Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don’t see any culpability for Ned in Lady’s death. The only thing he did that was stupid was to call Sansa to come and openly testify as to what she witnessed. He had heard what happened from Sansa and probably assumed Sansa would tell the whole truth. But she didn’t. She got selective amnesia at that point, which is understandable for someone in her position. She didn’t want to publicly state that her beloved Joffrey was a liar, so she chose to say she didn’t remember. In this case, GRRM is clearly contrasting Sansa’s weak and naive character to the bold and honest Arya. Arya is honest and loyal to a fault at this point in the books. Lady’s death is a consequence of Sansa claiming ignorance, Cersei’s cruelty, and Robert’s ineptitude. Ned had little to no say in how things transpired after Sansa refused to speak the truth. Had Sansa said that Joffrey attacked Mycah first, and Arya was just defending Mycah and Nymeria was defending Arya, perhaps just perhaps this would have given Robert the cover to dismiss the whole thing and let Lady live.

I agree w/ the points you made. But to me it’s still on Ned. Because Ned is the adult. And as you say, he knew what had really happened, and still he went along w/ Cersei’s demands and Robert’s order and he killed Lady knowing full well that she hadn’t attacked that little shit Joffrey. Instead of putting Sansa in that position, he should have told Robert and Cersei that he already knew what happened, and that Lady had not attacked the little psycho. Ned knows Sansa; he knows she’s not only a child, but naive and the type of person who wouldn’t go against the word of her beloved Prince Charming (  ). IMO, knowing all of this, Ned chose to put Sansa in an impossible position. Also worthy of mention is that Sansa probably didn’t expect Lady to be killed. I think Ned handled this incident very poorly. He should have stood up to Robert, he should have left then and there, or any number of things. But all these things had to happen for the plot to move forward the way it did, the way Martin wanted it to move forward.

[teej6]

Just now, Springwatch said:

Nope, don't see it. I think she wanted to stay on her own.

Yeah you are right. my mistake... it is to make her stay rather than forbidding Ned from leaving. But my point was that Sansa’s intent was to have Cersei talk to Robert who in turn will “command” Ned to agree.

[teej6]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ the points you made. But to me it’s still on Ned. Because Ned is the adult. And as you say, he knew what had really happened, and still he went along w/ Cersei’s demands and Robert’s order and he killed Lady knowing full well that she hadn’t attacked that little shit Joffrey. Instead of putting Sansa in that position, he should have told Robert and Cersei that he already knew what happened, and that Lady had not attacked the little psycho. Ned knows Sansa; he knows she’s not only a child, but naive and the type of person who wouldn’t go against the word of her beloved Prince Charming (  ). IMO, knowing all of this, Ned chose to put Sansa in an impossible position. Also worthy of mention is that Sansa probably didn’t expect Lady to be killed. I think Ned handled this incident very poorly. He should have stood up to Robert, he should have left then and there, or any number of things. But all these things had to happen for the plot to move forward the way it did, the way Martin wanted it to move forward.

Agree, Ned could have handled it better. He could have kept Sansa out, and bringing her to testify in an open setting was really stupid. He also could have refused Robert’s order just as he refused to sign on to killing Dany and her unborn baby. He didn’t, as you say, so as to move the plot forward. 

[Elegant Woes]

37 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And I don’t think Ned’s parenting has anything to do with Sansa’s actions

It does have to do with Ned's parenting. In her very first chapter Sansa is jealous of the relationship of Arya and Ned. Despite the fact that she's disobedient Ned never punishes Arya and instead dotes on her. Whereas Sansa who is obedient all the time doesn't get a fraction of the attention Arya does. And that becomes even more apparent when they get to king's Landing. Ned doesn't sit down with her and talk about the fact they are surrounded by enemies just like he did with Arya. In fact he prefers to keep her ignorant as long as possible (when he gets mad at Sansa being there when he holds court). He allows Arya to get what she wants (taking Syrio with them and allowing them to have one last lesson before leaving) when she isn't allowed to say goodbye to Joffrey. That is why she went to Cersei in the first place. In her mind Arya, who is disobedient all the time, gets rewarded, whereas she, who is obedient all the time, gets punished. In her mind it isn't fair. That is why Sansa repeatedly compares herself to Arya in her fourth chapter. She decided to be wicked for the first time, because why not? Since Arya can get away with anything, why can't she too? So yes even in her 'betrayal' Ned is still somewhat responsible. Had he been fair in dishing out punishments when it came to his daughters or even sat down Sansa about what was going on then none of it would have happened. 

@sweetsunray Your comment about Sansa's riding skills came after mine. 

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@sweetsunray Your comment about Sansa's riding skills came after mine. 

No matter, because the post you quoted of me to cry straw man, also did not include "Sansa cannot ride horses".

[Elegant Woes]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No matter, because the post you quoted of me to cry straw man, also did not include "Sansa cannot ride horses".

You said Sansa was not good at it (horse riding). That's why I said it was a straw man. Being better doesn't automatically mean the person in comparison is not good in it.

[kissdbyfire]

57 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

You know they will go more nuts after he's resurrected. Jon is bound to get darker and it will be used against him. 

Well, aren’t we putting the cart before the horse? He has to die before he can be resurrected.

 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

You said Sansa was bad riding. That's why I said it was a straw man. 

No I said, she "wasn't good at it". Not being good, doesn't mean being bad at something. I'm a skilled tennis player, but not a good tennis player. Not a bad one either. Why? My skill enables me to make correct returns, volleys, etc... but don't let me run for a ball and then play it well, because my depth sight on the ball absolutely sucks.

[Elegant Woes]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

No I said, she "wasn't good at it". Not being good, doesn't mean being bad at something. I'm a skilled tennis player, but not a good tennis player. Not a bad one either.

I misremembered your words and corrected it. Technically you are right, but in Sansa's case I disagree. 

[sweetsunray]

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think Sansa didn't ask her father for help after Sandor acted violently towards her (scared her and physically forced her to look at him, while she was all alone with him) and later threatened to kill her, because his story made her feel enormous amounts of empathy for him. Which for me is the defining sign, that she is indeed capable of incredible amounts of empathy and definitely more than the next person and average girl her age.

I wouldn't say "enormous" amounts of empathy, just the normal amount of empathy. But yes, I agree that it's empathy that makes her see him in a new light and with respect that helps her keep the secret. The empathy was established not just by the story, but the intimacy of the moment.

 

Quote

 

The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. "He was no true knight," she whispered to him.

The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. "No," he growled at her, "no, little bird, he was no true knight."

 

 

The reason I say "normal" amount of empathy is because there is fear for him, rather than herself, but for example she doesn't feel stronger emotions towards either Sandor or the Mountain in that moment. I certainly disagree that " a normal amount of empathy" is more than the "next person and average" girl her age. At the age of 11, a more than average empatic person would display a whole lot more empathy in various situations.

 

Quote

It might not always show, but this scene shows that the potential is there. [...] By keeping his secret, but also keeping a secret, that he threatened her from her father, she puts him and his well-being before her own safety. And what else is that other than pure selflessness? 

Of course there is the potential. I never denied Sansa has potential. But potential is not the same as making this out to be something incredibly "enormous" and "above average" let alone "an empath" in the next sentence.

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

You don't "become" an empath. You're born an empath. An empath never needs to learn "empathy". They do it automatically even as little children, way before the age that cognitive child development puts forward. What empaths usually need to learn is to not be empathic with everyone all the time. 

This is your personal opinion of what an empath is. Not a scientific one. There are psychopaths, that don't feel any empathy towards others whatsoever. Cognitive psychologists suspect first and foremost biological reasons. This is not changeable. Even therapy won't change that.

We all other normal ppl have mirror neurons (psychopaths have them as well, but they don't function properly), they are responsible for our ability to takeover other ppl's perspectives. 

But it is something that has to physically develop and is not just something, that you are just fully formed born with. Children are in general not very good at empathy, because their brains are not as developed yet. Please just google "Theory of mind" if you don't believe me. I've studied psychology and in cognitive psychology and developmental psychology you do learn learn a lot about that.

Children and their brains do also develop at their individual pace. Just because a child is more empathetic at 6 than another one at the same age, is not at indication for said child to show also stronger empathy levels at 15 or 25.

There is also NO proof for biological reasons (being born with it) being the the critical factor, when it comes to empathy levels and the pace of development for those.

It is with most things in psychology a gene-envionment-interaction that influences certain traits and it is absolutely impossible to determine which factor weighs stronger. If you have a standardized, scientific acceptable control group for your experimental group (twins who grew up under different circumstances f.e.), you might find some evidence to support your theories (not talking about you here specifically), whatever they might be. But this is still never proof.

So there is really no way for us to determine, if Arya were to be as empathetic, if she grew up differently. If her environmental influence was stronger or the biological one. There is also no way to determine how her empathy levels will be at 20.

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Seeing Sansa up there when Ned is beheaded no doubt causes her to assume Sansa is unsafe.

But she still doesn't ask the Hound how she is doing

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

What I implied was that empathy helps in connecting with a horse, which ultimately helps in making it cooperate with you to its optimal ability. Sure, there are horseriders who whip a horse. That's not how Arya rides a horse to maximum speed.

Sure and I only mentioned that being good at riding doesn't indicate that Arya is empathic. don't know what is straw man about that.

ergo Sansa being not got at it also doesn't say anything about her empathy levels.

If you are going to use such a weak argument, at least except me to use the same logic here for both girls

 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She gave Sandor life  by not giving in to his wish for a mercy kill. He lives and he will have a part to play in the coming books.

But she didn't know that. For all she knew. He was going to die a painful and slow death. Even GRRM said it was partly revenge.

[Mystical]

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

Well he’s the author and creator of the characters so he should know.

I don't care. I subscribe to the 'death of the author' in every form of media whether that's books, shows, movies or even art.

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

She is naive and enamored by KL, Cersei and Joffrey so much that she takes her father’s secret to Cersei hoping that Cersei will talk to Robert who in turn will prevent Ned from leaving. Yes, this was the act of a child but  in doing so Sansa revealed her father’s plans (plans her father asked her not to reveal to anyone else) to Cersei. Arya maybe disobedient and wild but can you picture a scenario where Arya would reveal Ned secret to someone outside the family. And I don’t think Ned’s parenting has anything to do with Sansa’s actions. This was a purely selfish act on her part, something none of her other siblings would do. If Sansa does not feel somewhat responsible for betraying her father as Martin says, then she would still be clueless and a character in denial. I would rather have a Sansa who takes responsibility for this act than have her and the readers waive it away.

Yes Sansa is naive but whose fault is that? It's not Sansa's, she didn't raise herself. That's a parental fail from Ned and Cat. And as I've said repeatedly, he gave Sansa no reason as to why he was taking them out of KL. To Sansa, who saw her fairytale going away, is was simply disobedience for probably the first time in her life. For the bigger plot going on, it helped Ned's enemies. But that was not something Sansa was in any way aware of. And that is Ned's fault.

The Arya comparisons need to stop. She is a wildly different character with different temperament. She was allowed more freedom and has a different relationship with Ned.

To say it's not parent fail...I don't see how that's possible. Sansa was the first born daughter of whom the expectations were much higher than her younger sister. They brought in a Septa for grooming. Sansa was just more susceptible to the grooming than Arya, and in part it's because they are not the same person and Arya was allowed more freedom. Sansa enjoyed all things womanly, music, sewing and so on. Arya did not. Ned and Cat raised Sansa in a bubble with nothing but fairytales while completely neglecting to prepare her for the reality of the world. The children should have never accompanied Ned to KL in the first place, both where completely unprepared for that vipers nest. Arya kept antagonizing everyone she didn't like no matter their standing in society and Sansa saw the world through rose colored glasses. Arya thumbed her nose at their societal norms while Sansa abided by them. That's a recipe for disaster that anyone with half a working brain should seen coming. Having no one assigned to watch over them but an alcoholic is absolutely a parental fail. Aside from all the pedophiles in that world who want Sansa, the Mycah incident and Sansa running to Cersei would never have happened if there were people assigned to watch over them. Freaking Joffrey showed more concern for Sansa's physical well being than Ned did when he tasked the Hound with taking Sansa back to the Keep after the tourney. Ned just send an alcoholic with Sansa who predictably passed out so Sansa was all alone. If that's not negligence and utter parental fail then I don't know what is.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

but for example she doesn't feel stronger emotions towards either Sandor or the Mountain in that moment. I certainly disagree that " a normal amount of empathy" is more than the "next person and average" girl her age. At the age of 11, a more than average empatic person would display a whole lot more empathy in various situations.

she doesn't feel stronger emotions towards them, because she is threatened! I think it is remarkable, that she is even able to feel  empathy for him at all in those circumstances, that she is able to feel sad for him and fear for him, even though he is scaring her to this level. And that she is able to accept "this intimacy" even though he doesn't care about her consent in this situation. 

And I for sure would have told my father about it, not his secret, but the thread.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I don't care. I subscribe to the 'death of the author' in every form of media whether that's books, shows, movies or even art.

Yeah, I also don't care about his opinion about Dany, Shae and Tyrion. Why would I care about his opinion about sansa? He is a white man in his 70s after all.

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she doesn't feel stronger emotions towards them, because she is threatened! I think it is remarkable, that she is even able to feel  empathy for him at all in those circumstances, that she is able to feel sad for him and fear for him, even though he is scaring her to this level. And that she is able to accept "this intimacy" even though he doesn't care about her consent in this situation. 

And I for sure would have told my father about it, not his secret, but the thread.

She isn't threatened before that quote I provided, but after.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

You are most likely right. With that said I wouldn't be surprised there were some readers who did believe that. 

Yes, there most definitely are and even worse. There are also threads, that discuss "how she should die" and rape is often included

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

She isn't threatened before that quote I provided, but after.

he grabs her face forcefully and doesn't let her go! That is very threatening imo! She is afraid of him for most of this walk . She even starts to cry.