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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?


Greywater-Watch

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Listen I love Ned. He is great. But how can Sansa hold responsibility for Lady's death for not spilling the beans, Cersei holds some for giving the command, Robert for allowing it but Ned holds absolutely none for actually killing Lady? 

No way. I get Ned was in a bad position but so was Sansa. If it's no excuse for her, it's not one for him. 

What do you think Eddard should of done in the face of a direct order from his King?  What was his recourse in that situation?

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9 hours ago, teej6 said:

In AGOT she is written as a spoilt selfish girl who cannot see beyond her own happiness and needs... whether it be a caricature/ trope. The fact that she does not even give a second thought to the killing of Mycah reflects really poorly on Sansa. Even after the killing of Lady she does not have the presence of mind to see things for what they are — she continues to blame Arya and continues to justify the actions of her beloved Joffrey although everyone else and their mother sees the little twerp as despicable. The fact that Sansa’s character has a growth trajectory in a positive way in subsequent books does not negate her actions in the first book. The author of course wants the reader to see his characters in a holistic way and ergo you have Jamie’s and Hound’s redemption arcs, but just because readers begin to like certain characters as the story progresses doesn’t mean they have to justify or rationalize these characters earlier acts. 

I completely support teej6's Analysis of Sansa's behaviour in AGOT. Many comments have been on that Sansa would have been neglected by Ned and thus acted the way she did. I can absolutely not follow this thought.

On the contrary, Sansa was pampered and the beloved daughter. Catelyn loved her most besides Bran. She was Septa Mordana's favourite. While on the contrary Arya was always being criticized, had an ugly nickname (horseface) etc. So when one of the two girls would have had reasons to react against the family because of frustration, it should have been Arya, not Sansa.

And blaming Ned for his role in Lady's death sounds bizzarre to me. That was completely 'Sansa's doing, knowingly putting her love for Joffrey higher than caring for her sister. She LIED saying she would have forgotten everything. She had told Ned before what really happend. And she must have been clear about the high risk for Arya in case Robert would believe his son. And all that after she had just seen Joffrey's ugly and true face as a cruel coward and liar.

Hell, what was Ned to do? There was a 2 days search (from Lannister point of view a hunt) for Arya and Ned was in the woods when he got news that Arya had already been found and put in front of the King. What options did he have other than hurry back and follow the meeting the Robert and Cersei had already started?

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On 11/8/2019 at 11:35 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Thoughts on this?

I've often made this point to folks over the years, and it's a good reminder. You're absolutely right that while it would have changed the course of the story in some aspects, the fact is that the war would still have happened, Robb would still have been crowned and ultimately killed, and so on. Cersei was already preparing to move against Ned before Sansa said anything, the timing of it only changes the escape of Arya and Sansa. While this would have knock-on effects -- yes, Jaime would likely be executed in retribution for Ned, but in the grand scheme of things that's not that important to the War of the Five Kings, and so Rickard Karstark wouldn't have sought retribution for his sons and so on -- these seem relatively minor.

The largest possible thing I could see happening in the larger political picture is if Robb used Sansa being safe as a tool to bargain with the Tyrells after Renly's death. But that would probably be fruitless, since Joffrey would be free to marry Margaery from the get-go.

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

What options did he have other than hurry back and follow the meeting the Robert and Cersei had already started?

You said yourself Ned had already heard the true from Sansa. So when he is before Cersei and Robert, and Cersei demands Lady be killed and Robert gives the order, Ned should have done the same he did irt Dany’s assassination. 

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7 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

What do you think Eddard should of done in the face of a direct order from his King?  What was his recourse in that situation?

He could have tried to argue more. He could have packed up his kids & their wolves & left that night. He could have hid Lady for a day or two until Robert calmed down & tried to talk to him again. Maybe none of these things would have worked, but maybe they would have. 

 

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4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

And blaming Ned for his role in Lady's death sounds bizzarre to me. That was completely 'Sansa's doing, knowingly putting her love for Joffrey higher than caring for her sister. She LIED saying she would have forgotten everything. She had told Ned before what really happend. And she must have been clear about the high risk for Arya in case Robert would believe his son. And all that after she had just seen Joffrey's ugly and true face as a cruel coward and liar.

So you truly think anything would have been different, if she'd told the truth? I think it would have made Cersei (and Joff) only more aggressive 

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6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So you truly think anything would have been different, if she'd told the truth? I think it would have made Cersei (and Joff) only more aggressive 

Yes, I think so. It would have forced Robert to make a choice: Either stand with Ned or  against him. In either case the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey would have been off the table, I think. The room was full of people, so either the relation between Stark and Lannisters would have been opnely broken or Joffrey and partly Cersei would have lost their Reputation, even in the eyes of the Lannisters.

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Just now, Greywater-Watch said:

The problem was that Robert hade made it a public affair. That is what Ned couldn't stop anymore, private talk with Robert was no longer possible as the King had ordered Arya in front of all people.

I belive you quoted the wrong person here. I was refering to Ned taking his daugter out of KL before confronting Cersei.

I never understood why Eddard even brought Arya to KL. Sansa was bethrothed so is expected for her to be there, but taking Arya to a place he belives to be so dangerous?

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5 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Yes, I think so. It would have forced Robert to make a choice: Either stand with Ned or  against him. In either case the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey would have been off the table, I think. The room was full of people, so either the relation between Stark and Lannisters would have been opnely broken or Joffrey and partly Cersei would have lost their Reputation, even in the eyes of the Lannisters.

I disagree. It would have only made c+j more aggressive and more inclined to make Sansa appear like a liar as well. They would have gotten their revenge for this one way or another and it would have been only bigger, if she had openly gone against her betrothed and I don't Robert would have allowed for the engagement to be broken.

And nevertheless a direwolf did bite the crown prince so a direwolf would have died for that.

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I never understood why Eddard even brought Arya to KL. Sansa was bethrothed so is expected for her to be there, but taking Arya to a place he belives to be so dangerous?

Did he truly believe it was so dangerous? 

He wanted to make a Lady out of her :laugh: didn't work so well instead he organized her dancing lessons.

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19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Did he truly believe it was so dangerous? 

He wanted to make a Lady out of her :laugh: didn't work so well instead he organized her dancing lessons.

Well Ned's own words are

“I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will I lie to you. We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill."

And I'm sure he could find a better and more secure place to foster her.

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Yes, I think so. It would have forced Robert to make a choice: Either stand with Ned or  against him. In either case the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey would have been off the table, I think. The room was full of people, so either the relation between Stark and Lannisters would have been opnely broken or Joffrey and partly Cersei would have lost their Reputation, even in the eyes of the Lannisters.

Only we more or less know Robert would have sided w/ Cersei, since that’s exactly what he did. He’s married to her, and that is not gonna change over Lady or anything else apart from Cersei’s treason being revelead. Which, of course, couldn’t have been done then because Ned had no idea at that point. And Robert wouldn’t side w/ Cersei because he agreed w/ her or anything “reasonable” like, but only because he was a lazy drunk who would prefer to have to make peace w/ Ned later or even not have Ned as hand at all rather than incurring Cersei’s rage. 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Only we more or less know Robert would have sided w/ Cersei, since that’s exactly what he did. He’s married to her, and that is not gonna change over Lady or anything else apart from Cersei’s treason being revelead. Which, of course, couldn’t have been done then because Ned had no idea at that point. And Robert wouldn’t side w/ Cersei because he agreed w/ her or anything “reasonable” like, but only because he was a lazy drunk who would prefer to have to make peace w/ Ned later or even not have Ned as hand at all rather than incurring Cersei’s rage. 

I agree. Imo Robert was quite afraid of Cersei and the Lannisters and if it was not something, that he truly cared about himself (and he doesn't care about Mycah and the direwolfs are just pets for him) he would not go against her so not to risk her fury and revenge. 

Hurting Cersei's children is not acceptable, it is worse, than hurting herself and she won't rest until she gets "justice" for that and Robert very well knows that. So the trail was just a farce. The outcome was determined from the beginning

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9 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

That was completely 'Sansa's doing, knowingly putting her love for Joffrey higher than caring for her sister. She LIED saying she would have forgotten everything. She had told Ned before what really happend. And she must have been clear about the high risk for Arya in case Robert would believe his son.

"And she must have been clear about the high risk for Arya in case Robert would believe his son."

You just made my point for me. What do you think the consequences for Arya would have been had Sansa testified truthfully, that Arya struck the Crown Prince with a weapon and that Arya's wolf attacked him (and drew blood)? We may think that Arya behaved admirably in standing up for the butcher's boy, but there's no way a monarchical society would see it that way. Certainly the actual monarch and his wife would not think that a mere butcher's boy had any reason or right to even defend himself against their son.

There good reason to believe that Sansa, by refusing to take either side, was attempting to protect her sister as much as to exonerate Joffrey.

 

9 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Hell, what was Ned to do?

There was plenty Ned could have done.

He could have kept Sansa away from the whole "trial". She had already told him the entire story and he believed her. He could have done the talking on her behalf, being the adult and all. Instead he hung her out to dry and didn't say a word about it when her story didn't match up to what she had previously told him.

He need not have killed Lady at all. He made sure to arrange for Lady's corpse to be returned to Winterfell for the express reason that he didn't want Cersei getting a wolf pelt. He could have sent back an alive Lady and told Robert she was dead. Nobody would have been the wiser.

After this incident, Ned could have seen it for what it was - a flaming, blinking red flag that it was a bad idea all around for him to be involved with Robert's kingship in any way and an even worse idea for his daughter to marry into that family. It should have been as plain as the nose on his face at that point. It's kind of incredible that he kept the betrothal in place after that, nor did he even attempt to have a frank talk with Sansa about it.

Ned could have remembered that he didn't entirely trust Robert and hadn't for many years. I mean, at the very beginning of the book, Ned makes sure to think about how he hadn't seen or spoken to Robert in a number of years. He had separated himself from his bestie, someone he was once closer to than to his own brother, for quite a long time; that was not accidental.

In short, Ned could have acted like an adult and not let the situation get so out of hand. 

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4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Yes, I think so. It would have forced Robert to make a choice: Either stand with Ned or  against him. In either case the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey would have been off the table, I think. The room was full of people, so either the relation between Stark and Lannisters would have been opnely broken or Joffrey and partly Cersei would have lost their Reputation, even in the eyes of the Lannisters.

You know what would have prevented Lady's death? PARENTS WATCHING THEIR FREAKING CHILDREN. This can't be said enough times since people seem to completely absolve the freaking adults of everything, especially Ned. Arya wouldn't have been playing with Mycah and even if Ned allowed it, it would have been under supervision. Joffrey having guards with him wouldn't change anything since they do what he tells them anyway. But guards would have either prevented the scene from escalating but at the very least stopped Arya from attacking Joffrey and removed her and Mycah from the scene.

Joffrey, Cersei, Arya, Robert and Ned are the most responsible for what happened to Lady. Joffrey by being his douchy self, Cersei by being a spiteful wench, Arya for playing with Mycah, Robert for wanting to stop his wife's nagging and Ned for actually killing Lady. 3 innocent (Mycah, Lady, Sansa) paid the price for other peoples actions while none of the people who caused this drama paid anything. What exactly do people want Sansa to do? Playing Switzerland was the best thing she could have done and her and Lady still played the price for doing so. Admit to Arya's account of what happened? I'm sure there are never any consequences in that world for attacking the CROWN PRINCE. Back up Joffrey's account which would make her a liar and outright betray her family? Maybe a little less vitriol from Cersei and Joffrey but I doubt that. And I'm sure the readers would have loved that. Lets say she lies and agrees with Joffrey and Lady is saved. Then everyone would be calling her selfish for saving her wolf. No matter what Sansa does people seem determined to blame her for everything that goes wrong.

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