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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?


Greywater-Watch

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Also, on a general note, I could unfortunately say that Sansa's importance in the story is overestimated; say if Joffrey decided to execute her one day because he felt like it or Meryn Trant beat her to death, how different would the story be?

Sansa did have some small affect on the plot. Because she refused to leave with Sandor Sansa has indirectly saved Arya from being captured at the Red Wedding. Plus by saving Lancel she indirectly played a role in Jaime leaving Cersei. 

Granted it isn't much, but I hardly doubt George would waste 25 chapters on a character that won't have an impact in the end. She will have a big role to play in the Battle for Dawn. Primarily as the acting lady of Winterfell. 

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Sansa needed to keep her mouth shut.  We can all agree on that.  She acted selfishly because she wants Cersei to stop her father.  Ned should have handled it better but that doesn't remove the guilt from Sansa.  If Arya, whom I don't like, can keep her mouth closed so should Sansa.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm pointing out that incest isn't completely alien to the Starks; farther up the tree, two of Cregan Stark's sons married their nieces.

 

Also, on a general note, I could unfortunately say that Sansa's importance in the story is overestimated; say if Joffrey decided to execute her one day because he felt like it or Meryn Trant beat her to death, how different would the story be?

Yeah you are right but that is exactly, why I think she'll gain some importance. Because if she just dies now. What was her function in the story? Just subverting expectations? No matter what ppl are saying, I actually don't think GRRM works like that at all. That's also why I think Sandor will be back, because he didn't really have a big impact on the overall story yet.

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When it comes to Jon and Sansa we need to keep in mind that we haven't had seen any interaction between them on paper, and that seems like authorial intent rather than GRRM forgetting it. The question is why though? Why is there a gigantic black hole in the childhood interactions between Jon and Sansa? More importantly why doesn't Jon think about Sansa, even at times when he definitely should think of her? At first glance you would think it's an asshole move on Jon's part, but something is off about this. There's something GRRM is prohibiting us from figuring out about them.

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2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

When it comes to Jon and Sansa we need to keep in mind that we haven't had seen any interaction between them on paper, and that seems like a deliberate act on George's part rather than him forgetting it. The question is why though? Why is there a gigantic black hole in the childhood interactions between Jon and Sansa. More importantly why doesn't Jon think about Sansa, even at times when he definitely should think of her? At first glance you would think it's an asshole move on Jon's part, but something is off about this. There's something GRRM is prohibiting us from figuring out about them. 

He does think about her. Just not as often as he does about Robb, Bran, and Arya. And yes, there is a reason. They’re not close, never have been. 

ADwD, Jon XIII

“He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest.”

.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think the symbolic layer is there as part of a theme of shadows, and might-have-beens, and morrows-not-made. It might foreshadow something; if it does, it will probably be in an unexpected way.

However, back in 'reality', I believe both of them thought a great deal about the scene, recognised the might-have-been, and each reacted according to their character. Sansa (optimistically) re-imagines it as a romance. Sandor (darkly) re-imagines it as a rape.

I've no objection to SanSan if they both grow into decent people as seems possible, but this could also be a might-have-been, a romance that never happened except in songs. (See also, Jonsa.)

That's exactly what Targs do, unfortunately.

This thread is progressing faster than I can read it!, I'm nearly ten pages behind.

Imo the only meaning the symbolism could have is foreshadowing or even though it's sexual, it's kinda a symbolic wedding night, it in the end could mean something totally different that will happen in the future.

But I'm really uncomfortable with viewing the meaning of the symbolism as something that might have been. Since imo thats exactly the point, that under no circumstances it possibly could have been. He is a violent very traumatized man, that because of his trauma is unable to communicate with her properly and effectively and she, no matter how the westeros-world might already view her, is still very much to young for this to be anything that would be cool,(Even though girls as young as her are sometimes already being married) she did not even realize until later on, that he was attracted to her.

So whatever the symbolism means, it can only be a commentary on the future and be only intended for the reader. Everything else would be just too f ed up imo.

 

And what do you mean, he reimagined that scene as rape? I felt like he only allowed himself and Arya to finally face the truth. By admitting he took the song imo he just faced the reality of what he had truly done, what had truly happened.

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@kissdbyfire Just because they weren't close doesn't excuse Jon from not thinking of Sansa, especially when she's accused for commiting regicide and mysteriously disappears right after That. Any normal brother would be worried sick and yet Jon never does. What's even more damning is thar he thinks of Tyrion and why doesn't believe he killed Joffrey. If I didn't know any better I would think that Jon straight up hates Sansa, but we all know that isn't the case. In fact I would argue that Jon is the only person who likes Sansa just the way she is. Even Arya and Bran, who I know love her dearly, mock Sansa's love for songs and romanticism in their minds. Jon on the other hand is endeared by it. 

Quote

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he had dreamed of them last night. Sansa would have called this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonders of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.

Not only does Jon have a perfect grasp of how Sansa is like, he also fondly remembers her for it. Far cry from people who mock and belittle Sansa.

The fact that Jon has this very sweet view of Sansa, makes the fact he doesn't think of her even more weirder. What is keeping him from thinking of her? 

This may be an outrageous thought but I think Jon has non-sibling like feelings for Sansa. That could explain why he doesn't think of her. Jon is keeping himself from thinking of Sansa because the pain is too unbearable for him. It's either this or Jon is a really awful person. 

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2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

It's either this or Jon is cold and callous person.

Or it’s just that he does get her, thinks about her at times but not much b/c they’re not that close. 

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He does think about Sansa. I posted a quote, you posted another, for instance. At any rate, we’re derailing this thread. If you want, start another one and we’ll bring this discussion over there. 

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa did have some small affect on the plot. Because she refused to leave with Sandor Sansa has indirectly saved Arya from being captured at the Red Wedding. Plus by saving Lancel she indirectly played a role in Jaime leaving Cersei. 

Granted it isn't much, but I hardly doubt George would waste 25 chapters on a character that won't have an impact in the end. She will have a big role to play in the Battle for Dawn. Primarily as the acting lady of Winterfell. 

That's if he finishes it.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

He did with Catelyn.

The circumstances are kind of different. Catelyn is an adult character who is also a mother. In fantasy stories mentors and parents are always the first ones to die. Sansa on the other hand is on a clear Hero's journey. She also has a training arc along with her fellow siblings. Sansa has obviously a big role to play. Besides she's also one of the very few characters associated with Dawn, spring and restoration. That are clear signs she will survive till the end. 

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3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

The circumstances are kind of different. Catelyn is an adult character who is also a mother. In fantasy stories mentors and parents are always the first ones to die. Sansa on the other hand is on a clear Hero's journey. She also has a training arc along with her fellow siblings. Sansa has obviously a big role to play. Besides she's also one of the very few characters associated with Dawn, spring and restoration. That are clear signs she will survive till the end. 

True, but I just don't see any purpose with Lady Stoneheart.

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6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

GRRM said she'll be important

No doubt her role is to steer Arya away from the vengeful path. It will be a gut wretching moment for her, but necessary. I can see Arya giving her the mercy of a quick death after she had her revelation. 

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14 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Springwatch When does Sansa re-imagine it as a romance? Are you talking about her dream in second last chapter in A Storm of Swords? 

? Not the hopping into bed one (that was a dream certainly). It was 'he took a kiss and a song and left me with nothing etc etc'. Melodrama. High emotion. Life as a song.

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you referring to the fact that Jon is half Targ? I’d say that no, that’s not what Targs do. In their case there’s no heel turn where they suddenly decide that fucking their siblings might be a grand idea. That is the norm for Targs, they already grow up seeing incest as something that is totally normal and super fine. :ack:

Sexual maturity is always a bit of a heel turn, don't you think? And incest in the books is not done that realistically. There's too much of it.

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Imo the only meaning the symbolism could have is foreshadowing or even though it's sexual, it's kinda a symbolic wedding night, it in the end could mean something totally different that will happen in the future.

But I'm really uncomfortable with viewing the meaning of the symbolism as something that might have been. Since imo thats exactly the point, that under no circumstances it possibly could have been. He is a violent very traumatized man, that because of his trauma is unable to communicate with her properly and effectively and she, no matter how the westeros-world might already view her, is still very much to young for this to be anything that would be cool,(Even though girls as young as her are sometimes already being married) she did not even realize until later on, that he was attracted to her.

So whatever the symbolism means, it can only be a commentary on the future and be only intended for the reader. Everything else would be just too f ed up imo.

It was the soldier-rape scenario I was thinking as might-have-been, and for what it's worth, I don't think that was possible either, given this pair of characters.

There's a lot of realistic depth to characters in the books, but there's also a lot of crazy stuff. This seems strange to me. I'd like there to be a grand plan behind this, so I really want there to be meaning behind all these re-written histories. I think there could be a major role for story-tellers, creatives. Soft power.

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And what do you mean, he reimagined that scene as rape? I felt like he only allowed himself and Arya to finally face the truth. By admitting he took the song imo he just faced the reality of what he had truly done, what had truly happened.

What truly happened? He behaved like a brute as usual, then he left. He didn't injure her, but he has plenty to be ashamed of.

On top of that, he has had a lot of time to think about that scene (and obviously does judging by what he says to Arya). He broke into a maiden's bedchamber. He threw her down on the bed. He threatened her with a knife to get his way with her. It's incredibly rape-y. Sandor, (who does know what happens to maidens when a city is sacked), is not going to miss that.

I'm not sure if Sandor does or does not know that getting a song from a maiden has a double meaning, a sexy meaning. It appears he doesn't. It's a strange note of innocence in a very dark character. Anyway, it is a song and only a song he wants. But I do wonder very much if Sansa had given him 'Florian & Jonquil', would their destinies have been entirely different? Is that how the books work?

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16 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Some situations put people in having to decide between bad and worse.  I get that.  I've seen it happen to leaders.  The better ones find a way to minimize the damage to the most number of people.  Jon didn't do that.  What he was about to do would cause more damage than simply allowing Ramsay to do as he will with Arya. 

My issue with this is not that I think Jon's decision was in the best interest of the watch - I don't. But the way this is stated makes it sound like the options were either "allow Ramsay to do as he will with Arya" or March on WF. That wasn't the case. Ramsay didn't have Arya, Jon knew he didn't have her because the PL explicitly says so. So what Ramsay was or wasn't doing with Arya didn't even come into the equation other than possibly the thoughts of what Ramsay already  did to Arya could have been feeding Jon's anger. 

Really the choice was to march on WF or allow Ramsay to march on Castle Black. I think it was better for Jon, strategically, to march on WF & take Ramsay by surprise. However, depending on who wrote the PL & for what purpose it may not be a surprise at all & might be exactly what the writer wanted to goad Jon into. 

16 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's hard but that is the scene as created by George Martin.  You and me don't see the same Jon.  I get that.  Our opinion on this complex person differ.  I don't hold that against you.  It's just an opinion.  This is a forum for talking and expressing opinions. 

Absolutely & I appreciate everyone who will discuss differing opinions with me in a civil manner :)

16 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Putting people into "good" and "evil" slots can seem like a black-white broad categorization.  There is more nuance in these pages.  It's nice that we talk about the nuance.

Agreed. Black & White is boring. Nothing to discuss. It's either black or white. There is tons of nuance in these pages & that is what is interesting IMO.

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7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

There's a lot of realistic depth to characters in the books, but there's also a lot of crazy stuff. This seems strange to me. I'd like there to be a grand plan behind this, so I really want there to be meaning behind all these re-written histories. I think there could be a major role for story-tellers, creatives. Soft power.

:agree: so true and I agree with the "Lot of crazy stuff" part :) 

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9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What truly happened? He behaved like a brute as usual, then he left. He didn't injure her, but he has plenty to be ashamed of.

On top of that, he has had a lot of time to think about that scene (and obviously does judging by what he says to Arya). He broke into a maiden's bedchamber. He threw her down on the bed. He threatened her with a knife to get his way with her. It's incredibly rape-y. Sandor, (who does know what happens to maidens when a city is sacked), is not going to miss that.

I'm not sure if Sandor does or does not know that getting a song from a maiden has a double meaning, a sexy meaning. It appears he doesn't. It's a strange note of innocence in a very dark character. Anyway, it is a song and only a song he wants. But I do wonder very much if Sansa had given him 'Florian & Jonquil', would their destinies have been entirely different? Is that how the books work?

Ah okay. I see what you mean!

With "him admitting what truly happened" I just meant him admitting that he forced Sansa to sing the song. Since for a while he lied to her about that. It's also interesting so see how mean or angry he gets towards Arya after her reactions, as if she found a sore spot, which she probably did.

And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.” “You’re lying,” she said at once. “You don’t know half as much as you think you do. The Blackwater? Where in seven hells do you think we are? Where do you think we’re going?” (...) “Stupid blind little wolf bitch.” (also found it so mean, that he waited to long to tell Arya he wasn't bringing her back to the Lannisters and he kind of only does it here to illustrate to her "how stupid she is" to prove a point)

A Storm of Swords 

"You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.” “Did you hit her with an axe too?” “I hit you with the flat of the axe, you stupid little bitch. If I’d hit you with the blade there’d still be chunks of your head floating down the Green Fork. Now shut your bloody mouth. If I had any sense I’d give you to the silent sisters. They cut the tongues out of girls who talk too much.”

A Storm of Swords

If she had sang F&J could have been, that he would have just taken her with him.

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