Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Eli Cross]

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then Robb lost his purpose. And because he didn't try to rescue Sansa, his mother felt the need to free Jaime.

Purpose can change.  He can't rescue a dead father.  He needed a new mission.  The removal of Joffrey.  The geography was bad for a future king in the north and the riverlands.  How can they go back home and protect the Riverlands from the Lannisters? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don't hold Ned and Sansa accountable to the same extent. Because Sansa is a child. Children make mistakes, it's normal. Ned however is an adult, the father,the Lord. He is the patriarch. He has a lot more responsibility towards his family (we see what happens with his daughters, when they have no one to protect them anymore) and the north. And he is also responsible for keeping his children in check

Sure he should be held to a hire standard but adults make mistakes too. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I totally disagree, that all of his actions were to keep his family safe. If that were the case, he wouldn't have betrothed Sansa so quickly to Joffrey without even knowing him or at least ended the engagement right after the first warning signs.

Is it typical for a father to get to know the kid he is betrothing his daughter to? I would think not. He could not refuse the betrothal of his daughter to the heir to the IT. What was he supposed to say? Sorry Robert but I would like to get to know the guy first? This isn't the modern day we are talking about here. Ned didn't see or know any warning signs. Sansa did but lied about them to Ned. He tried to end the engagement eventually though but Sansa told. I don't understand how any of that could be Ned putting his family in harms way. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. He would have sent his daughters home after he was attacked. 

He was out for a bit after being attacked & it seems a very odd thing for him to do, if he were trying to keep his daughters safe, to send them through the very streets he was just attacked on. He would be no use to protect them, the roads were not safe because people were hunting for Tyrion & Cat. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He would have told Cat, that he is not Jon's father and saved her and Jon a lot of pain

He didn't tell Cat, presumably, to protect her & the children. I thought that was pretty well established. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He would have told King Bobby about cersei and the kids. He told Cersei, that he knew- that was big enough of him and already really dangerous

I agree he should have told Robert but not doing so was not, not putting his family first. He didn't know Cersei would act the way she did, he was trying to give her & her children a way to survive. That's compassion, not putting your family in harms way. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Again and again he has put his honor before the well-being of his family and that also very selfish

I mean, I guess it can be viewed that way but I'm a little confused as to why this whole conversation has turned into how selfish or unprotective Ned has been. None of that changed what Sansa did, & the topic is "Sansa, after all"

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's why he should have checked in with Sansa the same way he did with Arya. Especially as he noticed all these warning signs with Joff. He is an adult, he should have noticed them way earlier and should have explained everything to his daughter properly

What warning signs from Joff did Ned notice? Again, maybe he should have explained things to Sansa but that doesn't mean she should have disobeyed him & went behind his back to tell his plans. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

There so many stories about kids being with horrible ppl, who f.e. abuse them and it's still incredibly difficult to get them out of it, especially if you approach it the wrong way.

But this isn't today. It is very difficult to get someone out of an abusive relationship today but it wasn't all that difficult in the Sansa situation. Ned was removing his children from KL & breaking the betrothal. It wouldn't matter how love sick Sansa was at that point she would be in WF & Joff in KL & they would both be betrothed to someone else. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And that is absolutely a big part of the education of a future lady/queen. You are taught to obey your husband

He wasn't her husband yet though & aren't they also taught to obey their father? Obey their King? I think it's a little hypocritical to say well Sansa had to lie to cover for Joff because she is expected to obey her husband but in the same conversation say she shouldn't have been expected to obey her father without question. He should have done this & that & explained things better so that she wouldn't have went behind his back. Joffrey didn't explain anything to her or even ask her to lie for him, she just did. & Sansa knows well enough to know that ultimately the King is who she must obey & her King commanded her to tell the truth about what happened with Arya/Mycah, yet she lied. 

Don't get me wrong I understand where that lie came from. She was put in a very tough situation there - lie to the King or expose the man you will have to marry & future King. I get it. I'm just saying Sansa knew she should have obeyed her father when he told her of his plans. Regardless if he explained anything, she knew. 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don’t know. I don't remember." She is caught between two stools. And is unable to speak against either stool, because loyalty is excepted from both. Ned should have never gotten her into that situation in the first place. He should have known better

This is the very first incident where Joff is anything other than gentlemanly to Sansa & Ned doesn't know anything about it because Sansa didn't tell him. So how was he supposed to not get her into this situation to begin with? As far as Ned knows Joffrey got bettered by a girl & her direwolf & as many children would do of his age, lied because he was embarrassed. Nothing to warrant ending the betrothal with the heir to the IT. The warning sign was when Sansa tried to comfort Joff & he freaked out on her. But only Sansa knows about that & wasn't telling. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

course he should have traded Jaime for them. Cat had to do it that way, because he forbid it. He was very vehemently against trading them. And later even did admit, that it would have been the right thing to do. 

It would have been a very easy and safe way to get her back, instead she was tortured in KL

How though? When they didn't even have Arya for starters he would have had to trade his most valuable prisoner for one sister. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't have because I would have. My sisters are everything to me. But had he done that do you not think there would have been great discord among his men over it? If Sansa isn't betraying her family because she is expected to be loyal to her new family how can it be Robb being disloyal to her when he won't make a decision that would be detrimental to his cause? 

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He knows full well he could have gotten them back. Cersei and Tyrion want Jaime

Yes they want him back but they don't have the full trade to make. He knows full well he should have tried or wishes he would have tried but it still would have been detrimental to his cause. It would not have been an easy task I guarantee. I do remember an agreed upon arrangement to receive his father's sword & bones also yet he never received his father's sword. 

I'm not saying he shouldn't have tried for his sister's. I most definitely would have, at all costs & my cause be damned especially after they had already killed my father. But I would likely have went down in history as the Queen who gave up the North for her two little sisters. It would not have worked out well for Robb & he knows it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

His whole cause was a revenge war, in which a lot of ppl died. He had multiple options to choose from (more than can be said for most other ppl) He decided to stay king of the North and fight his war. And in that he sacrificed Sansa (and he also thought he was sacrificing Arya)

It didn't start out as a revenge war. It started out to free his father & they beheaded him. I might be a little hesitant to try to turn my cause into "free my sisters" after that. His men are just not going to react the same way if their lives are being sacrificed to free his sister's. He knows it, they know it, & most on the forum know it. While that stinks he cannot fight anything with no army. 

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

didn't work for Cat, because she had to do it the wrong way.

An official hostage exchange would have of course looked very differently. With lots of guards and stuff. Was done all the time during and after wartime and shouldn't have been difficult at all

I agree it would have been different than the way Cat did it in that they could have sent guards etc & had a higher likelihood of success. When I say look how it turned out for Cat I mean look at how the men of Robb's army reacted to Cat releasing Jaime for her child/ren. Most of them forgave her, yes, but gave her excuses like she is a woman & has a mother's heart etc. They would not have made excuses for Robb because he is not a woman & does not have a mother's heart. They would have called him weak & dropped from his army like flies. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Sansa and Arya are not comparable, we already had this conversation, Arya lacked of so many Sansa's traits, her beayty and her lady skills?? That made her develop a completely different mindset, that happen with Jon and Robb and with Tyrion and Jaime, Cersei.

For starters I'm not hating on Sansa at all. Just because they have differences does not mean they are not comparable. They were born to the same parents, raised in the same castle, in the same family, with the same "tutors" & the same parents. That doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same, obviously, but it most certainly means they are comparable. 

 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Sansa didn't betrayed anyone, nor she was disloyal to anyone, she wasn't thinking on the consequences, just as Ned, Robb, Jon or Cat didn't think on the consequences either and i don't think no one is calling Cat disloyal for freeing Jaime

Whether or not she thought about the consequences has no bearing on whether or not she was disloyal. If I stab someone but don't think about the fact that they could die does that make me not a murderer if they die? 

Before anyone gets in an uproar I'm not likening what Sansa did to murder, I'm using that to explain my point. 

I've freely admitted Sansa didn't intend anyone to come to harm with her actions but going behind her father's back to reveal his secret plans is being disloyal to her father & family, no matter what spin you put on it. 

Ned, Jon, Robb, & Cat may have made poor decisions but they did not do something that they knew was directly against their family. 

I suppose it could be argued that Cat was being disloyal to Robb by freeing Jaime & it most certainly has been argued but in doing so is being loyal to her daughter's & since the topic here is Sansa & her discretions I would imagine that would be the majority of what we see here. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I definitely agree. I just don't understand how Sansa should have gotten it, when her own father was even unable to spot those signs. I like Ned. He has flaws, that make him human. I just think he should be held more accountable than Sansa with this whole issue. Or at least she shouldn't be judged to harshly, because even Ned got it way to late.

I'm not judging her too harshly I don't think but the issue here is that Sansa saw the warning signs while Ned really had no way of knowing them. He didn't witness them & Sansa didn't tell him. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, that's exactly my point. He also did other things like not hold his promise to the Freys and kill Karstark. When he wanted to, he found a way. He even said himself later, getting Sansa back would have been strategically wise.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

So he could have found a way, but he didn't even consider it.

He also maybe... could have just ended his war or not even entered it. He could have gotten Sansa back. His father declared himself a traitor to save his daughters and Robb just leaves them there. Instead Sansa was abused in KL and he couldn't be sure they wouldn't kill her as well. They had just murdered his father against their own best interests.

"Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly."

Robb had his list of priorities and Sansa and Arya just weren't very high on that list.

I can agree with this mostly. He did do other things he knew would cause discord so in that sense, yes. If he were going to do things like this anyway, why wouldn't one of them be to rescue his sister's. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's not fair to solely blame her for his death, to ignore how other characters are similarly deluded, or to blame her without bothering to understand the context of age or experience, which is what you're doing. Teenagers make disastrous mistakes and ignore "warning signs" to themselves and others. Not only that, King's Landing is a place neither she or her father understood very well. She's thrust into a high stakes game and it's normal for her to react as she has, because her parents haven't prepared her for it, because they're also too trusting. 

I feel like some people want to defend Sansa at all costs to the point they put argument in where it isn't. The poster you quoted specifically said Sansa was partly  to blame but your whole paragraph goes on the premise that this poster is solely blaming Sansa - in fact that's exactly what you say & accuse the poster of when it's very clearly written that they believe her to be partly to blame. 

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For starters I'm not hating on Sansa at all. Just because they have differences does not mean they are not comparable. They were born to the same parents, raised in the same castle, in the same family, with the same "tutors" & the same parents. That doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same, obviously, but it most certainly means they are comparable. 

 

Should we compare Tyrion and Jaime?? Ceresi and Jaime?? or Jon and Robb?? Or how about Brienne and pretty much every noble girl in Westeros??

I feel that only if we start pointing at the obvious misfits  and what qualities and mindset said misfits developed exclusively by being misfits, we're getting to somewhere.

 

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Whether or not she thought about the consequences has no bearing on whether or not she was disloyal. If I stab someone but don't think about the fact that they could die does that make me not a murderer if they die? 

Before anyone gets in an uproar I'm not likening what Sansa did to murder, I'm using that to explain my point. 

I've freely admitted Sansa didn't intend anyone to come to harm with her actions but going behind her father's back to reveal his secret plans is being disloyal to her father & family, no matter what spin you put on it. 

Ofc it has bearing, the penal code makes it clear.

 

32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ned, Jon, Robb, & Cat may have made poor decisions but they did not do something that they knew was directly against their family. 

I suppose it could be argued that Cat was being disloyal to Robb by freeing Jaime & it most certainly has been argued but in doing so is being loyal to her daughter's & since the topic here is Sansa & her discretions I would imagine that would be the majority of what we see here. 

• Ned ignored the obvious danger for his children by revealing the incest.
• Cat and Jaime.
• Robb deciding that Sansa simply didn't worth the effort.

It seems that is disloyalty, no matter what spin you punt in it.

[Mordred]

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm not accusing Jon of anything, I'm just saying he and Sansa both kind of don't care about one another - that's all.

And I actually totally disagree. Most ppl would find it incredible difficult to just stay in a military organization, while not so far away their family is murdered, imprisoned, lost, married against their will and fighting a war. I would even argue, you got to be a bit psychopathic, if that didn't to affected you deeply . And it at least would demand tremendous willpower not to rush to their aid and most would fail.

Robb Stark didn't need to do anything. Nobody forced him to fight this war. And yeah I personally would throw that away for the lives and well-beings of my siblings. I basically would throw everything away for that.

Leaders need to put the needs of the many over the needs of the one.  It doesn't matter if they loved the one more than they love the many.  Leadership will require tough choices.

[Mordred]

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This isn't so much a comparison between male and female, but between child and adult. Daughter and father/caretaker. (I would actually argue the women get more slack that the men, but whatever- I don't even really care) 

There is an old guy, who knows a lot about the world and has a lot of responsibility and than there is a kid, who doesn't know shit and is self-centered, cause that's how kids are.

And she did absolutely not cause the demise of her family. Ned did. As I already listed the obvious reason. The moment he told Cersei, he knew about the kids it was over. Can nobody tell me Cersei, just twiddled her thumbs after that, when her children were in danger. Nah, she was teaming up with LF, who also knew interesting things about Ned and was getting ready for every possibility.

Sansa already witnessed what happened to Mycah, Lady, Nymeria.  She knows Joffrey's pettiness and cruel streak.  But because she's not smart even for her age all that data went unprocessed.  The typical child of her age would not have the nerve to betray their father like that.  That was selfish. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Should we compare Tyrion and Jaime?? Ceresi and Jaime?? or Jon and Robb?? Or how about Brienne and pretty much every noble girl in Westeros?

I guess I'm really not sure what your point is. Yes, there could be something to be discovered in comparing any of them & as a matter of fact there is currently a thread comparing Jon & Robb. Just because you don't like the comparison does not mean they cannot be compared. I didn't compare them to say anything negative about Sansa but it seems, even in a thread created to discuss Sansa's discretions, you will be ridiculed for doing so. 

I see plenty of "blind hate" in the forum in regards to different characters, including Sansa, but I'm not one of those people so I'm not sure what exactly it is that I've done to frustrate you. 

At any rate I'm allowed to compare Sansa & Arya in any manner I wish, whether you like it or not. Sorry. 

37 minutes ago, frenin said:

feel that only if we start pointing at the obvious misfits  and what qualities and mindset said misfits developed exclusively by being misfits, we're getting to somewhere.

I'm not sure if you didn't read the post I compared them in or if maybe you misunderstood it but when I compared them it was merely to say that Sansa's rearing cannot be solely to blame for who she is because there are other children, other girls (Arya) raised the same way who turned out different. For better or worse they are different people so while life experiences & parentage certainly play a role in who we are they are not the only determining factor. 

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc it has bearing, the penal code makes it clear

What penal code? Certainly not any penal code in Westeros not in real life. 

The penal code states for someone to not be responsible for their actions they must be incapable of telling right from wrong. Not that they must not "think of the consequences" further more Sansa's "offence" was not illegal nor have I claimed it to be. It was disloyal to her father & family. 

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned ignored the obvious danger for his children by revealing the incest

Explain to me how this is being disloyal to his family? It could be argued it was being disloyal to his King, but not his family. 

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cat and Jaime

Again this can be argued to be disloyal to Robb but since it was an act of loyalty to her girls it can't be said it was a disloyalty to her family, because the girls are a part of her family. 

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robb deciding that Sansa simply didn't worth the effort

A selfish decision at best & an asshole one at worst, but not disloyalty. 

I don't understand why this is coming across so harsh that you are frustrated with me about it. Nor do I understand how to better communicate the differences in what Robb & the rest did to what Sansa did. 

Sansa, deliberately, went behind her father's back to reveal plans she was told not to. Maybe that means she was being loyal to her new family & if you think that's where her loyalties should lie at that point then fine, but she can't have been being loyal to her new family & her old family at the same time, in this instance. 

Not another Stark deliberately acted against another barring Catelyn going against Robb - because it was to save her other children though I understand it. 

[Nagini's Neville]

41 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Sansa already witnessed what happened to Mycah, Lady, Nymeria.  She knows Joffrey's pettiness and cruel streak.  But because she's not smart even for her age all that data went unprocessed.  The typical child of her age would not have the nerve to betray their father like that.  That was selfish. 

Even if you think she is dumb. She is still not responsible for Mycah, Lady, Nymeria. I disagree with that the typical child her age wouldn't go behind their parents back like that. (Because that's all that she thought it was.) From my experience of being a kid that age myself and from my friends and all the kids around me. Lot of kids actually did way worse. But maybe you grew up in a neighborhood with especially well behaved kids  

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure he should be held to a hire standard but adults make mistakes too. 

Is it typical for a father to get to know the kid he is betrothing his daughter to? I would think not. He could not refuse the betrothal of his daughter to the heir to the IT. What was he supposed to say? Sorry Robert but I would like to get to know the guy first? This isn't the modern day we are talking about here. Ned didn't see or know any warning signs. Sansa did but lied about them to Ned. He tried to end the engagement eventually though but Sansa told. I don't understand how any of that could be Ned putting his family in harms way. 

He was out for a bit after being attacked & it seems a very odd thing for him to do, if he were trying to keep his daughters safe, to send them through the very streets he was just attacked on. He would be no use to protect them, the roads were not safe because people were hunting for Tyrion & Cat. 

He didn't tell Cat, presumably, to protect her & the children. I thought that was pretty well established. 

I agree he should have told Robert but not doing so was not, not putting his family first. He didn't know Cersei would act the way she did, he was trying to give her & her children a way to survive. That's compassion, not putting your family in harms way. 

I mean, I guess it can be viewed that way but I'm a little confused as to why this whole conversation has turned into how selfish or unprotective Ned has been. None of that changed what Sansa did, & the topic is "Sansa, after all"

What warning signs from Joff did Ned notice? Again, maybe he should have explained things to Sansa but that doesn't mean she should have disobeyed him & went behind his back to tell his plans. 

But this isn't today. It is very difficult to get someone out of an abusive relationship today but it wasn't all that difficult in the Sansa situation. Ned was removing his children from KL & breaking the betrothal. It wouldn't matter how love sick Sansa was at that point she would be in WF & Joff in KL & they would both be betrothed to someone else. 

He wasn't her husband yet though & aren't they also taught to obey their father? Obey their King? I think it's a little hypocritical to say well Sansa had to lie to cover for Joff because she is expected to obey her husband but in the same conversation say she shouldn't have been expected to obey her father without question. He should have done this & that & explained things better so that she wouldn't have went behind his back. Joffrey didn't explain anything to her or even ask her to lie for him, she just did. & Sansa knows well enough to know that ultimately the King is who she must obey & her King commanded her to tell the truth about what happened with Arya/Mycah, yet she lied. 

Don't get me wrong I understand where that lie came from. She was put in a very tough situation there - lie to the King or expose the man you will have to marry & future King. I get it. I'm just saying Sansa knew she should have obeyed her father when he told her of his plans. Regardless if he explained anything, she knew. 

This is the very first incident where Joff is anything other than gentlemanly to Sansa & Ned doesn't know anything about it because Sansa didn't tell him. So how was he supposed to not get her into this situation to begin with? As far as Ned knows Joffrey got bettered by a girl & her direwolf & as many children would do of his age, lied because he was embarrassed. Nothing to warrant ending the betrothal with the heir to the IT. The warning sign was when Sansa tried to comfort Joff & he freaked out on her. But only Sansa knows about that & wasn't telling. 

I feel like we have a misunderstanding. What Sansa did was wrong. She should have listened to her father. Me listing Robb's and Ned's moments of "selfishness".  Is just in comparison. Because in the beginning your opinion was Sansa is the only one, who is "disloyal" and the rest of them are all "loyal" to one another. And I vehemently disagree with that. I just think very often Sansa gets judged way harsher. To the point were a lot of ppl make her solely responsible for everything bad, that ever happened to the Stark family. Without even looking at the "facts" of what the actual consequences of her actions are.

Ned often gets off the hook, by "just being stupid and honorable". While Sansa is often painted as the evil selfish witch, who knowingly caused the demise of her whole family. (not saying that anyone did that here) I'm just saying that in general, this is just my personal impression, men's behavior in the series often gets excused by "the time" and "the position" the are in, while women's behavior isn't.

Sansa very often is put "on trail" for the big mistake she made in KL (while not regarding the knowledge she had up until that moment of the world in general and that she didn't know what would happen. Basically, yeah, she made a big selfish mistake, but without any evil intent ever. Had someone told her her father would be killed she would have never done it.), while Robb not attempting to get his sisters back (while doing other stupid things. And getting sansa back might not have been stupid after all, because of marriage alliance and he said so himself later- but he did not even try to find a solution) gets hardly criticized at all - he gets more critique for betraying the Freys, than for that. And Robb had to know that it was likely, they hurt his sisters or that they could even kill them. 

But maybe it came across like I don't think Sansa did something wrong and Ned is basically all to blame for what she did. That was not my intention. Even though I will admit, that my opinion in general is that the parents are responsible for their children and their actions and if a child that age makes a mistake (and said child isn't a psychopath or anything similar) it is connected to the parenting and it's the parents responsibility first and foremost. Children are different, they need different parenting and it's their parents job to provide that.(That doesn't mean that I don't think the parents should make their kids take responsibility for their own actions though, but that's part of the parenting) That's also why I blame Cersei, Robert, Jaime a lot more than I blame Joffrey. So maybe we just have a fundamental disagreement here and just have to accept that  

In general I actually never speak of any of the Stark's behavior towards each other as "betrayals" -never did, never thought of it that way at all. I guess I just started, because some ppl labeled Sansa's behavior as "betrayal" here and I just think if we do that we also have to judge other family member's behavior just as harshly and also include age, experience and knowledge (about possible outcome) into the equation- that's all.

If we call Sansa's behavior betrayal. I personally think it is fair at least to call Robb's behavior betrayal as well. And even Ned's imo. But I gotta admit, that I would need a bit of time to back up my opinion here properly. Got to do some rereading, find the right quotes. I just got a very different impression, than you when it comes to Ned having bad feelings about Joff and getting warning signs. And it all might also have to do with the fact, that he is just for me personally always more responsible, because he is older wiser and the father. Again parents are responsible for their children's actions (it's a different thing, if she'd done something truly evil like murdering someone f.e.- I wouldn't apply the exact the some logic here. It depends on how severe the action is I guess. But even than I would partly blame the parents)

But I still stick to my opinion that Ned also did some very selfish things, because of his honor and did not put his family first. Even though some of it might have to do with the fact, that he didn't believe he would endanger them with his actions, the way he did. I just don't get why, that is an excuse for him but not for Sansa.

Why is his compassion an excuse and Sansa's self-centeredness and incapability so see the truth, because she is child (and a different one than Arya) is not? Maybe he shouldn't have been so compassionate, because he should have known KL is a nest of snakes and the Lannisters can look after themselves. He gives Cersei the benefit of the doubt and Sansa gives it to Joff. And Ned actually knows what kind of woman Cersei is. He has seen her act cruelly before.  

Maybe Ned is not there at the Trident, but he heard Robert complain about his son, maybe he should have thought of sitting down with Joff after that- pay attention to him, have a conversation with him. And imo the real warning sign was Joff threatening Arya with his sword and Ned must have known about that, why else would her direwolf would have attacked him. And Sansa must have told him as well otherwise he wouldn't have asked her to tell what happened before Robert. And later Arya also told Ned that he attacked the butcher' s boy- so that should have been warning sign enough for him imo. Maybe he shouldn't have written that of a child's play either. An adult should not need as many waring signs as child.

I just feel like you let Ned here of the hook a lot: he was compassionate, he didn't know of the warning signs, he couldn't refuse his King, while you don't grant Sansa the same lenient.

Sure, she should have seen the warning signs, but she couldn't  because of her age and her "fairytale world" her limited knowledge of the world in general. She "saw" them, but they didn't fit into her concept of everything -so she explained them away.

And I think Ned first and foremost didn't tell Cat about Jon to honor his promise to Lyanna and I've seen other ppl share that opinion.

 

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not judging her too harshly I don't think but the issue here is that Sansa saw the warning signs while Ned really had no way of knowing them. He didn't witness them & Sansa didn't tell him. 

She did and so did Arya. Even Robert complained about Joffrey. And he already knew what kind of person Cersei was. That should have been enough. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I feel like some people want to defend Sansa at all costs to the point they put argument in where it isn't. The poster you quoted specifically said Sansa was partly  to blame but your whole paragraph goes on the premise that this poster is solely blaming Sansa - in fact that's exactly what you say & accuse the poster of when it's very clearly written that they believe her to be partly to blame. 

I was talking about the poster not understanding her age or experience, by saying its unrealistic. The "solely" comment was directed at other arguments on the thread. Sorry if that wasnt clear. I have no problems saying Sansa made a serious error in judgement but I think its an understandable one for an 11 year old in such a high stakes game.

[Nagini's Neville]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For starters I'm not hating on Sansa at all. Just because they have differences does not mean they are not comparable. They were born to the same parents, raised in the same castle, in the same family, with the same "tutors" & the same parents. That doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same, obviously, but it most certainly means they are comparable. 

But we seldom ever read "But Sansa didn't turn out to be a mass-murder, even though she had the same parents", do we? And if we do it's usually in response to "Ayra is so loyal and would never be selfish and stupid like Sansa". In that regard there is never the comparison drawn between them.

Because most ppl empathize with Ayra and excuse more horrible crimes, while they don't do the same thing for Sansa.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

42 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

like we have a misunderstanding. What Sansa did was wrong. She should have listened to her father. Me listing Robb's and Ned's moments of "selfishness".  Is just in comparison. Because in the beginning your opinion was Sansa is the only one, who is "disloyal" and the rest of them are all "loyal" to one another. And I vehemently disagree with that. I just think very often Sansa gets judged way harsher. To the point were a lot of ppl make her solely responsible for everything bad, that ever happened to the Stark family. Without even looking at the "facts" of what the actual consequences of her actions are

I agree Ned & Robb made some selfish decisions that ultimately didn't turn out well for their family, I guess the disagreement arises because I call those things selfish or short-sighted, not disloyal. At any rate none of them are perfect & all have made mistakes. I suppose maybe I just have a different idea of what loyalty is than you - which is fine. 

I see the people saying Sansa was the demise of her family & blah blah blah. Of course that's ridiculous. She was not the demise of her family, she was a little girl who made a mistake. 

You are obviously a very staunch Sansa supporter, I am the same with Jon (another person who is victim of the blind hate on the forums) so I understand the frustration. 

51 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ned often gets off the hook, by "just being stupid and honorable". While Sansa is often painted as the evil selfish witch, who knowingly caused the demise of her whole family. (not saying that anyone did that here) I'm just saying that in general, this is just my personal impression, men's behavior in the series often gets excused by "the time" and "the position" the are in, while women's behavior isn't

I see it too & I apologize if that is the way I have come across because I don't think that at all. I like Sansa very much & if I'm being honest I have a tendency to let all the Starks 'off the hook' because I like them all & know none of them meant for what happened to happen. 

When I say I let them off the hook I mean, I can understand that Ned was short sighted, maybe selfish, & should have thought things through better - something I think can be said for any of them, but I disagree with anyone who says they are to blame for what happened to them. It was no one's fault Ned ended up beheaded besides Joffrey & whoever conspired with him on that, it was no one's fault Sansa was held captive & abused in KL other than the people who held her captive & abused her. Her going behind her dad's back does not warrant the things that followed, nor did it directly bring about those things. It was a perfect storm, where several peoples actions (some unbeknownst to them) came together to create the mess. 

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa very often is put "on trail" for the big mistake she made in KL (while not regarding the knowledge she had up until that moment of the world in general and that she didn't know what would happen. Basically, yeah, she made a big selfish mistake, but without any evil intent ever. Had someone told her her father would be killed she would have never done it.), while Robb not attempting to get his sisters back (while doing other stupid things. And getting sansa back might not have been stupid after all, because of marriage alliance and he said so himself later- but he did not even try to find a solution) gets hardly criticized at all - he gets more critique for betraying the Freys, than for that. And Robb had to know that it was likely, they hurt his sisters or that they could even kill them

I can agree with all of this. The only disagreement I had with the convo about Robb was that while it may have been selfish & stupid, it was definitely something to critique. I just didn't read it as disloyal. Not to say one thing is better or worse than the other, just that IMO they were different & that's why I said Sansa acted disloyally in those instances, while I don't believe the other Starks have. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

maybe it came across like I don't think Sansa did something wrong and Ned is basically all to blame for what she did. That was not my intention. Even though I will admit, that my opinion in general is that the parents are responsible for their children and their actions and if a child that age makes a mistake (and said child isn't a psychopath or anything similar) it is connected to the parenting and it's the parents responsibility first and foremost. Children are different, they need different parenting and it's their parents job to provide that.(That doesn't mean that I don't think the parents should make their kids take responsibility for their own actions though, but that's part of the parenting) That's also why I blame Cersei, Robert, Jaime a lot more than I blame Joffrey. So maybe we just have a fundamental disagreement here and just have to accept that 

Yeah that's how I took it so sorry for the confusion. I agree parenting plays a roll in a child's behavior & an adult should always hold more accountability than a child. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

we call Sansa's behavior betrayal. I personally think it is fair at least to call Robb's behavior betrayal as well. And even Ned's imo. But I gotta admit, that I would need a bit of time to back up my opinion here properly. Got to do some rereading, find the right quotes. I just got a very different impression, than you when it comes to Ned having bad feelings about Joff and getting warning signs. And it all might also have to do with the fact, that he is just for me personally always more responsible, because he is older wiser and the father. Again parents are responsible for their children's actions (it's a different thing, if she'd done something truly evil like murdering someone f.e.- I wouldn't apply the exact the some logic here. It depends on how severe the action is I guess. But even than I would partly blame the parents

Sure, but I wouldn't call Sansa's behavior betrayal. For me, & maybe I'm way off base here, but for betrayal to be the case I think there would need to be some intent of harm on Sansa's part & there was not. 

I haven't read it in a while either so maybe I'm misremembering or gathered a different impression than you from what I read - it wouldn't be the first time. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I still stick to my opinion that Ned also did some very selfish things, because of his honor and did not put his family first. Even though some of it might have to do with the fact, that he didn't believe he would endanger them with his actions, the way he did. I just don't get why, that is an excuse for him but not for Sansa

I think we really just got off on the wrong foot honestly because I didn't mean that those were justifications for Ned's actions or that it made them not selfish, only that I didn't feel they were disloyal. To me the difference is that Sansa knew she wasn't supposed to tell & did so in order to keep her father's plans from coming to fruition. I'm not saying it's better or worse than what Ned did, only that for me that makes it disloyal. The only thing I can think of that relates in regards to Ned is his not telling Robert about Cersei & her brood. He knew Robert should know but didn't tell him. He didn't for a nice reason - because he didn't want to burden his friend with that on his death bed but it was disloyal to his King & friend. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

is his compassion an excuse and Sansa's self-centeredness and incapability so see the truth, because she is child (and a different one than Arya) is not? Maybe he shouldn't have been so compassionate, because he should have known KL is a nest of snakes and the Lannisters can look after themselves. He gives Cersei the benefit of the doubt and Sansa gives it to Joff. And Ned actually knows what kind of woman Cersei is. He has seen her act cruelly before

I don't think either thing is an excuse, they are both just reasons. The difference between them to me is that I would call one short-sightedness & the other disloyalty. But we could call it self-centeredness also. 

Sorry I have to go I'll respond to the rest later. 

[Mordred]

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Even if you think she is dumb. She is still not responsible for Mycah, Lady, Nymeria. I disagree with that the typical child her age wouldn't go behind their parents back like that. (Because that's all that she thought it was.) From my experience of being a kid that age myself and from my friends and all the kids around me. Lot of kids actually did way worse. But maybe you grew up in a neighborhood with especially well behaved kids  

I feel sorry for the parents of children who would go behind their back over a boyfriend.  That is not betrayal.  I can understand a daughter sneaking out at night to spend time with her boyfriend and even have sex.  But to betray the family to an obviously untrustworthy person as Cersei was a very selfish act.  I don't think the average teenager is that selfish.  I don't know and have never been around a teenager who would risk her family's safety like that.  Pity the parents who do.  I'm not saying they don't exists but I would look on such a person with contempt should I ever meet one.  They exists but hopefully in small numbers.  In this day and age of first world kids who feel entitled and feel they shouldn't be held accountable for anything.  I would not be shocked.  I would hold a negative opinion of those who are like Sansa. 

[Nagini's Neville]

11 hours ago, Mordred said:

I would hold a negative opinion of those who are like Sansa. 

Thanks for your opinion about me then, I guess.

Maybe I should start talking about my opinion of ppl, who think its a lack of discipline and weak, if you suffer and want to help you family, when they are in danger, in war and murdered, I guess? Btw most men on the Wall are not leaders and Jon wasn't for the most time. 

But I don't want to bring the conversation to that level