Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Nagini's Neville]

"She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see …” “You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.” “Arya, stop it?!” Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. “Are you hurt?” he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear."

I feel like from the text it is pretty clear how torn Sansa feels. She doesn't want to betray her sister. she doesn't want to betray Joffrey. She doesn't want to speak out against either of them. And her answer does reflect that. She "doesn't remember" imo kind of means, she doesn't want to give an answer at all. She doesn't want to be in this situation.

She is under so much stress she is about to cry. After she says a few words Arya already attacks her and starts hitting her. Otherwise Ned maybe could have followed up with questions, but it is still no excuse for him imo. But maybe after that he wanted to spare her, because she didn't even seem to be able to listen to him anymore. Normally she would make a fuss for Arya hitting her, but she doesn't here- she doesn't even claim to be hurt. She is just pale and starring at her sister. She knows she fucked up. I do think she feels very guilty here, but she was in an impossible situation. 

And Arya getting always so angry and aggressive so quickly makes it "easier" to fight back against her and hate later. And blame her. Not that it makes it right, but it is easier to hate someone back, who passionately already hates you.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Actions have consequences right?

Absolutely, but for you to take blame for a consequence there has to be some direct correlation between your action & said consequence right? Like, if I'm in a gas station buying some gum & the clerk gets robbed it doesn't mean it's my fault or that I shouldn't have been buying gum.

 

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Highborn Ladies are I'm sure not to get involved with common folk like that. 

I don't think there are any rules against it. At least none that I know of. Some high born ladies would think they are too good to get involved with common folk surely & there are certainly others who would look down upon another high born person for doing so but I would highly doubt it's agains the law in anyway or we would have heard about it. Even if there is some "unspoken" rule regarding it, it would apply less to children. Arya has played with the commonfolk in Winterfell & no one has chastised or punished her for it. 

22 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Much less run off with them to play.

I believe Arya was told to stay close so her running off to play is disobeying her father but still doesn't have any bearing on what happened to Lady or Micah. Again, if I'm stealing gum from the gas station & it gets robbed - even though I was doing something I wasn't supposed to - it is not my fault the gas station got robbed. 

23 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Heck I think most of them are not to engage in male activities, like sword fighting, at all.

We know this isn't true. It's not common but it happens. Lyanna did the same things. Ned hires Arya a sword fighting instructor to teach her to sword fight. Do you think he would do that if that is something they were "not to do"? Some people will look down on it but it certainly isn't anything illegal or immoral & definitely nothing that leads to the death of a direwolf. 

25 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And I'm sure everyone in that world is not allowed to attack the crown prince.

Right I would assume not but attacking the crown prince does not = Lady having to die. If anything in that whole incident is to blame for Lady's death it would be Nymeria attacking Joffrey. 

33 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It's funny that Sansa running to Cersei absent the knowledge of what's going on in KL gets blamed for Ned's death.

I've never said any such thing so I'm not sure what you are referring to here. 

33 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But Arya 'just wanted to play with another child' so it's fine and she is blameless for Lady's death...because?

Because she just wanted to play with another child. Not liking the truth is not the same as it not being the truth. 

34 minutes ago, Mystical said:

There are societal norms in their world which people and children have to obey.

No, societal norms are exactly that - norms. Which means while things may fall to the left & right of these things the majority fall within the norms. It Societal norms are not something that have to be obeyed nor are they typically punishable. 

35 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Lady Sansa disobeyed her father which is against their society, it had bad consequences -> Ned's death Sansa's fault.

Again, I've never said this & strongly disagree that Ned's death was Sansa's fault. If you think it is her fault, that's your opinion. 

36 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Lady Arya running off with some commoner and play sword fighting and attacking Joffrey is against their societal norms and it has bad consequences -> Arya shares no blame for Lady's (or Mycah's) death.

Arya running off (whether alone or with someone else) was disobeying her father. Not disobeying a rule or a law. Arya attacking Joffrey is probably punishable by law but thankfully Robert agreed it was just an altercation between two children. Explain to me how Arya attacking Joffrey = Lady's death? 

38 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Both of them engaged in behavior not befitting their societal rules. In both cases someone died. Mind you this is not my opinion, as I agree with you about Arya just wanting to play with another child but she did attack Joffrey. And Sansa was absolutely self-serving when she ran to Cersie. But the measuring stick for both characters is different here it seems. Which makes sense how? If one blames Sansa for Ned's death, then Arya is to blame for Lady's (and Mycah's). Simple as that. Frankly that Sansa gets blamed as the main perpetrator for either Ned or Lady is nonsensical. While Ned and Arya and their actions are excused. One either uses the same measuring stick for all characters or simply admit to bias.

Well, no, your measuring stick may be different for the two characters but mine is the same. I don't think Sansa is to blame for Ned's death but Arya has even less to do with Lady & Mycah's death. The blame for Ned's death lies with Joffrey & anyone else who was in cahoots with him. Lady's death lies with Ned, Robert, & Cersei. Mycah's death lies with the Hound & Cersei (assuming she gave that order) 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 13. November 2019 at 8:46 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree, I was just mulling over what Ned could have done to make Sansa feel safe enough to tell the truth. 

imo he could have only made her feel safe, if he was able to break her infatuation and also tell her, she wasn't to marry Joffrey anymore. So it would have been basically an impossible task. In post #301 I addressed, what Ned's reasons could have been for not following up with Sansa, when she said she didn't know.

But we have to remember, that even after that Ned let her hang out with Joff at the feast after the tourney, where he was "lovely" to her again, only supervised by her Septa, who doesn't even make sure she gets home safely. 

So this whole time he doesn't give Sansa any signs, that he disapproves of joffrey. How should she grasp the magnitude of what Joffrey did, when she sees her father not being concerned about it.

Then her father just suddenly tells her, Joffrey is "no Prince Aemon, you, must believe me." And that's it. He owed Sansa at least the talk he gave Arya about sticking together and also taking about why he doesn't want her to marry Joffrey anymore. It is her future after all and to wipe that away with just one sentence...Of course he can't tell her the whole truth, so he should have pointed the problems about Joffrey out to her. The question is however, if Ned would have even ended the engagement, if it wasn't for the incest. 

Imo he just took her obedience for granted, while he always had to take care of Arya, because she was always acting out. He basically didn't worry to much about Sansa. Imo that's also why he asked her to speak out before the King. He just expected her to obey like always. And didn't consider the position he was putting her in. Imo he just didn't think to much about what was going on with her in general. Not in an ill-intentioned way, but he had a lot to do and she was always functioning and seemed happy, while Arya seemed unhappy about being a lady and wasn't functioning.

Arya wanted to fight and run around in comfortable clothes and play and be free- when that was taken away from her she rebelled and did it anyway.

What Ned didn't consider was that Arya's fighting etc. was Sansa's Being married to joffrey (being a fairytale queen) and that if he would take it away from her, without any explanation, she might rebel as well.

Edit: I think Ned actually never even officially ends the engagement

[Nagini's Neville]

50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Good oldie-ish one. And defo, Ned and Sansa are very alike.

And that's why I like them both  was always my opinion Ned was just a "Little Sansa" himself 

[Nagini's Neville]

48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We know this isn't true. It's not common but it happens. Lyanna did the same things. Ned hires Arya a sword fighting instructor to teach her to sword fight. Do you think he would do that if that is something they were "not to do"? Some people will look down on it but it certainly isn't anything illegal or immoral & definitely nothing that leads to the death of a direwolf. 

I kinda disagree, because Ned did take her to KL to make a Lady out of her. And she does get punished, when she is in WF and running away from "Lady-activities". Ned's first reaction, when he sees Needle is, he should break it to put an end to this nonsense. And she was not only playing, but playing sword fighting with Mycah.

“The septa is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.” “I don’t want to be a lady!” Arya flared. “I ought to snap this toy across my knee here and now, and put an end to this nonsense.”

Only when he sees that Arya won't give up, he stops being so hard on her and thinks to himself, if she is going to fight away, she is might as well learn how to do it right and than he talks about Lyanna etc. , but we don't actually see how Lyanna came to be able to fight.

I would agree that in general it is not acceptable for Ladys to do male activities. We see that with Brienne's story. For her it was also a long road to have her father allow it and after that she gets constantly discriminated against.

Of course there are the Morment women, but there are an exception.

I think it is generally not accepted, but if the father allows it the daughter can do it, but will be discriminated against. And imo Brienne is also only relatively safe, because she is so good at it. So no one can mess with her. But it is quite dangerous for a woman (because of the discrimination) and I think this is also a reason why good fathers don't want to allow it. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I kinda disagree, because Ned did take her to KL to make a Lady out of her. And she does get punished, when she is in WF and running away from "Lady-activities". Ned's first reaction, when he sees Needle is, he should break it to put an end to this nonsense. And she was not only playing, but playing sword fighting with Mycah.

“The septa is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.” “I don’t want to be a lady!” Arya flared. “I ought to snap this toy across my knee here and now, and put an end to this nonsense.”

Only when he sees that Arya won't give up, he stops being so hard on her and thinks to himself, if she is going to fight away, she is might as well learn how to do it right and than he talks about Lyanna etc. , but we don't actually see how Lyanna came to be able to fight.

Yes, Cat and Ned talk about it being past time Arya learns how to behave more lady-like. But that doesn’t necessarily mean she can’t be a tomboy also. Meaning, it’s more about learning when it’s ok to play and run wild, and when she must be in her best behaviour. 

As to the underlined... well, that’s not exactly Ned’s whole thought process. I have a new copy of AGoT and it won’t allow me to copy+paste (I do hate Apple/iOS at times). But immediately following the paragraph you quoted, Ned is first amused by the fact that the sword has a name, and then he thinks and talks about Lyanna. You can feel how that saddens him, that she died so young...  and how much he loved his sister. His sister who he likens to Arya; his sister who would have wielded a sword, had their father allowed. And only then he decides that, if Arya is to wield a sword, she should learn the basics of sword fighting. 

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I would agree that in general it is not acceptable for Ladys to do male activities. We see that with Brienne's story. For her it was also a long road to have her father allow it and after that she gets constantly discriminated against.

It’s certainly not common, and frowned upon by society in general. As to it being “acceptable”, well, I suppose it will depend on who has to “accept” it or not. For instance, Ned is Lord of Winterfell, and Warden of the North (later he is also Hand of the King). If he “accepts” that his daughter learns how to use a sword, it doesn’t matter much whether society agrees w/ him or not. This society needs changes, and there will be changes. No, it won’t become a utopian society by the end of the story, but it will undergo significant changes. And I think changes pertaining to gender roles will be amomg the most significant ones. 

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Of course there are the Morment women, but there are an exception.

I love those she-bears!

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think it is generally not accepted, but if the father allows it the daughter can do it, but will be discriminated against. And imo Brienne is also only relatively safe, because she is so good at it. So no one can mess with her. But it is quite dangerous for a woman (because of the discrimination) and I think this is also a reason why good fathers don't want to allow it. 

What do you mean by “good” fathers? To me a good father is one who knows and understands and respects who his children are. So, I’d say a good father would try to encourage his kids to become all the can and want to become. Now, dutiful fathers might think differently.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What do you mean by “good” fathers? To me a good father is one who knows and understands and respects who his children are. So, I’d say a good father would try to encourage his kids to become all the can and want to become. Now, dutiful fathers might think differently.

That came across wrong ! What I actually meant, is that not all fathers, who don't want their daughters to fight must be like Tarly or stannis about it. I suggested, that they also could be concerned about safety, since there are men like Tarly out there, who think women like Brienne deserve to be raped.

But of course it's different if you serve under Robb  And I guess it's war after all! Its of course not save anyway!

I agree with your definition of a good father! I 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s certainly not common, and frowned upon by society in general. As to it being “acceptable”, well, I suppose it will depend on who has to “accept” it or not. For instance, Ned is Lord of Winterfell, and Warden of the North (later he is also Hand of the King). If he “accepts” that his daughter learns how to use a sword, it doesn’t matter much whether society agrees w/ him or not. This society needs changes, and there will be changes. No, it won’t become a utopian society by the end of the story, but it will undergo significant changes. And I think changes pertaining to gender roles will be amomg the most significant ones. 

Yes, I think I wrote that as well. It's fine if the father agrees, like so many things in this awful society.

Cant wait for the changes  

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, Cat and Ned talk about it being past time Arya learns how to behave more lady-like. But that doesn’t necessarily mean she can’t be a tomboy also. Meaning, it’s more about learning when it’s ok to play and run wild, and when she must be in her best behaviour. 

You are right. It's not really clear what she is supposed to and not supposed to do and when and when not. And what is play and what is fighting. Not even sure if Ned and Arya really know... which might be the problem.

But still his attitude towards her fighting is clear, when he sees Needle imo. And Cat and the Septa were even sterner about those things.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I kinda disagree, because Ned did take her to KL to make a Lady out of her. And she does get punished, when she is in WF and running away from "Lady-activities". Ned's first reaction, when he sees Needle is, he should break it to put an end to this nonsense. And she was not only playing, but playing sword fighting with Mycah.

“The septa is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.” “I don’t want to be a lady!” Arya flared. “I ought to snap this toy across my knee here and now, and put an end to this nonsense.”

Only when he sees that Arya won't give up, he stops being so hard on her and thinks to himself, if she is going to fight away, she is might as well learn how to do it right and than he talks about Lyanna etc. , but we don't actually see how Lyanna came to be able to fight.

I would agree that in general it is not acceptable for Ladys to do male activities. We see that with Brienne's story. For her it was also a long road to have her father allow it and after that she gets constantly discriminated against.

Of course there are the Morment women, but there are an exception.

I think it is generally not accepted, but if the father allows it the daughter can do it, but will be discriminated against. And imo Brienne is also only relatively safe, because she is so good at it. So no one can mess with her. But it is quite dangerous for a woman (because of the discrimination) and I think this is also a reason why good fathers don't want to allow it. 

 

Yes she gets punished in WF for running away from her needle work but she isn't punished for playing with the other kids or for doing male activities. She gets punished for not listening to her Septa, not for playing with small folk kids or for rough housing or whatever. 

Yes, Ned's first reaction is to break needle because he doesn't want her to partake in this sort of activity. Your father not wanting you to does not mean it never happens or that it is something just not done & ultimately he allowed her to keep it anyway. 

Right well it doesn't really matter how Lyanna learned how to fight for the purpose of this discussion. My point was only that she did learn. Because the poster I was talking to said it's something they aren't allowed to do. I agreed it's out of the norm but it is done sometimes & we have no evidence that they are punished for male activities specifically. Only for disobeying. 

Brienne is actually another point for the argument I'm making - that while she is discriminated against & ridiculed she is not punished by her father or by the crown. This kind of behavior from a woman is considered odd & even unacceptable to some but there is no hard fast rule against it that would mean Arya shouldn't have been playing with Micah or that she could or should be punished solely for engaging in what is widely considered to be male activity. 

At any rate, my whole point was that Arya engaging in male activities with small folk or another high born person is not something that is illegal or that can be attributed to Lady's death. 

I suppose we could say well if Arya hadn't been there the whole situation wouldn't have played out the way it did, which is true but it still doesn't lay the blame at her feet. If Sansa hadn't been present it likely wouldn't have played out the same either & if Joffrey hadn't been present it most certainly wouldn't have played out the same. People merely being present in a situation does not mean they hold the guilt for the situation. The only action of Arya's that was "punishable" was attacking the crown prince but this again had naught to do with Lady's death. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes she gets punished in WF for running away from her needle work but she isn't punished for playing with the other kids or for doing male activities. She gets punished for not listening to her Septa, not for playing with small folk kids or for rough housing or whatever. 

Yes, Ned's first reaction is to break needle because he doesn't want her to partake in this sort of activity. Your father not wanting you to does not mean it never happens or that it is something just not done & ultimately he allowed her to keep it anyway. 

Right well it doesn't really matter how Lyanna learned how to fight for the purpose of this discussion. My point was only that she did learn. Because the poster I was talking to said it's something they aren't allowed to do. I agreed it's out of the norm but it is done sometimes & we have no evidence that they are punished for male activities specifically. Only for disobeying. 

Brienne is actually another point for the argument I'm making - that while she is discriminated against & ridiculed she is not punished by her father or by the crown. This kind of behavior from a woman is considered odd & even unacceptable to some but there is no hard fast rule against it that would mean Arya shouldn't have been playing with Micah or that she could or should be punished solely for engaging in what is widely considered to be male activity. 

At any rate, my whole point was that Arya engaging in male activities with small folk or another high born person is not something that is illegal or that can be attributed to Lady's death. 

I suppose we could say well if Arya hadn't been there the whole situation wouldn't have played out the way it did, which is true but it still doesn't lay the blame at her feet. If Sansa hadn't been present it likely wouldn't have played out the same either & if Joffrey hadn't been present it most certainly wouldn't have played out the same. People merely being present in a situation does not mean they hold the guilt for the situation. The only action of Arya's that was "punishable" was attacking the crown prince but this again had naught to do with Lady's death. 

 

I think the poster wasn't really blaming Arya for Lady's death. But just pointing out the logic of some other ppl, when it comes to Sansa about Ned's death applying it to Arya. But I guess it doesn't quite work like that, since we don't have an explicit prohibition from Ned to Arya not to play sword fighting with the butchers boy. While it was quite clear, that Sansa should have keep their leaving a secret. So you probably can't really directly compare the two.

I guess I interpreted it a bit differently, but no matter what Arya should have been fighting, whether she was allowed to or not and she only attacked the prince to defend her friend. 

To me both girls aren't to blame for Lady's death! (that's not in direct response to you!!! )

Women are allowed to fight, when their fathers allow it, I guess. But even Brienne's dad didn't allow it to her right away. He tried to make a Lady out of her and marry her of. And wasn't there this guy, who told her he would regularly beat her, when there were married, until she behaved like a woman? *shudder* Hopefully it will really get a bit better for women at the end.

 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And wasn't there this guy, who told her he would regularly beat her, when there were married, until she behaved like a woman? *shudder* Hopefully it will really get a bit better for women at the end.

Yup. Poor sod, but Brienne “learned” him, as my dear husband would say!

AFfC, Brienne II

“Humfrey Wagstaff was his name; a proud old man of five-and-sixty, with a nose like a hawk and a spotted head. The day they were betrothed, he warned Brienne that he would expect her to be a proper woman once they’d wed. “I will not have my lady wife cavorting about in man’s mail. On this you shall obey me, lest I be forced to chastise you.”
She was sixteen and no stranger to a sword, but still shy despite her prowess in the yard. Yet somehow she had found the courage to tell Ser Humfrey that she would accept chastisement only from a man who could outfight her. The old knight purpled, but agreed to don his own armor to teach her a woman’s proper place. They fought with blunted tourney weapons, so Brienne’s mace had no spikes. She broke Ser Humfrey’s collarbone, two ribs, and their betrothal.”

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup. Poor sod, but Brienne “learned” him, as my dear husband would say!

AFfC, Brienne II

“Humfrey Wagstaff was his name; a proud old man of five-and-sixty, with a nose like a hawk and a spotted head. The day they were betrothed, he warned Brienne that he would expect her to be a proper woman once they’d wed. “I will not have my lady wife cavorting about in man’s mail. On this you shall obey me, lest I be forced to chastise you.”
She was sixteen and no stranger to a sword, but still shy despite her prowess in the yard. Yet somehow she had found the courage to tell Ser Humfrey that she would accept chastisement only from a man who could outfight her. The old knight purpled, but agreed to don his own armor to teach her a woman’s proper place. They fought with blunted tourney weapons, so Brienne’s mace had no spikes. She broke Ser Humfrey’s collarbone, two ribs, and their betrothal.”

She "learned" him well  I'll remember that phrase- but I fear it won't work for me, as a non native speaker

[Mystical]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely, but for you to take blame for a consequence there has to be some direct correlation between your action & said consequence right? Like, if I'm in a gas station buying some gum & the clerk gets robbed it doesn't mean it's my fault or that I shouldn't have been buying gum.

 

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I believe Arya was told to stay close so her running off to play is disobeying her father but still doesn't have any bearing on what happened to Lady or Micah. Again, if I'm stealing gum from the gas station & it gets robbed - even though I was doing something I wasn't supposed to - it is not my fault the gas station got robbed.

So you agree that Sansa then also doesn't share any blame in Ned's death? Because that is the only logical consequence of what you said here. If Arya involves an innocent in her selfish desires and something happens to them because of it, she is to blame. Just like Sansa gets blamed for Ned's death for something selfish she did. So I'm really wondering why so many people (not you) in this thread put the blame on Sansa then. They both disobeyed their father and people died (+ a direwolf).

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right I would assume not but attacking the crown prince does not = Lady having to die. If anything in that whole incident is to blame for Lady's death it would be Nymeria attacking Joffrey.

Nymeria can't attack Joffrey if first Arya doesn't disobey her father and goes off to play and involves Mycah in her shenanigans. If Arya had just been alone, swinging a stick around I doubt this would have happened. Because a peasant is an easy target for Joffrey, Arya is the daughter of the WotN.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've never said any such thing so I'm not sure what you are referring to here. 

Wasn't referring to you. But generally to some posters in this thread. Sorry if that wasn't clearer.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, societal norms are exactly that - norms. Which means while things may fall to the left & right of these things the majority fall within the norms. It Societal norms are not something that have to be obeyed nor are they typically punishable. 

In a monarchy or feudalism there are rules. Such as behaving yourself in a manner fit your station, especially when in the company of the royal family. And that goes doubly for physically attacking a member of said family.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Again, I've never said this & strongly disagree that Ned's death was Sansa's fault. If you think it is her fault, that's your opinion. 

I've already stated several times in this thread that it's not my opinion.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Arya running off (whether alone or with someone else) was disobeying her father. Not disobeying a rule or a law. Arya attacking Joffrey is probably punishable by law but thankfully Robert agreed it was just an altercation between two children. Explain to me how Arya attacking Joffrey = Lady's death?

One action leads to another and another. It's a domino effect. Everything started with Arya going off to play with Mycah. If that didn't happen or Arya was just off by herself, then Sansa/Joffrey probably just finish their stroll or they come across Arya and Joffrey makes fun of her. But I doubt he would attack her physically. And everything that follows wouldn't have happened and Lady and Mycah both still live. And I've already said I agree with you, kids went off playing. But people have been bringing up the Lady death = Sansa's fault nonsense again so I simply laid out how this ended up from my POV which is Sansa has the least responsibility. And Arya and others are more at fault than her.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, no, your measuring stick may be different for the two characters but mine is the same. I don't think Sansa is to blame for Ned's death but Arya has even less to do with Lady & Mycah's death. The blame for Ned's death lies with Joffrey & anyone else who was in cahoots with him. Lady's death lies with Ned, Robert, & Cersei. Mycah's death lies with the Hound & Cersei (assuming she gave that order)

No. My measuring stick starts at the root cause which in these two cases was children disobeying their father. And from then on I lay out a path of the domino effect. However there is a bigger picture around them which is why in the end I don't blame Sansa for Ned just like I don't blame Arya for Mycah/Lady. But people in this thread have different rules for different characters, specifically Arya and Ned. I never meant you, I was speaking generally. Just because I quoted you doesn't mean everything in my post was addressed at you, otherwise I would have used a lot more 'you'.

[Nagini's Neville]

28 minutes ago, Mystical said:

If Arya involves an innocent in her selfish desires and something happens to them because of it, she is to blame. Just like Sansa gets blamed for Ned's death for something selfish she did. So I'm really wondering why so many people (not you) in this thread put the blame on Sansa then. They both disobeyed their father and people died (+ a direwolf).

I guess Ned never had forbidden Arya explicitly, that she shouldn't pretend fight with the butchers boy is what @Lyanna<3Rhaegarare and @kissdbyfire are saying, if I understand them correctly.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So you agree that Sansa then also doesn't share any blame in Ned's death? Because that is the only logical consequence of what you said here. If Arya involves an innocent in her selfish desires and something happens to them because of it, she is to blame. Just like Sansa gets blamed for Ned's death for something selfish she did. So I'm really wondering why so many people (not you) in this thread put the blame on Sansa then. They both disobeyed their father and people died (+ a direwolf

Yes I absolutely agree that Sansa holds no blame for Ned's death. I've said that several times. 

I think the difference is in that Sansa telling Cersei of their plans to leave directly resulted in Cersei stopping them from leaving. Where as Arya running off to play did not directly result in the direwolfs death if that makes sense? 

Put another way there are scenarios in which Arya running off to play do not result in Lady's death. In fact, we know those exist because this was not the first time Arya had run off to fight with Micah. With Sansa, her telling Cersei of their plans is always going to result in Cersei trying to stop them from leaving. There is a more direct cause/reaction relationship. 

That being said Sansa 100 % does not hold any blame for Ned's death. She lived her father & would never, ever do anything to bring about his death. I'm only trying to contrast the two situations, not justify why people blame Sansa for Ned's death. 

25 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Nymeria can't attack Joffrey if first Arya doesn't disobey her father and goes off to play and involves Mycah in her shenanigans

Sure she can. There are any number of scenarios where Nymeria can attack Joffrey. Ones that don't involve Arya or Micah even being present. Arya sword practicing with Micah only happened to be the reason Joffrey decided to use that day to be a twat. 

28 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Arya had just been alone, swinging a stick around I doubt this would have happened. Because a peasant is an easy target for Joffrey, Arya is the daughter of the WotN

It may or may not have. Or it may not have happened that day & instead happened another day. Joffrey is a sadistic little shit & started the whole thing. That isn't Arya's fault. It could just as well have been just Micah there & Joffrey decided to pick on him because he can & one of the wolves bit him because of that. 

29 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Wasn't referring to you. But generally to some posters in this thread. Sorry if that wasn't clearer

No worries. I did think you were referring to me so sorry for any misunderstanding. 

30 minutes ago, Mystical said:

a monarchy or feudalism there are rules

There are rules in most societies. In fact, in every society that I'm aware of. 

31 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Such as behaving yourself in a manner fit your station, especially when in the company of the royal family

See this is where we are getting off course with each other. Yes, I agree you are expected to behave a certain way when you are a high born man or woman. Doubly so in the company of royal family. Expected to doesn't mean it's a rule though. It certainly isn't a law & it isn't punishable in Westeros. It may be looked down upon & snickered at but that's about as far as it goes. 

34 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And that goes doubly for physically attacking a member of said family

Right but that isn't a matter of merely not acting like a person of your station or gender. There are rules against attacking the royal family no matter if you are male, female, high born or low born. Legally, by Westerosi laws, Arya could have been punished for attacking the crown prince. I personally think he was a little snot that got what he deserved. 

38 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I've already stated several times in this thread that it's not my opinion

Yeah. So have I & it isn't mine either. 

39 minutes ago, Mystical said:

One action leads to another and another. It's a domino effect

 

39 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Everything started with Arya going off to play with Mycah. If that didn't happen or Arya was just off by herself, then Sansa/Joffrey probably just finish their stroll or they come across Arya and Joffrey makes fun of her.

I disagree but for the sake of argument if Arya is partially to blame for Lady's death for going off with Micah, then how is Sansa not to blame for taking a stroll with Joffrey? If she hadn't taken that stroll, they never would have come across Arya & Mycah & then none of this would have happened. 

Sansa isn't to blame because taking a stroll has no direct causation to Lady's death. Just like Arya isn't to blame because playing with the butchers boy has no direct causation to Lady's death. There are a million scenarios where Sansa goes for a stroll or Arya fights with Micah that do not end in Lady's death. The deciding factor here is Joffrey & his choices & actions. Had those things not happened Lady wouldn't have died & there aren't any other scenarios where Joffrey behaves the way he did during the altercation & afterwards when explaining what happened to his mother that do not result in Cersei ordering one of the wolves to be killed other than the wolves not existing at all or both girls throwing rocks at them to run them off & even that may not have always worked. 

Lady's death was a direct result of Joffrey & Cersei's actions. Not Arya's & not Sansa's. 

47 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But people have been bringing up the Lady death = Sansa's fault nonsense again so I simply laid out how this ended up from my POV which is Sansa has the least responsibility. And Arya and others are more at fault than her

I get it, people will always try to twist things against a character in this forum especially if they think said character has some loyal supporters. 

I just didn't understand why you quoted me when you were saying those things because I don't feel that way. I thought you were under the misunderstanding that I do feel that way.

I disagree about Arya being more at fault than Sansa though. While I don't think Lady's death is Sansa's fault, if we are putting them on a scale of most guilty to least I would put Sansa above Arya because Sansa could have told the truth. Yes she was in a very hard position & yes it may have turned out bad for her & yes I understand why she wanted to stay neutral but she did have that opportunity, however poor it was. Arya did tell the truth. She also wasn't put in the position Sansa was in so I understand it was easier for her. 

52 minutes ago, Mystical said:

No. My measuring stick starts at the root cause which in these two cases was children disobeying their father. And from then on I lay out a path of the domino effect. However there is a bigger picture around them which is why in the end I don't blame Sansa for Ned just like I don't blame Arya for Mycah/Lady. But people in this thread have different rules for different characters, specifically Arya and Ned. I never meant you, I was speaking generally. Just because I quoted you doesn't mean everything in my post was addressed at you, otherwise I would have used a lot more 'you'

Thanks for clearing that up. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I guess Ned never had forbidden Arya explicitly, that she shouldn't pretend fight with the butchers boy is what @Lyanna<3Rhaegarare and @kissdbyfire are saying, if I understand them correctly.

 

He didn't but he did (iirc) tell her to stay close & not run off - I could be misremembering that. More my point is there is no direct causation between Arya's actions & Lady's death. 

For example, if I slap you in the face - I'm absolutely wrong for that unless I'm defending myself right? If you then turn around & stab @Kissed By Fire to death because you are angry that I slapped you, the onus for that lies on you. Yes, I slapped you which made you angry but that is not a justifiable reason to stab someone else or me. Just because I did something wrong doesn't mean every thing that follows is a direct result of my actions. You may have gotten angry at any number of things & stabbed KBF. It just happened to be that particular time it was me slapping you. Does that make sense? 

[Nagini's Neville]

44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Put another way there are scenarios in which Arya running off to play do not result in Lady's death. In fact, we know those exist because this was not the first time Arya had run off to fight with Micah. With Sansa, her telling Cersei of their plans is always going to result in Cersei trying to stop them from leaving. There is a more direct cause/reaction relationship.

You don't know that! Cersei could have had one of her nice days!  Love your reverse logic and it's true  

 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For example, if I slap you in the face - I'm absolutely wrong for that unless I'm defending myself right? If you then turn around & stab @Kissed By Fire to death because you are angry that I slapped you, the onus for that lies on you. Yes, I slapped you which made you angry but that is not a justifiable reason to stab someone else or me. Just because I did something wrong doesn't mean every thing that follows is a direct result of my actions. You may have gotten angry at any number of things & stabbed KBF. It just happened to be that particular time it was me slapping you. Does that make sense? 

Love it, great way to explain your point! And hilarious, even if it ended w/ me getting stabbed to death!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You don't know that! Cersei could have had one of her nice days!  Love you reverse logic and it's true  

 

Haha yeah I suppose not & therein is why Sansa isn't to be blamed for what followed. While giving up the plans to Cersei are likely to result in Cersei acting it is ultimately Cersei's decision as to what to do with that information.