Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

He could have kept Sansa away from the whole "trial". She had already told him the entire story and he believed her. He could have done the talking on her behalf, being the adult and all. Instead he hung her out to dry and didn't say a word about it when her story didn't match up to what she had previously told him.

You are so right! Why did he actually not do that? He was her father, why didn't he just call her out or why didn't he just say to Robert: "Okay if she can't remember rn. I'll tell you what she told me before. This is what she said..." It almost feels like he didn't want to take on the responsibility of accusing the prince himself or put Sansa into the position of doing that. Either I really don't know why he didn't

[Darksnider05]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You are so right! Why did he actually not do that? He was her father, why didn't he just call her out or why didn't he just say to Robert: "Okay if she can't remember rn. I'll tell you what she told me before. This is what she said..." It almost feels like he didn't want to take on the responsibility of accusing the prince himself or put Sansa into the position of doing that. Either I really don't know why he didn't

Ya'll seem to not understand the King calls a witness they do not get to defer to someone else.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

33 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

She had already told him the entire story and he believed her.

I agree with most of what you said & I've seen a couple of posters say this but I don't remember Sansa telling Ned about it. Is it stated that Sansa has told Ned the truth of the matter?

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Ya'll seem to not understand the King calls a witness they do not get to defer to someone else.

Bollocks. Going by that argument, when Robert wanted to have Dany murdered, Ned wouldn’t have been able to do anything but go along w/ it. And we know Ned didn’t go along w/ it. And in the incident w/ Lady it would have been even easier for Ned to stand up and say whatever he wanted. Cersei would most definitely push Robert into doing whatever she wanted but execute Ned. So, yeah, there’s a lot Ned could have done. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Joffrey, Cersei, Arya, Robert and Ned are the most responsible for what happened to Lady. Joffrey by being his douchy self, Cersei by being a spiteful wench, Arya for playing with Mycah, Robert for wanting to stop his wife's nagging and Ned for actually killing Lady. 3 innocent (Mycah, Lady, Sansa) paid the price for other peoples actions while none of the people who caused this drama paid anything. What exactly do people want Sansa to do? Playing Switzerland was the best thing she could have done and her and Lady still played the price for doing so. Admit to Arya's account of what happened? I'm sure there are never any consequences in that world for attacking the CROWN PRINCE. Back up Joffrey's account which would make her a liar and outright betray her family? Maybe a little less vitriol from Cersei and Joffrey but I doubt that. And I'm sure the readers would have loved that. Lets say she lies and agrees with Joffrey and Lady is saved. Then everyone would be calling her selfish for saving her wolf. No matter what Sansa does people seem determined to blame her for everything that goes wrong.

I disagree a little here. I don't think Arya is at all to blame for Lady's death. All she did was play with another child, surely that alone doesn't make her part of Lady's death? 

I don't understand how Sansa can be an innocent party & Arya holds blame. It was Sansa's lie that allowed the Queen to demand the direwolf die. I'm not saying Sansa wasn't in a difficult predicament & I understand why she lied but she still lied, & as a direct result of her lie an innocent direwolf lost it's life. I don't think she is at all to blame for Mycah's death of course but I think it's beyond false to say 3 innocents paid the price for Arya & the other's fault. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with most of what you said & I've seen a couple of posters say this but I don't remember Sansa telling Ned about it. Is it stated that Sansa has told Ned the truth of the matter?

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.” Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more. Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.” “They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

This very much implies Sansa had told the same story as Ayra. He says he knows the truth, meaning his both daughters told the same story. Now he is bringing her in front of the king. Not the king himself. He is requesting her to tell her story not Robert. So I don't see how he couldn't say, but Sansa this is not what you told me before. 

And it also doesn't help, that Renly an Bobby are already starting to humiliate Joffrey. Which doesn't help either.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You are so right! Why did he actually not do that? He was her father, why didn't he just call her out or why didn't he just say to Robert: "Okay if she can't remember rn. I'll tell you what she told me before. This is what she said..." It almost feels like he didn't want to take on the responsibility of accusing the prince himself or put Sansa into the position of doing that. Either I really don't know why he didn't

I asked someone else this too but do we know that Sansa told Ned what happened? I just don't recall that being stated. If she didn't I think that makes a difference as to why Ned didn't say "I'll tell you what she told me" etc. But I agree Ned should have done more & I honestly don't understand why he didn't. Maybe partially because he didn't think the direwolves should be "pets" to begin with? Maybe he really believed that since Nymeria had already bitten someone it was only a matter of time before Lady did the same? I really wish we would have gotten his thoughts on this because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if Sansa didn't tell Ned what happened he knew, as well as anyone who just listened to Arya & Sansa knew, that Arya was telling the truth & Sansa was playing it safe. I don't think anyone in that room really believed Sansa couldn't remember the events. They knew exactly why she wasn't telling. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with most of what you said & I've seen a couple of posters say this but I don't remember Sansa telling Ned about it. Is it stated that Sansa has told Ned the truth of the matter?

Yes. When Arya tells her version and Robert is saying, “one says one thing, the other something else, what am I to do?” (Paraphrasing). Ned says Arya and Joffrey weren’t the only ones present. Poole enters w/ Sansa, and Ned thinks how he’d heard Sansa’s version of the story the night Arya disappeared. 

‘d by @Nagini's Neville

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.” Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more. Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.” “They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

 

ahh! Thanks! So Ned knew, obviously he didn't think about the predicament he was putting Sansa in when he asked her to tell the Robert what happened because he calls her assuming she will tell the same story she told him. I'm not saying he shouldn't have, only that he must not have because if he had he would have known Sansa was going to have a hard time telling. 

Do you think if Ned had told Sansa she would not have to marry Joffrey it would have changed what she said that day? Honestly I don't think it would have. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Do you think if Ned had told Sansa she would not have to marry Joffrey it would have changed what she said that day? Honestly I don't think it would have. 

No, I don’t think it would have. But again, Ned is the adult. He should have known he was putting Sansa in an impossible position... He should have just said Sansa was too distraught and had already told him exactly what Arya said. Or just fought tooth and nail, resigned, whatever. Anything but put Sansa in that position. 

But again, Martin wanted the plot to move forward in a certain way, and this is how he chose to do it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

No, I don’t think it would have. But again, Ned is the adult. He should have known he was putting Sansa in an impossible position... He should have just said Sansa was too distraught and had already told him exactly what Arya said. Or just fought tooth and nail, resigned, whatever. Anything but put Sansa in that position. 

But again, Martin wanted the plot to move forward in a certain way, and this is how he chose to do it. 

Oh, absolutely. I agree 100%. I was just thinking of how Ned could have made Sansa feel safe enough to tell the truth & I don't think there really was a way. He should have spoke up for her. 

[Nagini's Neville]

29 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Ya'll seem to not understand the King calls a witness they do not get to defer to someone else.

But the king doesn't call a witness. It is Ned, who calls her. look at #287

[Elegant Woes]

Since Sansa has a habit of rewriting traumatic events I don't think it would have made a difference. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

But the king doesn't call a witness. It is Ned, who calls her. look at #287

Right, even if he had this was far from a "formal" court setting. Ned has absolutely no qualms calling Robert out in front of the entire small council when Robert wants to have Dany killed. 

[Springwatch]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So Ned knew, obviously he didn't think about the predicament he was putting Sansa in when he asked her to tell the Robert what happened because he calls her assuming she will tell the same story she told him. I'm not saying he shouldn't have, only that he must not have because if he had he would have known Sansa was going to have a hard time telling. 

Maybe, maybe not. I think he had an idea that Sansa, sweet and gentle and anxious, would make a very good impression on Robert. Robert's sentimental side is as extreme as all  the rest of him, as shown by his obsessive romancing over Lyanna's memory.

And of course Sansa's story matched Arya's - else Ned would never have called her.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ahh! Thanks! So Ned knew, obviously he didn't think about the predicament he was putting Sansa in when he asked her to tell the Robert what happened because he calls her assuming she will tell the same story she told him. I'm not saying he shouldn't have, only that he must not have because if he had he would have known Sansa was going to have a hard time telling. 

Do you think if Ned had told Sansa she would not have to marry Joffrey it would have changed what she said that day? Honestly I don't think it would have. 

No I don't think so either. It would have felt like a punishment to her. But he can't expect "both" from her.

1. He could have either not put her into that situation at all. He could have just said as her father:" My other daughter actually told the same story." But then must have broken up the engagement. He couldn't have thrown her under the bus like that and then marry her to him after.

2. Or he could have sat Sansa down after she told him the truth and had a serious talk with her about Joffrey.

That was what I was talking about in the beginning of our conversation about Ned ignoring warning signs just as much as Sansa. Because he he knew about the warning signs. Both Sansa and Arya had told the truth about what happened at the Trident. The real warning sign to me always was, that Joff actually threatened Ayra with his sword to the degree, that her wolf attacked him. That should have been warning sign enough imo. But then he heard the actual story from Ayra and Sansa. So imo he had just as much warning signs as Sansa. But the difference is, that he is not an 11 year old little girl with an infatuation, but an adult and also responsible for her as her father.

I don't blame Ned though. I think it is always easy from the outside (and as readers, that we have the complete knowledge of the whole situation and outcome) to be convinced, that someone should have known better. We also have the "hindsight-bias". But if we don't blame Ned, Sansa shouldn't be blamed either.

In this serious talk he could have pointed out to Sansa all the things that are wrong with Joffrey. He could have explained it long and detailed and told her he was ending the engagement, because Joffrey is not someone, who is a good person, but dangerous. It would have needed to be a very strict and tough talk. Not how he talks to her usually. So if she threw a temper tantrum and didn't agree his him (very likely she would do exactly that)  he would have the waring signs and should not bring her in front of Robert.

But if he had explained it to her very well and she was understanding, he should have told her how impotent it is, that she supports her sister and tells the truth, because now since not marrying Joffrey anymore, she doesn't owe him loyalty. But she owes it to her family. So if she 100% got that and was understanding about Joffrey's nature, he could have brought her before Robert.

[Mystical]

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree a little here. I don't think Arya is at all to blame for Lady's death. All she did was play with another child, surely that alone doesn't make her part of Lady's death?

Actions have consequences right? Highborn Ladies are I'm sure not to get involved with common folk like that. Much less run off with them to play. Heck I think most of them are not to engage in male activities, like sword fighting, at all. And I'm sure everyone in that world is not allowed to attack the crown prince.

It's funny that Sansa running to Cersei absent the knowledge of what's going on in KL gets blamed for Ned's death. But Arya 'just wanted to play with another child' so it's fine and she is blameless for Lady's death...because? There are societal norms in their world which people and children have to obey. Lady Sansa disobeyed her father which is against their society, it had bad consequences -> Ned's death Sansa's fault. Lady Arya running off with some commoner and play sword fighting and attacking Joffrey is against their societal norms and it has bad consequences -> Arya shares no blame for Lady's (or Mycah's) death.

Both of them engaged in behavior not befitting their societal rules. In both cases someone died. Mind you this is not my opinion, as I agree with you about Arya just wanting to play with another child but she did attack Joffrey. And Sansa was absolutely self-serving when she ran to Cersie. But the measuring stick for both characters is different here it seems. Which makes sense how? If one blames Sansa for Ned's death, then Arya is to blame for Lady's (and Mycah's). Simple as that. Frankly that Sansa gets blamed as the main perpetrator for either Ned or Lady is nonsensical. While Ned and Arya and their actions are excused. One either uses the same measuring stick for all characters or simply admit to bias.

[Elegant Woes]

I think you guys should read this thread. It goes into great detail that the mistakes both Sansa and Ned made weren't that much different.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No I don't think so either. It would have felt like a punishment to her. But he can't expect "both" from her.

1. He could have either not put her into that situation at all. He could have just said as her father:" My other daughter actually told the same story." But then must have broken up the engagement. He couldn't have thrown her under the bus like that and then marry her to him after.

2. Or he could have sat Sansa down after she told him the truth and had a serious talk with her about Joffrey.

That was what I was talking about in the beginning of our conversation about Ned ignoring warning signs just as much as Sansa. Because he he knew about the warning signs. Both Sansa and Arya had told the truth about what happened at the Trident. The real warning sign to me always was, that Joff actually threatened Ayra with his sword to the degree, that her wolf attacked him. That should have been warning sign enough imo. But then he heard the actual story from Ayra and Sansa. So imo he had just as much warning signs as Sansa. But the difference is, that he is not an 11 year old little girl with an infatuation, but an adult and also responsible for her as her father.

I don't blame Ned though. I think it is always easy from the outside (and as readers, that we have the complete knowledge of the whole situation and outcome) to be convinced, that someone should have known better. We also have the "hindsight-bias". But if we don't blame Ned, Sansa shouldn't be blamed either.

In this serious talk he could have pointed out to Sansa all the things that are wrong with Joffrey. He could have explained it long and detailed and told her he was ending the engagement, because Joffrey is not someone, who is a good person, but dangerous. It would have needed to be a very strict and tough talk. Not how he talks to her usually. So if she threw a temper tantrum and didn't agree his him (very likely she would do exactly that)  he would have the waring signs and should not bring her in front of Robert.

But if he had explained it to her very well and she was understanding, he should have told her how impotent it is, that she supports her sister and tells the truth, because now since not marrying Joffrey anymore, she doesn't owe him loyalty. But she owes it to her family. So if she 100% got that and was understanding about Joffrey's nature, he could have brought her before Robert.

I agree, I was just mulling over what Ned could have done to make Sansa feel safe enough to tell the truth. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I think you guys should read this thread. It goes into great detail that the mistakes both Sansa and Ned made weren't that much different.

 

Good oldie-ish one. And defo, Ned and Sansa are very alike.