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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?


Greywater-Watch

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12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I call someone an empath when they have empathy for almost anybody, far outside their acquaintance circle, and without having to go through a similar hardship. Empaths don't need to go through an ordeal of being beaten, or being hungry, nor do they require a common enemy to empathize with someone else's pain.

But who do you consider an empath in asoiaf?

And why do you think she didn't tell her father of the Hound (the death thread?)That wa still in her selfish phase. She didn't have anything in common with him at all at the time.

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37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Cersei is certified insane. She's an absolute villain. But her POV is only in two books, and so over the top it makes for twisted comedy. Strangely enough, I prefer reading Cersei's dillusional self-proclaimed genius over Tyrion's self-pity-fests, whining for Shae, and petty-got-what-she-deserved thoughts of smallfolk who never really had any power.

I actually found a fanfic where the Starks are reading the books between the events of Bran I in AGOT, and they like the Tyrion chapters... so far. They’re at Jon III right now, Sansa’s perspective on Joffrey and Cersei is pretty much shot by Chapter 9, and everyone hates Viserys. And this is a simplification.

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But who do you consider an empath in asoiaf?

And why do you think she didn't tell her father of the Hound (the death thread?)That wa still in her selfish phase. She didn't have anything in common with him at all at the time.

Arya's a natural empath.

Sansa's response to the Hound's story is the sole exception in aGoT. His heartfelt story affects her immensely, making her his supporter the next day in the Tourney. The Mountain's behavior to Loras, her favourite at the tourney, seals it imo. I don't think it's the death threat that makes her keep her promise not to tell imo. It's the actual intimacy of the moment that makes her keep it a secret.

I explored this scene in an essay on Sansa's sexual maturation.

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya's a natural empath.

Sansa's response to the Hound's story is the sole exception in aGoT. His heartfelt story affects her immensely, making her his supporter the next day in the Tourney. The Mountain's behavior to Loras, her favourite at the tourney, seals it imo. I don't think it's the death threat that makes her keep her promise not to tell imo. It's the actual intimacy of the moment that makes her keep it a secret.

I explored this scene in an essay on Sansa's sexual maturation.

I disagree. I think it is easier to be an empath, if you had your fair shares of trials and obstacles in life already.(Sansa gets them later) And Arya had those, because all her life she had been a misfit and that is painful and difficult for her. She identifies with Mycah, because he is like her- not a misfit, but in other ways. And of course she feels compassion for him and blames herself after his death, because it is her friend, but we don't know, if she had acted differently from Sansa, it had been the other way around- one of Sansa's friends, that she didn't really know herself. So we can't compare Arya's and Sansa's reaction to Mycahs death, because they don't have the same relationship to him. For Sansa it's similar to when the squire dies. I'm not saying she shouldn't have felt compassion for Mycah, because she definitely should have!

And I actually do think she feels subconsciously very guilty for his death. Why else would she have felt inclined to change her memory of what really happened into "Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.” She knows very well, it's not true deep down. But pretending he did actually attack the prince helps ease the guilt. And I know you do probably criticize her strongly for precisely that. But at least it is an indication for there being guilt at all and where there is guilt there also must be empathy in this case. And what good does it do Mycah anyway to feel guilty, he is already dead and we should leave the guilt where it belongs imo- at least there Ned had a point- with "the Hound and the cruel woman he serves" +Bobby B. GRRM has written Sansa very subtle and this subconscious thing happens a couple of o times with her. I think it is Sansa's way of taking control of her life. And that is good because after book 1 she has so little of that anymore. It helps her stay alive.

I think Sansa didn't ask her father for help after Sandor acted violently towards her (scared her and physically forced her to look at him, while she was all alone with him) and later threatened to kill her, because his story made her feel enormous amounts of empathy for him. Which for me is the defining sign, that she is indeed capable of incredible amounts of empathy and definitely more than the next person and average girl her age. It might not always show, but this scene shows that the potential is there. And I cannot see Arya reacting the same way in the same situation. By keeping his secret, but also keeping a secret, that he threatened her from her father, she puts him and his well-being before her own safety. And what else is that other than pure selflessness? 

Do you still consider Arya is an empath, when she is killing all those ppl? 

I think Sansa and Arya are both empathetic, but in different ways. And Arya had a huge head start, because her life up until the start of AGOT had always been much more difficult, than Sansa's. And that makes you more empathetic and aware of everything going on around you. You question the world more in general, when you just don't fit into the box, that everyone insists on, you have to be in.

If you just know with such certainty that this is not the box you are supposed to be in, what else could be wrong about the world? You starting to trust yourself and your instincts more, because of it, after maybe initial problems of self-doubts etc.

Arya has a very strong sense of justice and also she trusts her own intuition and opinions more. That is something that Sansa lacks, she is very much a ppl pleaser. Which tbh also sucks and is the story of a lot of young girls.

But they both are empathetic imo, even though I tend to regard as Sansa the empath of the Starks (and I actually think Jon is very empathetic as well), because tbh I really can't  really remember a moment, in which Arya had been especially empathetic after the Mycah incident. For the most part I just remember her being really vengeful (for which I don't blame her at all)

But she certainly doesn't empathize with Sandor or asks him about Sansa, even though he mentions her a lot. And she doesn't empathize with the girl with the doll. Imo having a strong sense of justice just isn't the same thing as empathy. Imo it is just as hard for her to empathize with ppl, who are not like her or she thinks are stupid.

So I guess my conclusion is that imo neither Sansa nor Arya fit your definition of a natural empath.

 

And now I'm gonna read you essay- the title suggests, that we might have very different interpretations of that scene.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya's a natural empath.

Sansa's response to the Hound's story is the sole exception in aGoT. His heartfelt story affects her immensely, making her his supporter the next day in the Tourney. The Mountain's behavior to Loras, her favourite at the tourney, seals it imo. I don't think it's the death threat that makes her keep her promise not to tell imo. It's the actual intimacy of the moment that makes her keep it a secret.

I explored this scene in an essay on Sansa's sexual maturation.

I don't know- there is just so much wrong with that scene imo.

First and foremost Sansa's courtesies are not just "empty words" for her, those are her values, sure sometimes she uses them as her armor as well, later she has to lie a lot. But when she tells herself "A true lady would not notice his face,". That is not just her telling herself "pretend like you do not notice his face". It is her reminding herself to be a good person a true fair maiden the counterpart to the true knight. If the true knight has certain values, the true fair maiden has them as well and she wants to live by them. 

Basically "fake it till you make it". "You do notice his face, so try harder until you don't."  The Hound does recognize that at the end of the conversation as well- that she is the real deal- that she is not superficial and just "pretending", but takes him seriously and truly empathizes with him (even though he surely doesn't deserve; at least not from her) His opinion of her gets so high, that this leads him to look out for her.

"So, there is something going on between them that prevents her from seeing the situation as mere business putting them together"

I don't see that at all. I see her as just being scared of him and trying to be polite to ease the tension. Than the Hound does his usual assaultive, predatory thing, that he can only do with her, because she is so compassionate and kind and also because she is a child and all alone with him and scared of him. He couldn't have done this to an adult woman. And this is also partly why he likes her so much, because he can just be the way he is around her and she'll treat him kindly -while no one else would give him kindness for his bs- but that doesn't mean Sansa should be exposed to it. 

This dynamic "works", because she treats him so kindly and not because he just doesn't allow her to be "false". Because she is actually not false, she just keeps her private stuff for herself like normal ppl do and he has no right be so assaultive and to demand from her "to be real" and so intimate with him. Especially when he does it in such a violent way. He usually always just "takes" the intimacy, with a view exceptions.

And he can only get away with this behavior, because despite everything she is able to see his complexity, consider his past and see the goodness in him. But this is an achievement on her part (and a sign of great empathy, most girls and women would not be up for this) not his. And if Sansa would have been a different girl. This all could have turned out way worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sansa running her mouth doesn't just prevent her and Arya from escaping Kings Landing safely, it also prevents Ned from contacting and possibly making common cause with Stannis, the Galley he contracted to take the girls north was also supposed to deliver a letter declaring Neds support for Stannis. 

There are definitely ripple effects of her actions besides just how they effect her.

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but we don't know, if she had acted differently from Sansa, it had been the other way around- one of Sansa's friends, that she didn't really know herself.

Me calling Arya an empath is not because of her response to Mycah. We know in aCoK that she empathizes with the innkeep's daughter who was raped by men of the Mountain. She learns of this at Harrenhal, through the mouth of one of the perpetrators. She hasn't "experienced" rape herself. Doesn't know what this girl even looks like. She's an unnamed girl in a story.

There are hardened criminals in a cage: murderers and rapists. And yet, she hands them something to drink when they ask for it. Later, she sees dying men in bird cages. Men she knows are in there for horrible offenses. Again she gives them water. Only those who are cruel and sadistic, she chooses not to empathize with.

We do know that Mycah is not the sole person she hangs out with. She hangs out with a lot of people of the castle according to Sansa. And yes, that's because partly because she's a misfit. But also because she's interested in people in general: she likes to listen to everyone her father invites at the dais to talk to, curious to hear what they have to say, with a genuine interest in them. And from what her siblings have to say about her, Arya has always been this way. Being an outcast is not automatic cause for being an empath. If it was, then some of those mass-shootings would never happen. However, a lot of empaths tend to be outcasts for a while, because they don't tend to be persuaded to group-think or group-identity. They naturally seek connection with other children, regardless of status and looks. Meanwhile clicques amongst children are formed on the "we're better" identification process, and one of the understood non-spoken rules in a clique is to not break the circle and play with outsiders. An empath will do so, and hence will end up being rejected by the clique. 

So, yes, from those examples we do know Arya would not have acted differently if it had been Sansa's friends, even those she didn't get along with, or hardly knew. We even see a degree of difference in empathy for animals. Arya sticks up for Lady as much as Sansa, but Sansa does not stick up for Nymeria. Similarly, Arya is a natural horserider, but Sansa isn't. The connection with a horse is fairly intuitive, even on trained horses. It requires empathy with the horse to get it to ride optimally. That horses respond well to empathy is known, for it's why they're used for therapy with people who have issues expressing their innate empathy.  

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I actually do think she feels subconsciously very guilty for his death. Why else would she have felt inclined to change her memory of what really happened into "Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

Why else? Because she exonerated the prince, is in love with him and does not want to recognize that Joffrey was at fault.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I cannot see Arya reacting the same way in the same situation.

You cannot? Hmmm, a certain speech of Sandor saying he should have raped Sansa comes to mind. Arya could not kill him.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Do you still consider Arya is an empath, when she is killing all those ppl? 

Yes. For she remains empathic with almost anybody. It are only those she knows to have been cruel and unempathic to others systematically (the sadists, the psychopaths, the abusers) that she kills. Meanwhile, even in Braavos she remains empathic with almost anybody else she encounters.

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16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As to the OP: I agree that Sansa sometimes get blamed for too much. Sansa's tattle telling wasn't what caused Cersei to act against Ned. She was going to do that anyway. Ned himself alerted Cersei to a potential declaration against Joffrey. And Cersei would have made a move to secure Sansa and Arya at some point during the day too. However, Sansa made it very easy for Cersei to capture Sansa and have her foremost important hostage. Sansa's actions also likely shut the small window of time Arya and some of the household would have had in getting to the ship (based on George's own words on this). Ned's letter to Stannis never made it Dragonstone either, which would have likely helped to secure an alliance between Stannis and Robb, before he rode off to war and into the Riverlands.

Is it possible that you confound the TV show and the books in this case? If I remember the books correctly, Ned's letter reached Stannis. Stannis mentions this later in the books at Dragonstone, when he decides to write more letters declaring himself King and naming Joffrey a bastard, which he orders Davos to spread.

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17 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Is it possible that you confound the TV show and the books in this case? If I remember the books correctly, Ned's letter reached Stannis. Stannis mentions this later in the books at Dragonstone, when he decides to write more letters declaring himself King and naming Joffrey a bastard, which he orders Davos to spread.

AGoT, Sansa IV

"The queen picked up a letter. The paper was torn and stiff with dried blood, but the broken seal was her father's, the direwolf stamped in pale wax. "We found this on the captain of your household guard, Sansa. It is a letter to my late husband's brother Stannis, inviting him to take the crown."

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14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

As far as Cersei's and Tyrion's thoughts go, I remember it that way too. But there's no real support for that version of events in the actual facts we're given. (I'll have a go at showing that, later.)

Tyrion I expect only knows what Cersei told him. And Cersei is a very instinctive and profound liar - Tyrion says that she is never so naturally outraged as when the accusation against her is in fact true.

I think it's part of the bigger truth/lies theme; it's an example of how facts get twisted into a narrative which becomes the new 'truth'. Sansa as the great betrayer of her family is a much more powerful narrative than Sansa who didn't make any difference. It's the same as Littlefinger's insight that Shireen being the bastard daughter of Patchface is a more powerful narrative than Shireen just being the daughter of Stannis.

I suggest both Cersei and Tyrion find it easy and pleasant to believe Sansa shares responsibility for her father's tragedy. Much sweeter to think of Sansa's sins than their own.

As this is an important point to me, I checked the Quote (A Clash of Kings, 1st Tyrion chapter):

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close Thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans…"

The quote does not really exclude your assumption that Cersei didn't tell the truth to Tyrion at this moment, I know. In my opinion she told the truth and Sansa's information was crucial to Cersei's success in KL in these crucial hours just after Robert's death.

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Me calling Arya an empath is not because of her response to Mycah. We know in aCoK that she empathizes with the innkeep's daughter who was raped by men of the Mountain. She learns of this at Harrenhal, through the mouth of one of the perpetrators. She hasn't "experienced" rape herself. Doesn't know what this girl even looks like. She's an unnamed girl in a story.

But she had been threatened with rape a lot as well already herself up until this point. And I feel like this has especially to do with her black and white strong sense of justice and also her strong need for revenge, when something unjust has happens. Not to say that she isn't also empathetic towards the girl. 

In AGOT Sansa is empathetic towards the squire, who gets killed (and even questions herself, why she doesn't get upset even more) and the Hound, to a point were she endangers herself to keep his secret. She has never participated in a tourney or has been in any battle situation and she definitely never has been tortured by a sibling before. And she even applies Sandor's NOT her own experiences, when she is then the next day afraid for Loras.

 

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29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

AGoT, Sansa IV

"The queen picked up a letter. The paper was torn and stiff with dried blood, but the broken seal was her father's, the direwolf stamped in pale wax. "We found this on the captain of your household guard, Sansa. It is a letter to my late husband's brother Stannis, inviting him to take the crown."

Ok, thanks, so I was wrong. It was in the TV show that Stannis received Ned's letter, not in the books.

Thanks for the clarification!

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2 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Ok, thanks, so I was wrong. It was in the TV show that Stannis received Ned's letter, not in the books.

Thanks for the clarification!

Cersei does lie to Tyrion about the letter though... well, maybe not lie exactly, but she phrases it in a way that suggests the letter was received by Stannis. But we know it wasn’t. I don’t remember how the abomination handled this at all - nor should that be discussed here anyway. :)

 

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6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We do know that Mycah is not the sole person she hangs out with. She hangs out with a lot of people of the castle according to Sansa. And yes, that's because partly because she's a misfit. But also because she's interested in people in general: she likes to listen to everyone her father invites at the dais to talk to, curious to hear what they have to say, with a genuine interest in them. And from what her siblings have to say about her, Arya has always been this way. Being an outcast is not automatic cause for being an empath. If it was, then some of those mass-shootings would never happen. However, a lot of empaths tend to be outcasts for a while, because they don't tend to be persuaded to group-think or group-identity. They naturally seek connection with other children, regardless of status and looks. Meanwhile clicques amongst children are formed on the "we're better" identification process, and one of the understood non-spoken rules in a clique is to not break the circle and play with outsiders. An empath will do so, and hence will end up being rejected by the clique. 

We don't know what was the hen and what the egg. Was she empathetic just by nature or did it help to be constantly be critizsed herself?

Sure some ppl are misfits and become criminals, other ppl are misfits and become empaths and develop a strong sense of justice. Both is possible. 

The same way, that Sansa stays empathetic even though she is being abused so horribly, even towards the ppl, who have been part of abusing her, are her enemies like Lancel and Tyrion. That is something that is difficult for Arya, because of her black and white sense of justice. Sansa doesn't turn spiteful and vengeful like Arya even after all of the injustices done to her.

And liking ppl does not mean being empathetic. Arya likes to be around the smallfolk, because they are like her, she identifies with them. When it comes to ppl, who are different to her, like her sister, it is difficult for her to empathize with them and she just calls her just stupid.

And Sansa also empathizes with the smallfolk, when she says something to Joffrey, so he doesn't ride the woman with the dead baby down.

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, yes, from those examples we do know Arya would not have acted differently if it had been Sansa's friends, even those she didn't get along with, or hardly knew. We even see a degree of difference in empathy for animals. Arya sticks up for Lady as much as Sansa, but Sansa does not stick up for Nymeria. Similarly, Arya is a natural horserider, but Sansa isn't. The connection with a horse is fairly intuitive, even on trained horses. It requires empathy with the horse to get it to ride optimally. That horses respond well to empathy is known, for it's why they're used for therapy with people who have issues expressing their innate empathy.  

We don't know that, because she doesn't empathize with Sansa either. She doesn't even ask the Hound about how she is doing, being with the ppl, that have murdered her father, while she escaped.

And not liking to ride, maybe also just has something to do with just not liking to ride, you know, as in not liking sports ? Believe me, you don't have to be an empath to ride horses, been round enough riders to know that and have ridden myself. There are enough ppl, who like riding, but do not even like horses. And I think, it's pretty clear Arya likes movement more than Sansa in general. 

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You cannot? Hmmm, a certain speech of Sandor saying he should have raped Sansa comes to mind. Arya could not kill him.

Arya's black and white sense of justice definitely got questioned, while being with the Hound.

When he was laying there ready to die, she considered killing him. She didn't do it at once, because suddenly it had become more difficult, because she didn't see him as black anymore as she once had. She had experienced some of his good sides. she had seen it withe her own eyes, she had evidence for that.

But when he started listing all his crimes and she noticed how badly he wanted and needed her to give him mercy, she didn't give it to him and that was revenge on her part.

While Sansa's and the Hound's situation is an entirely different one. She did not know of the good things he was capable of, she had not seen his good side yet, instead she just knows him as a vicious child murderer and he had been very threatening and abusive towards her and still she doesn't tell her father about his thread and his abusive behavior and endangers herself to not get him into trouble.

Sansa is capable to empathize with ppl, who have done a lot of horrible things, and acknowledges their complexity,  while Arya's black and white sense of justice doesn't allow for that. Even though that black and white justice later gets questions through the Hound, but not without having evidence for his good deeds.

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6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Similarly, Arya is a natural horserider, but Sansa isn't. The connection with a horse is fairly intuitive, even on trained horses. It requires empathy with the horse to get it to ride optimally. That horses respond well to empathy is known, for it's why they're used for therapy with people who have issues expressing their innate empathy.  

Horses are used in therapy sometimes;  some people do find they can practise empathy by working with horses (I remember a scheme with schoolchildren working with free running horses in a ring. Seemed very successful). But I agree the very best riders go way beyond that.

Arya is a natural rider like Lyanna and Brandon (funny that it goes with wolf blood). Sansa is no centaur, but don't be fooled, she rides to a very high standard. She can keep pace with wild riders like Joffrey, and skilled riders like Margaery - all on high-bred horses going at full speed across country. And for the procession, Sansa is allocated a courser, a powerful hunting horse capable of carrying the Hound. She's good.

Does she want to ride, that's the question.

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1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

As this is an important point to me, I checked the Quote (A Clash of Kings, 1st Tyrion chapter):

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close Thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans…"

The quote does not really exclude your assumption that Cersei didn't tell the truth to Tyrion at this moment, I know. In my opinion she told the truth and Sansa's information was crucial to Cersei's success in KL in these crucial hours just after Robert's death.

Thanks for the quote.

It's an important point for me also - but I come at the books from a high fantasy viewpoint, so I probably have less expectation that characters will act in a strictly realistic way. I have had a go at the facts however:

Ok, the case for Sansa making no difference to the success of the coup.

She didn't know anything about 'her father's plans'. Consistently we are shown that Ned does not have deep conversations with Sansa, that he does not explain his actions, that he wants her kept away from important man-stuff like king's justice and court hearings. Therefore, we can take as a fact that he didn't share his plans to make Stannis king. Didn't share his secret meetings with Renly and Littlefinger and Cersei. Didn't share the orders to his soldiers. Anything.

Cersei has complete information already. The walls of the Red Keep have ears, and she has her own spies. And there is no sign that Ned and his household have learned much about information security (apart from protecting Sansa's innocence, which is an irony). There will be leaks.

Plus information Cersei was given as a gift. Ned straight out told her that he was going to expose and banish Joffrey - on its own, that's enough information to trigger a coup against his regency. The rest of his planning was with Littlefinger, who took it straight away to Cersei.

And then there's Varys, who says straight out that he is a weak man who must back the winning side. So - Renly and Littlefinger both correctly judged that Ned was dancing on thin ice, there's no reason Varys would think differently, and in hindsight, he did not give Ned the support he might have. Therefore, Varys was also on Cersei's side; that's game over in the information wars.

There was no time. Once Robert dies, Ned and Cersei are in a race to Iron Throne. If Cersei doesn't act immediately, Ned will be made regent. It will be him in the seat of power, accusing her of treason, instead of the other way about. The people, soldiers and kingsguard may agree with him. The Gold Cloaks may just pocket their bribes and not fight for Cersei. She has to act immediately.

There was just one hour between the Stark breakfast and Robert's death. Sansa has to first brush her hair (of course) and gain an audience with Cersei. And then pour her heart out, about how much she loves Joffrey, and what a good queen she'd make, and children proud as lions etc etc. That leaves Cersei somewhere between half an hour and ten minutes to pick out crucial new information and act on it.

So what was it, this crucial new information? Information that aided Cersei in her race to the top (it was a close thing)?

I tell you, it doesn't exist.


Part 2: the case for Sansa making no difference to the girls' escape....
(work in progress)

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11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Horses are used in therapy sometimes;  some people find they can practise empathy by working with horses. But I agree the very best riders go way beyond that.

In my experience I kinda disagree. The very best riders very often aren't good to their horses at all. Sure they might have a "connection" with their horse, but you can also just call it training and knowing them really well. In competitive horseback riding a lot of stuff happens that borders on animal abuse. So you don't even have to be so empathetic towards you horse at all to be a very good rider. It has a lot more to do with your overall athleticism and just knowing, what to do and what not to do towards you horse, it is a sport after all.

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