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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?


Greywater-Watch

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. Her responsibility only goes as far as knowing that Arya, the household and she were meant to leave KL. She wanted to stop that by going to a woman she knew was powerful, not afraid of using it, and not liking Arya or her father, not just to prevent herself from leaving but everyone else. Which is indeed selifhs, entitled, self-serving and disloyal.

Thank you for your detailed opinion! Hopefully you aren't to harsh on your little Sansas at school- I kinda fear for them.

Could you please provide some quotes, that she would know her whole household would have to stay?

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Just now, Mystical said:

So basically...kids will be kids. Because you just perfectly described them. How many children today would throw their family under the bus for a bad ass game console or the best cell phone?

Sounds like "boys will be boys".

I don't think as low of kids as you do apparently. Most wouldn't.

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you for your detailed opinion! Hopefully you aren't to harsh on your little Sansas at school- I kinda fear for them.

Could you please provide some quotes, that she would know her whole household would have to stay?

Wow... no need to go personal. We're done.

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2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So basically...kids will be kids. Because you just perfectly described them. How many children today would throw their family under the bus for a bad ass game console or the best cell phone?

You forget "Arya wouldn't do that" and also @sweetsunray is a teacher, so they know Sansa is extraordinary "selifhs, entitled, self-serving and disloyal"

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You forget "Arya wouldn't do that" and also @sweetsunray is a teacher, so they know Sansa is extraordinary "selifhs, entitled, self-serving and disloyal"

I never wrote"extraordinary", and I never implied it. More straw men. Nor did I ever say all teens are Sansas, or all are selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal.

For me book 1 Sansa is a selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal brat. It's also a phase she grew out of both short-term and long term. Nor did she ever deserve what befell her. I love how George wrote her growth and I root for her. But Sansa's still a brat in book 1. She needs to be to grow out of it.

I don't think all hormonal changes to teen brains make them automatically selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal. It does hamper their ability to see the bigger picture, makes them focus on short-term gain, and some (not all) tend to deny responsibility and put blame someplace else.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sounds like "boys will be boys".

I don't think as low of kids as you do apparently. Most wouldn't.

I was obviously being hyperbolic. The point is that children are selfish, some more than others and for different reasons. Sansa is no different than her other siblings in that regard. They are all selfish/spoiled/entitled in their own way, for their own reasons. But Sansa is the one that always gets singled out as 'the worst offender' which is just eye-rollingly biased IMO.

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5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I was obviously being hyperbolic. The point is that children are selfish, some more than others and for different reasons. Sansa is no different than her other siblings in that regard. They are all selfish/spoiled/entitled in their own way, for their own reasons. But Sansa is the one that always gets singled out as 'the worst offender' which is just eye-rollingly biased IMO.

I disagree with your general statement that children are selfish, unless you wish to broaden "selfishness" so much that wanting a roof above your head, food in your mouth and clothes on your back is selfish.

I only use seflishness and entitlement as words when it comes to people (adults and children) who feel they deserve or expect to be treated as special at the direct cost of those around them, while shrugging at injustice and cruelty to others as long as it does not hamper them.

And no, imo most children, teens and adults are not that entitled or selfish.

Sansa gets singled out as the 'worst offender [of the Starks]' because she was written to be the worst offender of the Starks in the first book. George confirmed he started out writing Sansa as the one who would betray her family for her own ambitions and desires, only to then learn she had picked the wrong side for the wrong reasons, coming to regret it. Why deny what the author himself admitted is supposed to be the result?

Her response to Mycah's fate is one that upsets me greatly. Her lack of empathy for weeping Jeyne Poole is disturbing. I recognize that she grows more empathic, after her harsh wake-up call.  I wouldn't like her, if she hadn't. It's clearly but a phase, but to me it remains a disturbing phase whenever I reread it.

And yes, at times Bran is also a spoiled brat. He's clearly acting out and wants to be annoying at the start of aCoK. Even if he has reasons, those first few chapters of Bran in aCoK remain an annoying read.

However, when it comes to 'the worst offender' across all books it is imo Tyrion. I only like him on the boat with Jon Connington. 

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44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I never wrote"extraordinary", and I never implied it. More straw men.

Yeah, sorry! I was being ironic, exaggerating, you know? I know you didn't write that! Guess I'm a bit tired already. And I do apologize for getting personal though! I didn't think you would take that so badly- so my apologies! 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you so much for this wonderful post!

I do want to respond to it in detail. I just don't really have to much time rn, but I'll do it as soon as I have some. Haha that's so funny he was also not "my Edward". I feel like having experienced so many adaptation from all the young adult books I've read as a teenager and all those different stories always turning out to be basically the exact same movie(hollywood formula), has really shaped my expectations/interests when it comes to Book to movie/series adaptations :laugh: And so I did not even really try to attempt to watch GOT (even though I watched bits and pieces and the big events like RW, BotB, Gregor vs.the red viper some of Sansa's and Arya's scenes-because all of those viewing-parties lol). Weirdly enough everyone being so upset has rewaken my interest in rereading the series :) 

I would so love to have some discussions about Jon, I'm really getting into his character this time around. What I personally really don't understand is, that he gets more hate than Robb. Not that Robb should get soo much hate, but I agree the only ever questionable thing he did was the babies. In general I have a really hard time relating to all of the male characters, while it's really easy to relate to mostly all of the female characters- even if I don't like them, I still mostly understand their logic and can empathize with them. While I really have a hard time with the male characters (I guess Bran, I can relate to as well a lot and I love Pod to pieces, but I don't know what he is thinking lol) Is it easy for you to relate to the male characters? tbh that has never happened to me before to this extent in a book series. But they are all just so uhm... hyper-masculine? lol 

So much more to talk about, but I don't have time.. agh!  

Also wow, you are a really young mom! I'm sure you have such a different/richer perspective reading ASOIAF, if you have kids! And how lucky to have a son and a daughter :)! At least I imagine that to be great :) 

 

I agree with you about adaptations of the stories into movies. The books are always, always better but the-one-who-must-not-be-named really took the cake. It was bad. 

For some reason or another some people on the forum think that being loyal to your position (Lord/Lady etc) is much more important than being loyal to your family. So Robb not getting back his sisters is no big deal to them but Jon doing anything that might be construed as for Arya's sake is the ultimate betrayal & he should hang for it. 

I have a hard time with the male characters that we don't have a POV for - like Robb for instance, I just plain don't understand why he did some of the things he did. I think when we have their POV & I can read their inner thoughts it's easier for me to relate to them because even if I disagree with their reasons, I at least know them. Also, them being hyper-masculine makes it hard. Women & men, generally, just think different. I can even relate to Cersei & feel for her in a way because I understand the fierceness & the lengths I would go to to protect my children. She is a lunatic of course but I can't imagine having to watch my son choke to death before my eyes, even if he was a little twat. 

I am kind of a young mom :) I had my first at 19. Children are great IMO, it's amazing to watch these little personalities grow & shape into semi-adults. I have 3 total. 2 sons, 1 daughter, my daughter is in the middle. Everyone always says "aw poor girl with 2 boys!" but believe me she gives them a run for their money! 

It was very nice chatting with you & hope to talk again soon. 

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5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Idk why but on my screen it says you quoted Nagini's Neville saying that. 

Yeah, just checked, and it does for me too. I think it may be b/c I highlighted the text from a reply Nagini’s Neville posted to you instead of quoting from your original post. If that makes sense? 

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13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh, come on I meant that was mostly in a teasing way! But I do apologize, if you took it that seriously. That wasn't my intention! I'll guard my tongue from now on - I promise! 

So you won't provide me provide me with those quotes then, I guess?

 

An apology should not depend on me being sensitive. If the apology comes with a statement that I'm taking things "that" serious, I guess I prefer the jibe than the apology.

You know there are no quotes stating that explicitly. It's a conclusion based on the fact that she sought out Cersei over Joffrey, while romanticising Joffrey but not Cersei after Lady's death, combined with the fact that she's not upset about the fighting in the yard, and only of Septa Mordan's head on a spike, nor ever wondering much "what happened to Arya?", and her statement earlier before leaving to tell Cersei that it's not fair that Arya's getting what she wants when she "deserves" no such thing for Arya's the wicked one. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, just checked, and it does for me too. I think it may be b/c I highlighted the text from a reply Nagini’s Neville posted to you instead of quoting from your original post. If that makes sense? 

Yep makes sense. That's probably what happened. :)

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What strikes me as very odd though is that she went to Cersei for it. A chapter earlier, Sansa thinks of Cersei in a negative way for wanting Lady killed. She blamed a lot of people for Lady's death: Arya foremostly for the Mycah incident and being "wicked", her father for holding the knife, Robert for going along with Cersei's demand, but also Cersei. I can see her trying to get to Joffrey and tell him. He's the one she's in love with and understandably excuses for everything. But Cersei? And yet, it was Cersei she sought out. That makes it even a more deliberate choice. Of the four people she was angry with over the death of Lady, she chose the one person who demanded Lady to be killed to trust with her father's secret plans.

Sansa actually gives us the reason she goes to Cersei though. She knows only the King or Queen can make her father stay & the King is loud & scares her. I'm paraphrasing, obviously but that is it in a nut shell. I guess I don't find it that odd. 

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14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

An apology should not depend on me being sensitive. If the apology comes with a statement that I'm taking things "that" serious, I guess I prefer the jibe than the apology.

You know there are no quotes stating that explicitly. It's a conclusion based on the fact that she sought out Cersei over Joffrey, while romanticising Joffrey but not Cersei after Lady's death, combined with the fact that she's not upset about the fighting in the yard, and only of Septa Mordan's head on a spike, nor ever wondering much "what happened to Arya?", and her statement earlier before leaving to tell Cersei that it's not fair that Arya's getting what she wants when she "deserves" no such thing for Arya's the wicked one. 

Well, I apologize for my apology than, I guess? 

No I don't know that, because I don't know Sansa's chapters by heart. Also didn't know anymore, that she wanted the queen to convince the king before someone pointed it out. Imo she did go to Cersei, because she was a adult, she had more power, she would get the job done better. Sansa had a goal after all.

 

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13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sansa actually gives us the reason she goes to Cersei though. She knows only the King or Queen can make her father stay & the King is loud & scares her. I'm paraphrasing, obviously but that is it in a nut shell. I guess I don't find it that odd. 

Thanks, here's the quote

 
Quote

 

"How well I know that, child," Cersei said, her voice so kind and sweet. "Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"
"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

 

 
So, yes, she sought out an authority who would overrule her father. She sought out the powerful one. And she also suspects Robert would not listen to her, but send her back to her father [because they're friends, whereas Cersei was not].
 
I don't find it "odd" if her goal was to seek someone with authority over her father. It's only odd if you see it from the "naive not knowing what she's about" picture of Sansa.
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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

So, yes, she sought out an authority who would overrule her father. She sought out the powerful one. And she also suspects Robert would not listen to her, but send her back to her father [because they're friends, whereas Cersei was not].

Sure I don't think anyone is disagreeing, that she had a plan and she wanted it to work. Why do it in the first place, if she wanted to only do it half-heartedly.

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11 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I tend to disagree. There has been a conversation between Tyrion and Cersei (I believe in book 2) when Tyrion returned to KL being acting Hand of the King named by Tywin. There Cersei confesses to Tyrion, that Sansa's information on Ned's plans was crucial to her to act fast. Cersei said something like "It was a close thing anyway and without Sansa…..". That is also how Tyrion learned about Sansa's betrayal (I think he called it like that). And Tyrion's thoughts go bakc to Sansa's betrayal later when he is married to Sansa (I do not recall the precise book or phrase).

As far as Cersei's and Tyrion's thoughts go, I remember it that way too. But there's no real support for that version of events in the actual facts we're given. (I'll have a go at showing that, later.)

Tyrion I expect only knows what Cersei told him. And Cersei is a very instinctive and profound liar - Tyrion says that she is never so naturally outraged as when the accusation against her is in fact true.

I think it's part of the bigger truth/lies theme; it's an example of how facts get twisted into a narrative which becomes the new 'truth'. Sansa as the great betrayer of her family is a much more powerful narrative than Sansa who didn't make any difference. It's the same as Littlefinger's insight that Shireen being the bastard daughter of Patchface is a more powerful narrative than Shireen just being the daughter of Stannis.

I suggest both Cersei and Tyrion find it easy and pleasant to believe Sansa shares responsibility for her father's tragedy. Much sweeter to think of Sansa's sins than their own.

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47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I never wrote"extraordinary", and I never implied it. More straw men. Nor did I ever say all teens are Sansas, or all are selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal.

For me book 1 Sansa is a selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal brat. It's also a phase she grew out of both short-term and long term. Nor did she ever deserve what befell her. I love how George wrote her growth and I root for her. But Sansa's still a brat in book 1. She needs to be to grow out of it.

I don't think all hormonal changes to teen brains make them automatically selfish, entitled, self-serving and disloyal. It does hamper their ability to see the bigger picture, makes them focus on short-term gain, and some (not all) tend to deny responsibility and put blame someplace else.

Okay, that's your opinion and doesn't seem like I'll be able to change that. But even then, that's not all she is in book 1, even then she has moments of compassion and empathy.  

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