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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?


Greywater-Watch

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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I especially like the above comment :bowdown::wub:

Definitely. And yeah, it’s an old interview. If we want Martin’s more recent take on the character we have to look at the interview where he says he hopes someone reading the books now becomes a leader, senator, president and models themselves on Jon. :wub:

ps: now let’s wait for the usual suspects to do their thing! :laugh:

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So in the end, it's still all Ned's own fault to me.

Yeah, I agree. I also think Ned is to blame for Lady’s death. Obviously not as much as Cersei and Robert, but a hell of a lot more than Sansa. 

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23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Definitely. And yeah, it’s an old interview. If we want Martin’s more recent take on the character we have to look at the interview where he says he hopes someone reading the books now becomes a leader, senator, president and models themselves on Jon. :wub:

ps: now let’s wait for the usual suspects to do their thing! :laugh:

Yeah I remember that recent quote from Martin. But as you said nothing will convince those few that will continue to see Jon as evuul.  

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But she had been threatened with rape a lot as well already herself up until this point. And I feel like this has especially to do with her black and white strong sense of justice and also her strong need for revenge, when something unjust has happens. Not to say that she isn't also empathetic towards the girl. 

In AGOT Sansa is empathetic towards the squire, who gets killed (and even questions herself, why she doesn't get upset even more) and the Hound, to a point were she endangers herself to keep his secret. She has never participated in a tourney or has been in any battle situation and she definitely never has been tortured by a sibling before. And she even applies Sandor's NOT her own experiences, when she is then the next day afraid for Loras.

 

I would not truly regard her thoughts about the dead Hugh of the Vale after being killed by the Mountain empathic.

Quote

Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

The above is NOT empathy whatsoever. It's a wholly cognitive thought process. We learn specifically that she watches with "fascination", that she cannot cry or has any feelings about it. She knows she ought to, but she cannot. She then "tells herself" that surely it would be different for men she knew since her childhood. The young knight is "nothing to her". And then she thinks "it's sad that no sungs will be sung for him".

I'm sorry, but I seriously question anyone's understanding of "empathy" if they consider the above "empathic".

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure some ppl are misfits and become criminals, other ppl are misfits and become empaths and develop a strong sense of justice. Both is possible.

You don't "become" an empath. You're born an empath. An empath never needs to learn "empathy". They do it automatically even as little children, way before the age that cognitive child development puts forward. What empaths usually need to learn is to not be empathic with everyone all the time. 

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

It sickening if some people genuinely believe that. Wishing domestic violence on a child is disturbing as hell. People need to see the difference between fiction and reality. 

 

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

With "eyes of the world" you mean the reader or the World in Westeros?

I most definitely mean the World of Westeros. Thanks to everyone who queried this; I will amend the post.

51 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

In that case I have my doubts. As neither Cersei nor Tyrion ever mention Sansa's "treason" as justification for their rude Treatment versus Sansa. And I think Cersei didn't need any justification for torturing people.

It's an assumption of mine, that's all. But I really think it could and should be true.

'Traitor blood' is a common enough term; the Small Council use it freely and without prompting. The idea is that treachery is inherited - Sansa is the daughter of a traitor, and therefore naturally a traitor herself. I think Joffrey uses the idea of traitor blood as an excuse for beating her.

From a Lannister POV, it's a good thing that Sansa is seen as dangerously flawed. She is so very young, and beautiful, and her life so tragic that there is a serious risk of her attracting defenders of her own. So make that politically hazardous.

On the other hand, if Sansa's natural treachery is directed at her own family, that means her continued engagement to Joffrey still (but only just) makes sense.

 

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21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I agree. I also think Ned is to blame for Lady’s death. Obviously not as much as Cersei and Robert, but a hell of a lot more than Sansa. 

I don’t see any culpability for Ned in Lady’s death. The only thing he did that was stupid was to call Sansa to come and openly testify as to what she witnessed. He had heard what happened from Sansa and probably assumed Sansa would tell the whole truth. But she didn’t. She got selective amnesia at that point, which is understandable for someone in her position. She didn’t want to publicly state that her beloved Joffrey was a liar, so she chose to say she didn’t remember. In this case, GRRM is clearly contrasting Sansa’s weak and naive character to the bold and honest Arya. Arya is honest and loyal to a fault at this point in the books. Lady’s death is a consequence of Sansa claiming ignorance, Cersei’s cruelty, and Robert’s ineptitude. Ned had little to no say in how things transpired after Sansa refused to speak the truth. Had Sansa said that Joffrey attacked Mycah first, and Arya was just defending Mycah and Nymeria was defending Arya, perhaps just perhaps this would have given Robert the cover to dismiss the whole thing and let Lady live.

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We don't know that, because she doesn't empathize with Sansa either. She doesn't even ask the Hound about how she is doing, being with the ppl, that have murdered her father, while she escaped.

And not liking to ride, maybe also just has something to do with just not liking to ride, you know, as in not liking sports ? Believe me, you don't have to be an empath to ride horses, been round enough riders to know that and have ridden myself. There are enough ppl, who like riding, but do not even like horses. And I think, it's pretty clear Arya likes movement more than Sansa in general. 

Seeing Sansa up there when Ned is beheaded no doubt causes her to assume Sansa is unsafe.

Sansa doesn't "like" to ride, because she isn't good at it. Arya specifically mentions "horseriding" and "numbers" as the only two things she's better at than Sansa.

I didn't say you need to be an empath to ride horses. Straw man again. What I implied was that empathy helps in connecting with a horse, which ultimately helps in making it cooperate with you to its optimal ability. Sure, there are horseriders who whip a horse. That's not how Arya rides a horse to maximum speed.

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14 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yeah I remember that recent quote from Martin. But as you said nothing will convince those few that will continue to see Jon as evuul.  

You know they will go more nuts after he's resurrected. Jon is bound to get darker and it will be used against him. 

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1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Because she wanted to keep her affair with Jaime a secret from Tyrion. If she put all the blame on Sansa then he wouldn't question her how she came up with the idea to make a move on Ned. 

Why would she then mention to Tyrion the letter Ned wrote to Stannis?

At the time, Cersei was insisting that Stannis was lying about the incest, that his motive was ambition to become king, and that Ned was his co-conspirater.

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa is capable to empathize with ppl, who have done a lot of horrible things, and acknowledges their complexity,  while Arya's black and white sense of justice doesn't allow for that. Even though that black and white justice later gets questions through the Hound, but not without having evidence for his good deeds.

Bullshit! You really need to reread Arya's chapters. Arya's sense of justice is not black and white at all. If it was, she'd never handed Jaquen a drink while in a cage. Never freed Jaquen, Rorge and Biter from their burning cage, after Rorge threatened to do her harm. She'd never give water to the Karstarks at the bird cages of the Stoney Sept and prompt the BwB to mercy kill them.  She woudn't change her mind for a while about Wheese's name, etc... Nor would she test people on her list a second time to make sure she was right the first time around.

She gave Sandor life  by not giving in to his wish for a mercy kill. He lives and he will have a part to play in the coming books.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sansa doesn't "like" to ride, because she isn't good at it. Arya specifically mentions "horseriding" and "numbers" as the only two things she's better at than Sansa

Just because Arya is better doesn't automatically mean Sansa is bad at it. That's a straw man. If she can keep up with skilled riders as Joffrey and Margaery then she must be above average in terms of skill. Same goes for sums. She runs into no trouble as the acting lady of the Eyrie. 

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51 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cersei don't have the Golden Cloaks until LF gives them to her and  how many spies does Cersei have anyway??

She has Red Cloaks too. Lannister men. I assume these are the guys who attacked the Tower of the Hand. The Hound was with them.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Horses are used in therapy sometimes;  some people do find they can practise empathy by working with horses (I remember a scheme with schoolchildren working with free running horses in a ring. Seemed very successful). But I agree the very best riders go way beyond that.

Arya is a natural rider like Lyanna and Brandon (funny that it goes with wolf blood). Sansa is no centaur, but don't be fooled, she rides to a very high standard. She can keep pace with wild riders like Joffrey, and skilled riders like Margaery - all on high-bred horses going at full speed across country. And for the procession, Sansa is allocated a courser, a powerful hunting horse capable of carrying the Hound. She's good.

Does she want to ride, that's the question.

I agree that Sansa is likely a skilled rider. But it's one thing Arya is better at. We have two scenes where she can make a horse run so hard, without a lash, that even Harwin has to work hard to catch up with her. That type of natural riding, requires a connection to the animal that goes beyond training. It requires having a way with animals, and that requires a high level of empathy.

I do not claim Sansa is not empathic. Aside from a few disturbing moments, she can show empathy, and within a range that I consider average "empathy". The common range of empathy that grows with experience and time and teaching. But she's not an "empath".

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43 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Which I still find insane that even GRRM thinks this. Because as I said before, Sansa had no knowledge of what Ned was doing. She might never have gone to Cersei if she knew what was going on. So Sansa's action, self-serving as it may have been, was a direct result of Ned's own negligence. From his failure as a parent, allowing Arya constant disobedience and freedom which eventually would lead to Sansa, the ever obedient one, seeing what all the fuss was about. And if I remember correctly, Sansa felt wicked for misbehaving. His failure to have guards assigned to his daughters which was an absolute must after he dropped the incest bomb on Cersei. His failure to ever talk to Sansa and justify his actions, in this case cluing her in about the bigger picture. Ned's actions and inactions made it possible for Sansa to do what she did. So in the end, it's still all Ned's own fault to me.

Well he’s the author and creator of the characters so he should know. I don’t think Sansa is responsible for Ned’s death but readers are meant to question her loyalty in AGOT. She is naive and enamored by KL, Cersei and Joffrey so much that she takes her father’s secret to Cersei hoping that Cersei will talk to Robert who in turn will prevent Ned from leaving. Yes, this was the act of a child but  in doing so Sansa revealed her father’s plans (plans her father asked her not to reveal to anyone else) to Cersei. Arya maybe disobedient and wild but can you picture a scenario where Arya would reveal Ned secret to someone outside the family. And I don’t think Ned’s parenting has anything to do with Sansa’s actions. This was a purely selfish act on her part, something none of her other siblings would do. If Sansa does not feel somewhat responsible for betraying her father as Martin says, then she would still be clueless and a character in denial. I would rather have a Sansa who takes responsibility for this act than have her and the readers waive it away.

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13 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Just because Arya is better doesn't automatically mean Sansa is bad at it. That's a straw man. If she can keep up with skilled riders as Joffrey and Margaery then she must be above average in terms of skill. Same goes for sums. She runs into no trouble as the acting lady of the Eyrie. 

See my answer to this:

My point was that Arya was better [than Sansa] at it, and a natural. The straw man is inserting extra meaning to my statement that you quoted that is NOT MENTIONED BY ME AT ALL.

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4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That didn't occur to me. Why do you think so?

Here’s the quote:

Quote

The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards,

Sansa’s intent in going to Cersei was so that Cersei would convince Robert to forbid Ned from leaving KL.

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