.

[Mordred]

36 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I wouldn't call Sansa's action as being disloyal in this. How can see be disloyal when Ned goes out of his way to keep her ignorant? Disobedient is the better word I would use. In that chapter Sansa repeatedly says she's feeling as wicked as Arya. The underlying message of this is that she feels frustrated at Ned for giving Arya what she wants despite being so spoiled and disobedient, whereas she, the good and obedient girl, gets nothing for following the rules. That's why Sansa decided, for the first time in her life, to rebel against her father. Unfortunately for her that led to a tragic situation. 

By the way am I the only one who sees the similarities between Sansa and Lyanna? They both defy their father in order to get what they want. Heck it could be argued what Lyanna did was way worse. Afterall she is 4-5 years older, and therefore old enough to understand the gravity of her actions, and what she did was more directly involved with the death of her father and brother. Yet she nearly doesn't get the hatred that Sansa gets. Why? Don't get me wrong I am not saying she should get the same hate. I like Lyanna and her ending was pretty tragic. But I find it somewhat hypocritical that she gets a pass. 

Lyanna was worse only if she ran away.  The fault can't be hers if Rhaegar kidnapped her.  I wouldn't be quick to give Sansa a break.  That was a very selfish thing to do.  Going behind your father's back for the sake of remaining near Joffrey was the peak of selfishness.  It hurt the Starks badly and led to the deaths of their people. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No I don't because Robb was in an impossible situation in regards to his sister's. In order to have sacrificed them for his war it would need to be true that had he not called his banners & went to war he would have saved his sister's by doing so. That isn't true. 

Impossible how? He did a lot of other things as well, that ppl didn't agree with.

He could have exchanged his sisters for Jaime, but he considers Jaime as to valuable for his enemies. How is that not sacrificing them for the benefit of his war? And even Robb himself says he should have gotten her back, when he heard the news of her being married. He says he should have married her to the Tyerlls. So he could have found a way to get her back, if he really had wanted to (badly enough) He did a lot of other things in the name of honor or the honor of others, that ppl didn't approve of.

[Mordred]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Jon is very loyal to most of the Starks, but doesn't think once about how Sansa is doing in her captivity and later in her forced marriage to Tyrion at 12. He doesn't even asks himself, what has become of her after Tyrion murdered his father. His reaction to Arya being in trouble is however completely different.

With Robb it's the same. He doesn't get his sisters back. When he hears about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, his only comment is basically: "Shit, should have married her off myself." So he just would have used her himself in a way that would have been beneficial to him.

Arya does not once ask the Hound about Sansa, even though he mentions quite a bit.

The only person, who ever thinks of her is Cat.

So I really ask myself why there is always unquestionable loyalty demanded of Sansa, when everyone else is not thinking of her either.

 

There exists a gender bias among the fans.  The females get less slack than the boys.  It's true.  However, Sansa still behaved badly by any measure and caused the demise of her family. 

Jon Snow was doing what was expected of him as a man of the watch.  The sisters are no longer his to worry about.  He only has his new sworn brothers and the defense of the wall for family.  That satisfied most men but Jon is an emotional person who acts based on how he feels.  He likes Arya; therefore, he worried about her.  He and Sansa were never on good terms and his feelings for the red head was not as deeply felt.  Martin wrote his character that way.  You could say Jon was sitting on the fence all of the time.  He had one ass cheek at the Night Watch and the other chunk of blob at the Starks.  He didn't let go of the Starks as was expected of him. 

Robb Stark needed to put the war effort head of the family.  The victory depended on what he can do with MVP Jaime.  I would not trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya.  Knowing the value the enemy placed on Jaime.  Jaime was their salvation in a war they were losing.  You don't throw that away for your siblings. 

[Elegant Woes]

13 minutes ago, Mordred said:

However, Sansa still behaved badly by any measure and caused the demise of her family. 

I am sorry but when did Sansa cause the demise of her family? If anything Sansa went out of her way to keep her family safe and she risked her own well being in the process. And she did that without having the clear picture of what is happening. For all she knew Ned could have been a traitor, but never did that thought cross her mind. 

[Mordred]

5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I am sorry but when did Sansa cause the demise of her family? If anything Sansa went out of way to protect her father and even risked her own well being in the process. And that is without having the clear picture of what is happening. For all she knew Ned could have been a traitor, but never did that thought cross her mind. 

Dad has a secret plan.  So keep it a secret and don't say anything. 

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Lyanna was worse only if she ran away.  The fault can't be hers if Rhaegar kidnapped her.  I wouldn't be quick to give Sansa a break.  That was a very selfish thing to do.  Going behind your father's back for the sake of remaining near Joffrey was the peak of selfishness.  It hurt the Starks badly and led to the deaths of their people. 

You ever thought about Ned trusting LF, giving away to much information to him without no reason, whats so ever; telling Cersei he knew the kids werent Bobby's and basically telling her that she had to go into hiding and he would tell Bobby and then also NOT telling Bobby had anything to do with him his death and that of their ppl? You really think Cersei was just sitting around chilling after she heard that? You really think the Lannisters weren't ready and set to go at anytime with this big thread looming other them? Their lives were in danger. And we know Cersei does absolutely everything for her children.

The only thing that might have been different is that Arya and Sansa might have gotten out of KL. Which most likely would have resulted in their deaths. But as @Springwatch has pointed out, it's extremely likely under the given circumstance, that Cersei would have secured them as hostages anyway. Would have been very stupid of her not to.

[Elegant Woes]

11 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Dad has a secret plan.  So keep it a secret and don't say anything. 

I don't get what you mean with this. Care to explain it better? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

not justifying sansa's actions. I'm explaining them. 

That's fine. I did say if you weren't trying to justify them then I apologize. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I actually think it's the other way around. Sansa is way more ridiculed than Arya, when it comes the Mycah incident and her going to cersei

Absolutely Sansa is more ridiculed in these instances, Arya didn't do anything here. Sansa isn't ridiculed at all for Arya killing people - because Sansa didn't do anything there. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Because as you precisely have stated "Ayra never would have done that". You bring up the comparison with Ayra and that's what usually happens, when you try to discuss Sansa in those incidents. So I think you are doing the exact same thing here, just the other way around, that you accuse others of

Arya wouldn't have done that. The same as Sansa wouldn't have killed the insurance sales man. I didn't bring up Arya to say she is better than Sansa, I brought her up to say Sansa's actions cannot be blamed on her raising or surroundings because Arya had the same ones & didn't & wouldn't have done what Sansa did. The point being it is most certainly possible to have had Ned's parenting &/or lack thereof & not come to the conclusion that you should go to the Queen with secret plans. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just brought up Ayra in the context of responding to how loyal the other Starks are. That's all. There is no attacking/blaming Arya here at all

Yeah me too but apparently I'm doing exactly what I'm accusing others of. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

showing empathy towards Sansa you don't automatically declare yourself as unempathatic towards Ayra. But usually the majority of ppl empathizes with Arya anyway. And the topic is Sansa after all

Correct & vice versa. Just because I empathize with Arya does not mean I'm u empathetic toward Sansa. I do believe I specifically stated I empathize with Sansa. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

disagree with you that the way your brain works is just a simple choice. That she just could have chosen to be more aware

Choosing to be more aware is not choosing how your brain works. It's just making a conscious effort to be more aware - something people who are not naturally observant have to do if they wish to be more observant or aware. Because she naturally has her head in the clouds doesn't mean she can't make a conscious effort to pay attention. She can't change how she is "naturally" but she can understand she is this way naturally & make an effort to pay more attention if she wishes. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You need someone to wake you up and to slap you in the face for that to happen. But instead she was rewarded for it. So she never had a reason tho change

Sure sometimes. I think Sansa would have come around eventually on her own as she lived life it would have slowly come to light that life wasn't a fairy tale. She had to be slapped in the face & woke up because she didn't have time to wait around & learn it slowly - thankfully she got it or she probably wouldn't have survived her ordeal with the Lannisters let alone LF. 

I agree wasn't given much of a motivation to not live in fairy tale land. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Arya is different in that regard, because she is just different in nature. They are different types of ppl. And her not fitting into the role laid out for her and being bullied also "helped" with that. She had to overcome obstacles early in life. But does that mean we now have to hate Sansa, because she had it easy in life up until Ned's beheading?

Of course not, nor have I suggested such. I wouldn't. She is a little girl who made a mistake. Nothing to hate her over. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure you can hate her for bullying Ayra, but only if you never did something like that in your life as well imo. And Arya gave it back to her and insulted her just as much, so I don't even know, if we can call it bullying and not just fighting between siblings

I don't hate her for bullying Arya? I was using it as an example as to why Arya is more aware of the "uglies" in life. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And also approaching puberty can make everything even more difficult and complicated (hormones), often your head is clearer at 9. 

So even Ayra is a littler sister - she has a completely different personality (she lives in the here and now) Usually that is something you can't chose at such a young age. But that happens mostly through nature (genes) and of course as well through you life experiences so far. Arya's nature is being grounded living in the here and now and she had to overcome obstacles. Sansa's nature being a dreamer/head in the clouds and being spoiled by everyone praising her and never/rarely criticizing her.

So that's why they behave differently in the same situation. It's not a justification, just an explanation

I don't know about having a clearer head at 9 than 11 but I understand there are reasons & things that contributed to Sansa being who she is & behaving the way she does. Every one is shaped in some way by their experiences in life. I don't think it's the only mold we come from but it contributed to it. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I totally disagree, that Ned just telling her what to do should have been enough. That is bad child-rearing imo. Did you always obey your parent just because they said so? Did Arya always do that? (not that I blame her) 

No, I often disregarded very sound advice from my parents but that doesn't mean I should have. I, like Sansa, would have been much better off to take my parents word & follow it in most cases. That I didn't, or she didn't, isn't the fault of our parents though. 

I'm a very firm believer that the fault or reward of your actions lie with you & you alone, so maybe we will just have to agree to disagree here. I agreed Ned explaining things or having a heart to heart with Sansa may have improved the situation but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have listened anyway. 

They lived in a time where children are expected to take their parents word without question. Sansa had been, by all accounts, an obedient child so there wasn't really any reason for Ned to expect she would be disobedient here. He told her something & expected her to follow it whether she liked it or not. She didn't by choice. There may be reasons, even very good reasons for her to do it but if you shouldn't have, you shouldn't have, & she shouldn't have. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And you haven't responded to me questioning the loyalty of the other Starks, that you claim is so high

Actually I did. I don't recall ever saying their loyalty is "so high" only that the other Starks have behaved in a manner that is indicative of loyalty to each other while Sansa has had 2 instances in which she did not. 

 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa might be disloyal by just thinking of herself in that moment and not of her family, but so are Robb and Ned and they are wiser and older. And when it comes to Sansa I argue, that Jon cares just a little about her as she does about him and the same goes for Arya

Again, I never said this nor will I. Not thinking of each other may be considered selfish but IMO is somewhat understandable considering what they are all going through. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Impossible how? He did a lot of other things as well, that ppl didn't agree with

People disagreeing with something doesn't make it impossible. I'm saying there was no good way for him to rescue his sisters so not doing so is not a disloyalty to them. 

If he had the capability to rescue them & just didn't that may be another story but what was he to do? Storm KL? That would have gotten them all killed. Should he have traded Jaime for them? Look what happened when Cat did just that. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He could have exchanged his sisters for Jaime, but he considers Jaime as to valuable for his enemies. How is that not sacrificing them for the benefit of his war? And even Robb himself says he should have gotten her back, when he heard the news of her being married. He says he should have married her to the Tyerlls. So he could have found a way to get her back, if he really had wanted to (badly enough) He did a lot of other things in the name of honor or the honor of others, that ppl didn't approve of

He could have exchanged Jaime for them if he wished to derail his whole cause (which is what happened when his mother did) This is assuming the Lannisters would have agreed to this exchange anyway. Remember they don't even have Arya so how can they agree to an exchange for someone they don't have? 

I don't understand how thinking he should have married her to someone equates he could have gotten her back if he really wanted to. What do you propose he do to get them back? He couldn't storm KL & he couldn't trade Jaime, which is evidenced by the fact that this was actually attempted. Not by him, but by Cat. 

He did nothing to be disloyal to his family. He called the banners & went to war, for his family. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't get what you mean with this. Care to explain it better? 

The poster is saying Ned had a secret plan & that the girls should have kept it a secret. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

Dad has a secret plan.  So keep it a secret and don't say anything. 

Sansa is just being a typical teenager. Teens do the opposite of whatever parents say, especially if they make demands.  "I command you to do this thing" --> teenager does the opposite of the thing.

Adults from both houses pushed for this match and Sansa ran with it. Sansa has no idea why her father has switched sides, she doesn't even know that Joffrey is a bastard (even though she unintentionally helped Ned realize that). Catelyn wanted the match so that the Stark family could look unquestionably devoted while Ned investigated Jon Arryn's murder. Now, suddenly...they don't. No wonder Sansa is confused. Breaking a betrothal is a big deal and her father should have been better prepared. He definitely shouldn't have waited for Cersei to turn herself in. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The same as Sansa is not to blame for the resulting actions of Cersei & Joffrey, neither is Ned. Cersei & Joffrey hold the blame for their own actions. The difference in Ned & Sansa to me is that every action of Ned's was to keep his family safe. He never did anything solely to get his own way or fulfil his own wants. Sansa, twice, once when she lied about the incident with Joff & Mycah & again when she went to Cersei about Ned's plans did so solely to fulfil her own wishes & against the word of her father. 

Sure, I can agree with this & the argument could be made that Ned should have known better while Sansa could have known better but because she is so young it's not fair to say she should have known better. 

Was she taught that though? She wasn't closed to being married yet, only betrothed & maybe Ned should have taken more time with her - he has definitely made mistakes - but he didn't make them intentionally & it worked out well enough where Arya was concerned (up until he dies anyway) So yeah, he could have, maybe he should have, it may have made a difference or it may have made Sansa rebel against him for trying to crush her dreams & ideals. 

I don't hold Ned and Sansa accountable to the same extent. Because Sansa is a child. Children make mistakes, it's normal. Ned however is an adult, the father,the Lord. He is the patriarch. He has a lot more responsibility towards his family (we see what happens with his daughters, when they have no one to protect them anymore) and the north. And he is also responsible for keeping his children in check.

And I totally disagree, that all of his actions were to keep his family safe. If that were the case, he wouldn't have betrothed Sansa so quickly to Joffrey without even knowing him or at least ended the engagement right after the first warning signs. He would have sent his daughters home after he was attacked. He would have told Cat, that he is not Jon's father and saved her and Jon a lot of pain. He would have told King Bobby about cersei and the kids. He told Cersei, that he knew- that was big enough of him and already really dangerous. His responsibility should have been first and foremost towards his family and the north. I understand why he told Cersei, but even that was already putting his honor and the Lannisters before his own family and endangering them. At least after that it should have been enough. 

Again and again he has put his honor before the well-being of his family and that also very selfish.

 

But it didn't work out with Arya, that's why it worked out for in the real world. Arya did well in the real world, because she didn't take on to the education of her mother and their Septa. She rejected it and rebelled against it and both Septa and mother were equally frustrated with her and even punished her for it. Ned was not in charge of educating the girls- that was Septa Mordane.

 

“That’s enough.” Her father’s voice was curt and hard. “The septa is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.”

“I don’t want to be a lady!” Arya flared. “I ought to snap this toy across my knee here and now, and put an end to this nonsense.”

 

That's why he should have checked in with Sansa the same way he did with Arya. Especially as he noticed all these warning signs with Joff. He is an adult, he should have noticed them way earlier and should have explained everything to his daughter properly. He should have noticed how "in love" she already was with Joffrey and the danger in that. How many teenagers are with a bf/gf their parents don't approve of and just forbidding the relationship (especially without giving proper reasons, "Because I said so") is only making the issue worse. There so many stories about kids being with horrible ppl, who f.e. abuse them and it's still incredibly difficult to get them out of it, especially if you approach it the wrong way.

 

“Arya, sit down. I need to try to explain some things to you.”

 “You are too young to be burdened with all my cares,” he told her, “but you are also a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words.” “Winter is coming,” Arya whispered. “The hard cruel times,” her father said. “We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya.” “The direwolf,” she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid. “Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me.”

“I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will I lie to you. We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience … at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up.”

 

He probably should have frightened Sansa a bit, but he was so used to her always obeying, that it probably didn't even cross his mind that she wouldn't this time. And that's want I mean with him not really being up to date with what was going on with her and that's his fault- he is the father. He took her being the "good girl" for granted. 

 

And that is absolutely a big part of the education of a future lady/queen. You are taught to obey your husband.

And part of that is being loyal to him. Just as Robb and Jon have been taught sword fighting and battle strategy.

I think Ran wrote some interesting stuff about how Sansa had been expected to be loyal to Joffrey as well. But I can't find it rn. But imo it's pretty obvious anyway.

And it reflects very well in her answer .

“I don’t know. I don't remember." She is caught between two stools. And is unable to speak against either stool, because loyalty is excepted from both. Ned should have never gotten her into that situation in the first place. He should have known better.

 

 

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville That's the thing though, Ned didn't see the warning signs in Joffrey. He was, just like Sansa, brushing it under the rug. Ned even says at one moment that he had a small liking towards Joffrey and when Robert said otherwise his reaction was basically 'boys will be boys'. This happened after the Darry incident.