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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

Greywater-Watch

By Greywater-Watch,
in General (ASoIaF)

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Nagini's Neville Council Member

Nagini's Neville

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He didn't but he did (iirc) tell her to stay close & not run off - I could be misremembering that. More my point is there is no direct causation between Arya's actions & Lady's death. 

For example, if I slap you in the face - I'm absolutely wrong for that unless I'm defending myself right? If you then turn around & stab @Kissed By Fire to death because you are angry that I slapped you, the onus for that lies on you. Yes, I slapped you which made you angry but that is not a justifiable reason to stab someone else or me. Just because I did something wrong doesn't mean every thing that follows is a direct result of my actions. You may have gotten angry at any number of things & stabbed KBF. It just happened to be that particular time it was me slapping you. Does that make sense? 

First I wanna clear up, that I do NOT under no circumstances wanna stab you @Kissed By Fire  no matter how often @Lyanna<3Rhaegar will slap me :laugh: 

I'm way to afraid, that your husband will take his revenge and "learn" me!

This had me lying on the floor :laugh:

Maybe I'm a bit dense, but is Ned slapping Sansa in this scenario ? And she is than stabbing someone/telling Cersei ?

I can't apply that to Arya at all rn

I swear I DID understand the other example.

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Nagini's Neville Council Member

Nagini's Neville

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15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha yeah I suppose not & therein is why Sansa isn't to be blamed for what followed. While giving up the plans to Cersei are likely to result in Cersei acting it is ultimately Cersei's decision as to what to do with that information. 

Ahh!! Now I got it :laugh:! Sansa is slapping and Cersei is stabbing

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Lyanna<3Rhaegar Council Member

Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ahh!! Now I got it :laugh:! Sansa is slapping and Cersei is stabbing

Haha yeah! Or Arya is slapping Ned? (By disobeying him) & then Cersei is stabbing (killing Lady)

I've confused my self now. All I know is Sansa & Arya may have slapped but they never stabbed! Lol

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Nagini's Neville Council Member

Nagini's Neville

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17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha!! Of course @Nagini's Neville would never stab you & I would never slap her :) well, unless, she stabbed you... Then I might 

I already said I'd NEVER!!! Her husband remember! That's the only reason of course. Those blood-thirsty ASOIAF fans! I think it's really telling the kind of example you chose to make you point! Maybe we should be concerned about you stabbing us in the back, while @Kissed By Fire and I were just to busy slapping each other :laugh: 

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teej6 Council Member

teej6

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7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

You just made my point for me. What do you think the consequences for Arya would have been had Sansa testified truthfully, that Arya struck the Crown Prince with a weapon and that Arya's wolf attacked him (and drew blood)? We may think that Arya behaved admirably in standing up for the butcher's boy, but there's no way a monarchical society would see it that way. Certainly the actual monarch and his wife would not think that a mere butcher's boy had any reason or right to even defend himself against their son.

There good reason to believe that Sansa, by refusing to take either side, was attempting to protect her sister as much as to exonerate Joffrey.

This argument does not make sense as we know from the text that Arya already told all of what happened to Robert and the rest of the assembly.

Quote

The queen stepped forward. “You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher’s boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off.” “That’s not true,” Arya said loudly. “She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.” “Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.” “That’s not how it was,” Arya said, close to tears again. Ned put a hand on her shoulder. “Yes it is!” Prince Joffrey insisted. “They all attacked me, and she threw Lion’s Tooth in the river!” Ned noticed that he did not so much as glance at Arya as he spoke. “Liar!” Arya yelled. “Shut up!” the prince yelled back. “Enough!” the king roared, rising from his seat, his voice thick with irritation. Silence fell. He glowered at Arya through his thick beard. “Now, child, you will tell me what happened. Tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie to a king.” Then he looked over at his son. “When she is done, you will have your turn. Until then, hold your tongue.”

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. 

So Arya told her version of what transpired up until she threw Joffrey’s sword in the river, which is pretty much the end of the story. So unless you are stating Arya lied, Robert and everyone else in the hall heard and knew Arya’s version of events. Sansa telling the truth would have not put Arya in anymore trouble. Everyone knew she and Nymeria attacked Joffrey (he even had the scars to prove Nymeria bit him), the only point that was in dispute was how events transpired. Joffrey and Cersei stated that Arya, Mycah, and Nymeria were the aggressors whereas Arya claimed she attacked Joffrey to defend Mycah and Nymeria attacked Joffrey to defend Arya. Sansa not confirming Arya’s version of events just muddied the truth and Robert could not say whose version was the truth. Although in a later chapter Robert does admit to Ned that he knew Joffrey was lying. I’m not stating that had Sansa told the truth, Lady would have lived. We just don’t know — maybe Robert would have still acquiescent to Cersei’s demand or maybe Cersei and Joffrey being outed as liars in the whole assembly would have given Robert the ammunition to state his son was at fault and refuse to order Lady’s death. 

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Angel Eyes Council Member

Angel Eyes

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8 minutes ago, teej6 said:

This argument does not make sense as we know from the text that Arya already told all of what happened to Robert and the rest of the assembly.

So Arya told her version of what transpired up until she threw Joffrey’s sword in the river, which is pretty much the end of the story. So unless you are stating Arya lied, Robert and everyone else in the hall heard and knew Arya’s version of events. Sansa telling the truth would have not put Arya in anymore trouble. Everyone knew she and Nymeria attacked Joffrey (he even had the scars to prove Nymeria bit him), the only point that was in dispute was how events transpired. Joffrey and Cersei stated that Arya, Mycah, and Nymeria were the aggressors whereas Arya claimed she attacked Joffrey to defend Mycah and Nymeria attacked Joffrey to defend Arya. Sansa not confirming Arya’s version of events just muddied the truth and Robert could not say whose version was the truth. Although in a later chapter Robert does admit to Ned that he knew Joffrey was lying. I’m not stating that had Sansa told the truth, Lady would have lived. We just don’t know — maybe Robert would have still acquiescent to Cersei’s demand or maybe Cersei and Joffrey being outed as liars in the whole assembly would have given Robert the ammunition to state his son was at fault and refuse to order Lady’s death. 

Why did Arya throw Joffrey's sword in the river? That's evidence.

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teej6 Council Member

teej6

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think NLG's argument here was that it would have been better for Arya to be called a liar, than if Sansa had called Joffrey a liar and backed her up.

I agree it was hard for Sansa to call Joffrey a liar in such a public setting, but reading @The Ned's Little Girl comment “What do you think the consequences for Arya would have been had Sansa testified truthfully, that Aryastruck the Crown Prince with a weapon and that Arya's wolf attacked him (and drew blood)? “ I feel the poster is stating that had Sansa told the truth, Arya would have been in trouble for attacking Joffrey. I’m arguing that Arya had already stated to everyone that she and Nymeria attacked Joffrey so Sansa confirming Arya’s story, Arya is not going to be anymore trouble than she already is. 

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Lyanna<3Rhaegar Council Member

Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I already said I'd NEVER!!! Her husband remember! That's the only reason of course. Those blood-thirsty ASOIAF fans! I think it's really telling the kind of example you chose to make you point! Maybe we should be concerned about you stabbing us in the back, while @Kissed By Fire and I were just to busy slapping each other :laugh: 

Haha!! Fair enough! 

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You guys are cracking me up here! :lmao:

Me too! 

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Nagini's Neville Council Member

Nagini's Neville

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2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I agree it was hard for Sansa to call Joffrey a liar in such a public setting, but reading @The Ned's Little Girl comment “What do you think the consequences for Arya would have been had Sansa testified truthfully, that Aryastruck the Crown Prince with a weapon and that Arya's wolf attacked him (and drew blood)? “ I feel the poster is stating that had Sansa told the truth, Arya would have been in trouble for attacking Joffrey. I’m arguing that Arya had already stated to everyone that she and Nymeria attacked Joffrey so Sansa confirming Arya’s story, Arya is not going to be anymore trouble than she already is. 

Yep, missed that you are right. Especially because Joffrey had also said both attacked him. So no matter, who sansa would have agreed with "the wolf and girl attacked" 

 

 

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Arthur Peres Council Member

Arthur Peres

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23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But honestly you have a point! Just imagine Cersei sitting there "cloaked in Lady" *shudder* 

 yeah, that could have driven home a point! Would have been hard to overlook

yep, would be hard for Sansa to ignore Cersei sense of fashion...to said the least.

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