Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Arthur Peres]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Eek I would have cried! 

That would be the point.  

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Eek I would have cried! 

Me too  it would have been horrible!! That thread about the Ned-Sansa comparison is really insightful. Maybe we should have just read that! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Me too  it would have been horrible!! That thread about the Ned-Sansa comparison is really insightful. Maybe we should have just read that! 

I'll have to check it out

[Nagini's Neville]

One thing, that I've noticed is, that GRRM never really shows us how Joff charms Sansa, except when he "saves" her from Illyn Payne and a few words at the feast.

He only ever says Joff was so nice and charming, he sang, he gave her food bla bla 

While he shows us Joff's ugly side right from the beginning and continues to do so. He never just writes and then Joff was really mean..And he shows us from multiple povs. Saying everyone else knows how horrible Joff is.

There are books, in which the author lets the reader fall in love with a villain along side with another character. But GRRM deliberately doesn't do this here. He kind of only shows us his bad moments and everyone else, but not his good ones, except for one. While Sansa also only gets one really bad moment and other than that just good ones. In the eyes of the readers this makes her look stupid.

But in truth Sansa hated Joff after Lady, but then at the feast he charms her again. Okay it kinda doesn't help that "he looks to beautiful to hate" 

The OP @butterbumps! in the Sansa-Ned comparison thread proposed, that Sansa was set up as the antagonist on propose perhaps to subvert expectations later.

 

"It was a glorious day, a magical day. The air was warm and heavy with the scent of flowers, and the woods here had a gentle beauty that Sansa had never seen in the north. Prince Joffrey’s mount was a blood bay courser, swift as the wind, and he rode it with reckless abandon, so fast that Sansa was hard-pressed to keep up on her mare. It was a day for adventures. They explored the caves by the riverbank, and tracked a shadowcat to its lair, and when they grew hungry, Joffrey found a holdfast by its smoke and told them to fetch food and wine for their prince and his lady. They dined on trout fresh from the river, and Sansa drank more wine than she had ever drunk before. “My father only lets us have one cup, and only at feasts,” she confessed to her prince. “My betrothed can drink as much as she wants,” Joffrey said, refilling her cup. They went more slowly after they had eaten. Joffrey sang for her as they rode, his voice high and sweet and pure. Sansa was a little dizzy from the wine."

AGOT Sansa 1

"And Joffrey was the soul of courtesy. He talked to Sansa all night, showering her with compliments, making her laugh, sharing little bits of court gossip, explaining Moon Boy’s japes. Sansa was so captivated that she quite forgot all her courtesies and ignored Septa Mordane, seated to her left. All the while the courses came and went. A thick soup of barley and venison. Salads of sweetgrass and spinach and plums, sprinkled with crushed nuts. Snails in honey and garlic. Sansa had never eaten snails before; Joffrey showed her how to get the snail out of the shell, and fed her the first sweet morsel himself. Then came trout fresh from the river, baked in clay; her prince helped her crack open the hard casing to expose the flaky white flesh within. And when the meat course was brought out, he served her himself, slicing a queen’s portion from the joint, smiling as he laid it on her plate. She could see from the way he moved that his right arm was still troubling him, yet he uttered not a word of complaint."

AGOT Sansa 2

 

GRRM could have taken us through this afternoon (and not only the bad portion with Arya and Mycah) and evening, but he chose not to.

sorry, I kinda don't know, how to put those quotes into boxes

 

[Arthur Peres]

Sansa was just fantasizing a Joffrey that never existed. 

 

Quote

She had been looking forward to today for more than a week. It was a great honor to ride with the queen, and besides, Prince Joffrey might be there. Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sansa was just fantasizing a Joffrey that never existed. 

 

 

Sure this is pretty normal. Kid's crush. But if GRRM had showed us f.e. that "lovely" evening and afternoon, we could have decided for ourselves.

We do get to see his lovely side as well. Just not as much as her.

“Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady.”

“Leave her alone,” Joffrey said. He stood over her, beautiful in blue wool and black leather, his golden curls shining in the sun like a crown. He gave her his hand, drew her to her feet. “What is it, sweet lady? Why are you afraid? No one will hurt you. Put away your swords, all of you. The wolf is her little pet, that’s all.”

 

You should check out 

 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

Concerning the incident at the Trident, I am amazed about the energy that is invested in defending Sansa and putting blame on Arya and Ned. The point of this chapter (AGOT, Sansa 1) is, that Sansa is so blind and bad in her judgement for humans and so selfish that she ignores obvious signs of Joffrey's cruelty and cowardice, a very dangerous mixture.

Here the end of the chapter:

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His Shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you ... much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the Sword with both hands. Joffrey made a scared whimpery Sound ashe looked up at her. "No," he said, "don't hurt me. I'll tell my mother."

[…]

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey,", she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed his soft blond hair. His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, Nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

 

Now, I think Arya is completely right, when she calls her sister "You rotten!!" when Sansa claimed in front of the King, not to remember what had happened.

[Mystical]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

One thing, that I've noticed is, that GRRM never really shows us how Joff charms Sansa, except when he "saves" her from Illyn Payne and a few words at the feast. 

HEY! Don't you do Joffrey dirty. Sansa's father left her alone, with an alcoholic nun who ended up passed out after the tourney, in a world full of pedos (see LF feeling up Sansa and said nun doing nothing) and murderers in a completely strange city. And unlike Ned, Joffrey had an actual guard accompany Sansa back to the Keep. When bad, evil Joffrey shows more concern for Sansa's safety than Ned, you know parental fail has reached an all time high. Joffrey looks better than oh so beloved and can-do-no-wrong Ned.

9 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Concerning the incident at the Trident, I am amazed about the energy that is invested in defending Sansa and putting blame on Arya and Ned.

Maybe because Ned is the freaking parent who failed 100% in his parental duties? If a child ran off with another without telling anyone where they went, that child ended up pushing the other in the river and because they can't swim they drown. Whose fault is that? Of course it's the parents fault because they are supposed to watch their children.

And I don't remember anyone blaming Arya in this thread. And no one was defending Sansa, just talking about the logic some fans use. Might want to read what people wrote again.

[Nagini's Neville]

33 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Concerning the incident at the Trident, I am amazed about the energy that is invested in defending Sansa and putting blame on Arya and Ned. The point of this chapter (AGOT, Sansa 1) is, that Sansa is so blind and bad in her judgement for humans and so selfish that she ignores obvious signs of Joffrey's cruelty and cowardice, a very dangerous mixture.

Here the end of the chapter:

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His Shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you ... much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the Sword with both hands. Joffrey made a scared whimpery Sound ashe looked up at her. "No," he said, "don't hurt me. I'll tell my mother."

[…]

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey,", she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed his soft blond hair. His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, Nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

 

Now, I think Arya is completely right, when she calls her sister "You rotten!!" when Sansa claimed in front of the King, not to remember what had happened.

1. sure, but she still is to marry this monster, isn't she? This is the boy her father has betrothed her to, isn't he? And now that Ned knows the truth, he is also blind and bad in (her) judgement for humans and (so selfish) that (s)he ignores obvious signs

2. I never blamed Arya. I just pointed out, that Arya immediately interrupting and attacking her could have been a reason, why Ned didn't follow up, when he knew Sansa did not tell the truth. Because we were wondering, why ned didn't do that. don't blame her for attacking or calling her rotten

She was infatuated with Joff and she was also supposed to marry him, she did not want to see him as a monster, she has to live with him later. This is also something subconscious. 

Ned did know the truth and did not end the engagement, why do you think the engagement would have been broken, if Sansa told the truth publicly? She already did it in private. And Ned did not end the engagement.

What would have happened to Sansa, if she spoke out against Joffrey and than still had to marry him?

you should check out this, what @Elegant Woes original posted. This thread is excellent and the OP did a lot of work and put a lot of thought into it. check out @mambru posts they explain way better, what I'm trying to say here and the OP of course as well

 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

HEY! Don't you do Joffrey dirty. Sansa's father left her alone, with an alcoholic nun who ended up passed out after the tourney, in a world full of pedos (see LF feeling up Sansa and said nun doing nothing) and murderers in a completely strange city. And unlike Ned, Joffrey had an actual guard accompany Sansa back to the Keep. When bad, evil Joffrey shows more concern for Sansa's safety than Ned, you know parental fail has reached an all time high. Joffrey looks better than oh so beloved and can-do-no-wrong Ned.

Maybe because Ned is the freaking parent who failed 100% in his parental duties? If a child ran off with another without telling anyone where they went, that child ended up pushing the other in the river and because they can't swim they drown. Whose fault is that? Of course it's the parents fault because they are supposed to watch their children.

And I don't remember anyone blaming Arya in this thread. And no one was defending Sansa, just talking about the logic some fans use. Might want to read what people wrote again.

that's the funniest thing to me the "alcoholic nun"  couldn't agree more LOL Sansa even tried to politely wake her up by pushing against her, but she just keeps on snoring. Really helpful tz tz

 

[Greywater-Watch]

I found another passage (AGOT, Sansa 3) on the incident at the Trident, which reveals how rotten Sansa is in her mind. Arya and Sansa talk about Lord Beric's mission to hunt down Ser Gregor Clegane by orders of Ned Stark, at that moment Hand of the King:

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them." 'It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn Shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince." "Liar," Arya said.

And in contrast to Sansa, Arya feels guilty on what happened at the Trident (AGOT, Arya 2):

She thought of Mycah again and her eyes filled with Tears. Her fault, her fault, her fault. If she had never asked him to Play at swords with her...

[…] later with Ned in her room […]

Arya desperately wanted to explain, to make him see. "I asked Mycah to practice with me." The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. 'I asked him," she cried. "It was my fault, it was me..." Suddenly her father's arms were around her. He Held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. "No, sweet one," he murmured. "Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel Woman he serves."

 

I do not recall that Sansa ever blamed herself.

[Nagini's Neville]

28 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I found another passage (AGOT, Sansa 3) on the incident at the Trident, which reveals how rotten Sansa is in her mind. Arya and Sansa talk about Lord Beric's mission to hunt down Ser Gregor Clegane by orders of Ned Stark, at that moment Hand of the King:

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them." 'It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn Shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince." "Liar," Arya said.

And in contrast to Sansa, Arya feels guilty on what happened at the Trident (AGOT, Arya 2):

She thought of Mycah again and her eyes filled with Tears. Her fault, her fault, her fault. If she had never asked him to Play at swords with her...

[…] later with Ned in her room […]

Arya desperately wanted to explain, to make him see. "I asked Mycah to practice with me." The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. 'I asked him," she cried. "It was my fault, it was me..." Suddenly her father's arms were around her. He Held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. "No, sweet one," he murmured. "Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel Woman he serves."

 

I do not recall that Sansa ever blamed herself.

I thought you were only interested in consequences and who is responsible for what? Also you seemed to have already made up your mind, who the better person is for you. So don't think that will change with my or others opinion.

First you can't compare the grief of the two girls. Mycah was Arya's friend, while Sansa didn't even really know him. So it is easier to "forget" about him and push it all aside especially, because she feels guilty about it imo.

Sansa is someone who's feelings are very often subconscious. She is not aware of them and they are expressing themselves in weird ways. Again read @mambru's posts. She is expressing it perfectly.

Sansa says to Arya: "he attacked the prince", because she feels less guilty for his death, if she just pretends he really attacked the prince.

She later also "believes", that the Hound kissed her, even though he didn't. She also doesn't outright think "I'm attracted to the Hound"

And if you believe, the Unkiss is a reaction to trauma, that fits here as well. She is altering her memory/pretending to make a traumatic event more bearable 

 

[Elegant Woes]

It's most likely Sansa did rewrite the trident incident. After all she did misremember the name of Joffrey's sword. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

It's most likely Sansa did rewrite the trident incident. After all she did misremember the name of Joffrey's sword. 

wasn't that Arya? but agree

[Elegant Woes]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

wasn't that Arya? but agree

Technically it was Arya, because of the mistake George made in the text, but ultimately it was Sansa because Arya never does rewrite traumatic events like her. So far Sansa has rewritten three incidents:

Trident incident

Unkiss

Moon door situation. 

[redriver]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

HEY! Don't you do Joffrey dirty. Sansa's father left her alone, with an alcoholic nun who ended up passed out after the tourney, in a world full of pedos (see LF feeling up Sansa and said nun doing nothing) and murderers in a completely strange city. And unlike Ned, Joffrey had an actual guard accompany Sansa back to the Keep. When bad, evil Joffrey shows more concern for Sansa's safety than Ned, you know parental fail has reached an all time high. Joffrey looks better than oh so beloved and can-do-no-wrong Ned.

Maybe because Ned is the freaking parent who failed 100% in his parental duties? If a child ran off with another without telling anyone where they went, that child ended up pushing the other in the river and because they can't swim they drown. Whose fault is that? Of course it's the parents fault because they are supposed to watch their children.

And I don't remember anyone blaming Arya in this thread. And no one was defending Sansa, just talking about the logic some fans use. Might want to read what people wrote again.

So parents should literally watch their children 100 per cent of the time?

Do you think that really happens?Anywhere?Ever?

[Greywater-Watch]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I thought you were only interested in consequences and who is responsible for what? Also you seemed to have already made up your mind, who the better person is for you.

You are right, I let myself carry away with all these discussions of Sansa's behaviour being judged as disloyal or not. My main point, i.e. the consequences of Sansa spilling information of Ned's plan to ship the daughters back to Winterfell to Cersei, has been discussed in few answers only.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Technically it was Arya, because of the mistake George made in the text, but ultimately it was Sansa because Arya never does rewrite traumatic events like her. So far Sansa has rewritten three incidents:

Did George say he made a mistake in the text? Specifically that it was supposed to be Sansa who called the sword by the wrong name?

[Elegant Woes]

25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Did George say he made a mistake in the text? Specifically that it was supposed to be Sansa who called the sword by the wrong name?

Yes. He said that Sansa was the one who should remember it wrong. It was a foreshadowing towards the unkiss. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Yes. He said that Sansa was the one who should remember it wrong. It was a foreshadowing towards the unkiss. 

I see. I never knew that.