Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[BlackLightning]

These are some really good conversations here.

But no, I don't think Sansa telling Cersei about Ned's plans to ship her and her sister back to Winterfell did much of anything. Cersei's plans were already in motion. Neither Arya nor Sansa were on the ship or heading to the ship at the time of Robert's death and the coup. The ship Ned wanted them to put them on (the Wind Witch) was supposed to go to Dragonstone first. So, in the end, Sansa and Arya would have become hostages of Stannis Baratheon. IF the Wind Witch went straight to White Harbor instead (thus disobeying direct orders from its employer), then the Stark girls would've made it to Winterfell just in time to see their home be invaded and captured by Theon.

And I think that we are all forgetting that Cersei likely already figured out Ned's plans concerning his daughters. It's not hard to imagine that maybe, just maybe Eddard Stark would want to make sure his daughters are far, far away from a all-but-guaranteed political crisis. This is the same man who angrily protested the assassination of a girl who is around the same age as Sansa.

It's all moot anyway. Arya V from A Game of Thrones clearly communicates the fact that the ship had been compromised. For quite some time.

It's not so simple as the two of them getting to leave the city and making their way back to Winterfell without so much as a hitch.

All of what Sansa's snitching did is endear herself to Cersei and reaffirm Cersei's belief that Sansa is worth keeping around (unlike Margaery) because she could prove herself to be a valuable pawn.

12 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

No doubt her role is to steer Arya away from the vengeful path. It will be a gut wretching moment for her, but necessary. I can see Arya giving her the mercy of a quick death after she had her revelation. 

I disagree.

While I do think Catelyn will die again (once and for all this time) and Arya might be the one to do i, I don't think Catelyn is dying before reuniting with Bran, Jon and Littlefinger. In fact, I think Lady Stoneheart is the ace in the hole when it comes to killing Littlefinger.

[Elegant Woes]

@Jabar of House Titan I don't see that happening, because the Lady Stoneheart is too deeply connected to Arya's arc. She's associated with themes that heavily occurs in what Arya deals with: justice, vengeance and mercy. Except they are consuming her. Lady Stoneheart is a cautionary tale for Arya. That is what Arya could become if she lets vengeance destroy her from the inside. She's meant to teach Arya that mercy is the answer not revenge. Plus Lady Stoneheart was indirectly created by Arya, so naturally it makes sense if she is the one to kill her by giving the mercy of quick death.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Plus Lady Stoneheart was indirectly created by Arya, so naturally it makes sense if she is the one to kill her by giving the mercy of quick death.

Not sure I follow... is it b/c Nymeria dragged Catelyn’s body out of the water?

[Elegant Woes]

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure I follow... is it b/c Nymeria dragged Catelyn’s body out of the water?

Yes. If Arya in Nymeria didn't pull her out of the water then Catelyn's body would have rot even further and made her rather unfit to be resurrected. Or at least that is how I see it.

[Nagini's Neville]

Also a big part of their story is revenge. LS can't come back from that. But Arya could.

I'm really not sure what will happen with LS, but it's one of the things I'm most looking forward to. Maybe there is something wrong with me and I really liked Cat, but I absolutely love LS or at least the idea of her

[Springwatch]

On 11/20/2019 at 9:58 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

But no, I don't think Sansa telling Cersei about Ned's plans to ship her and her sister back to Winterfell did much of anything. Cersei's plans were already in motion. Neither Arya nor Sansa were on the ship or heading to the ship at the time of Robert's death and the coup. The ship Ned wanted them to put them on (the Wind Witch) was supposed to go to Dragonstone first. So, in the end, Sansa and Arya would have become hostages of Stannis Baratheon. IF the Wind Witch went straight to White Harbor instead (thus disobeying direct orders from its employer), then the Stark girls would've made it to Winterfell just in time to see their home be invaded and captured by Theon.

And I think that we are all forgetting that Cersei likely already figured out Ned's plans concerning his daughters. It's not hard to imagine that maybe, just maybe Eddard Stark would want to make sure his daughters are far, far away from a all-but-guaranteed political crisis. This is the same man who angrily protested the assassination of a girl who is around the same age as Sansa.

It's all moot anyway. Arya V from A Game of Thrones clearly communicates the fact that the ship had been compromised. For quite some time.

It's not so simple as the two of them getting to leave the city and making their way back to Winterfell without so much as a hitch.

I agree with all this. I've been thinking about Sansa's possible influence on chances of escape, and all the bits of evidence we're given at the time push against Sansa being a factor. It's only people's accounts and recollections later that say she is.

There are two things Sansa might know, and might have told Cersei. The Wind Witch, and the dancing lesson. I said earlier that Cersei already had much better sources of information than Sansa, so it's not at all likely that Cersei was unaware of these two things, but it's interesting to check it out\

The Wind Witch. Ships are not easily made part of a secret; their cargoes are inspected, their past and future destinations are common knowledge on the docks, and the captain has no particular loyalty to the Starks. Probably he would be horrified to find himself on the losing side of a palace coup. And spies could find the ship without much effort.

In hindsight, a fast trading galley bound for White Harbour was a very obvious choice to take the Stark girls home, and anyway there is no sign of any attempt at secrecy in the arrangements. Arya finds a cart-load of their luggage in the stables: not just emergency hand-luggage, but large chests of fine court clothing. So, those chests had been coming out of the Tower of the Hand and entering the stables via an open courtyard watched from the walls (Littlefinger warned Ned of this long ago). It wasn't secret. Cersei knew.

The 'dancing' lesson. The lessons weren't secret either. Fencing with sticks is noisy, and the location was a dining hall with attached kitchens, adjacent to the Tower of the Hand. We know the kitchen staff weren't Starks, because they weren't slaughtered with all the rest (this plan has Cersei's signature all over it). And we have this quote on the kitchens:

Quote

 

"Varys," he said. "I need to bring Shae into the castle without Cersei becoming aware." Briefly, he sketched out his kitchen scheme.

When he was done, the eunuch made a little clucking sound. "I will do as my lord commands, of course... but I must warn you, the kitchens are full of eyes and ears...." [ACOK - TYRION X]

 

So, if you're looking for Arya, (1) check the Small Hall, it's one of her usual places. (2) Most likely one of those kitchen spies did their job and reported the lesson in progress. (3) Unless the hall is soundproofed, those clacking sticks would be heard by the red cloaks moving in on the Tower of the Hand.

No secrets in the Red Keep.

[BlackLightning]

On 11/20/2019 at 7:22 PM, Elegant Woes said:

@Jabar of House Titan I don't see that happening, because the Lady Stoneheart is too deeply connected to Arya's arc. She's associated with themes that heavily occurs in what Arya deals with: justice, vengeance and mercy. Except they are consuming her. Lady Stoneheart is a cautionary tale for Arya. That is what Arya could become if she lets vengeance destroy her from the inside. She's meant to teach Arya that mercy is the answer not revenge. Plus Lady Stoneheart was indirectly created by Arya, so naturally it makes sense if she is the one to kill her by giving the mercy of quick death.

If Lady Stoneheart's whole spiel is about revenge, why would she not cross paths with Baelish the man who not only contributed to the horrors suffered by both branches of her family but also profited off of their agony and heartache.

She's already reunited with Brienne and Jaime. Baelish and Bran (her favorite) are not out of the realm of possibility.

Neither is Jon; the two of them have always been frenemies and Jon thinks about her quite a lot in A Dance with Dragons. If Lady Stoneheart has Robb's crown and is roaming about the Riverlands looking for Arya, then it's not strange to come to the conclusion that Catelyn wants to crown Arya as Robb's successor, the Queen of the North and the Trident. If Jon becomes King anyways, Lady Stoneheart might have a problem.

And let's be real: she's heading north anyways. Why not? She should at least die knowing that her children are still alive and (relatively) well. Besides, the Boltons are in the North and she has not forgotten about the Boltons, believe me that.

I repeat: Lady Stoneheart has not forgotten about the Boltons.

Riverrun, the Freys and Arya have always been a priority, Brienne was a welcome surprise and Jaime is a pawn in a much larger game. I think Lady Stoneheart is going to be the mastermind of another Red Wedding-type of event but this time at Casterly Rock. But she is most assuredly planning on paying the Dreadfort a visit.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Lady Stoneheart's whole spiel is about revenge, why would she not cross paths with Baelish the man who not only contributed to the horrors suffered by both branches of her family but also profited off of their agony and heartache.

But Cat did never find out about this, did she?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

39 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But Cat did never find out about this, did she?

I don't think so. At least not alive. We haven't seen all of her adventures since she has become undead but we don't have any evidence that she heard any of this that I'm aware of. 

She could find out some of it though. For instance, I assume she will want to know about Sansa's where abouts (someone up thread said she was searching for Arya to presumably crown her. Why would she crown Arya when Sansa is alive? Because she is technically still married to Tyrion?) Anyway she may at some point find out Sansa is with Petyr but that in & of itself is no reason for her to be angry. Petyr would certainly tell her he has rescued Sansa from KL & has done everything in his power to keep her safe. Which is somewhat true I guess lol

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so. At least not alive. We haven't seen all of her adventures since she has become undead but we don't have any evidence that she heard any of this that I'm aware of. 

She could find out some of it though. For instance, I assume she will want to know about Sansa's where abouts (someone up thread said she was searching for Arya to presumably crown her. Why would she crown Arya when Sansa is alive? Because she is technically still married to Tyrion?) Anyway she may at some point find out Sansa is with Petyr but that in & of itself is no reason for her to be angry. Petyr would certainly tell her he has rescued Sansa from KL & has done everything in his power to keep her safe. Which is somewhat true I guess lol

It would be like Littlefinger to do something like that, tell a lie inside a truth.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

33 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It would be like Littlefinger to do something like that, tell a lie inside a truth.

For sure. That's why he is so good at it. 

[Elegant Woes]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure. That's why he is so good at it. 

If Sansa's identity was accidentally revealed in the Vale Littlefinger could easily say the same in order to earn the loyalty of the Vale Lords and Ladies. And the worst part about this he would win it. God I hate this man.

[Tyrion1991]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:35 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

When Sansa told Cersei in the first book about Ned's plan to ship his daughters to Winterfell (which I call a betrayal), well, it made her the most hated Stark for many readers. But what exactly have been the consequences of this behaviour? Or in other words, what would have happened, hadn't she told Cersei?

In my view it would have put Sansa and Arya to safety (so of course their course in the story would have been completely different. But would it have changed anything concerning Ned Stark or Rob's war?

I think there is a high probability that:

1.  Ned would have lost his life anyway.

2. It wouldn't have changed The outcome of Rob's war.

ad 1): Ned lost the game in King's Landing because he was betrayed by Littlefinger (the City Watch). His beheading was due to Jeoffrey's decision, and the Young King didn't care or understand the importance of hostages anyway.

ad 2): Rob would have gone to war anyway, his main reason was to free Ned. Whispering Wood happened independently of Sansa and Arya being hostages. He may have killed Jamie Lannister after the news of Ned's death. But Jamie didn't play much of a role in the war anymore after Whispering Woods. And I cannot see Tywin Lannister taking a different course of action with or without the Stark children hostages. Maybe Rob's position to negotiate a favourable agreement would have been better with Jamie as only valuable hostage in the hands of one of the confronting sides.

Thoughts on this?

 

I think George overestimated the level of forgiveness because she’s just a little girl who didn’t see the evil in her potential Mother in Law and wanted to be Queen. I think George wanted that to be a childish desire and “oh you should have listened to father.”. Which of course is meant to give the character room for growth.

The problem is its:

1) Incredibly stupid since the Lannister’s are blatantly evil and got her Direwolf killed. She has no valid reason to like or trust them. 

2) There’s an element of selfishness not present in Arya’s mistakes. She wants to be Queen. So she picks that over her fathers command. Very different from attacking Joffrey.

 

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I think George overestimated the level of forgiveness because she’s just a little girl who didn’t see the evil in her potential Mother in Law and wanted to be Queen. I think George wanted that to be a childish desire and “oh you should have listened to father.”. Which of course is meant to give the character room for growth.

The problem is its:

1) Incredibly stupid since the Lannister’s are blatantly evil and got her Direwolf killed. She has no valid reason to like or trust them. 

2) There’s an element of selfishness not present in Arya’s mistakes. She wants to be Queen. So she picks that over her fathers command. Very different from attacking Joffrey.

 

So did GRRM mess up?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

1) Incredibly stupid since the Lannister’s are blatantly evil and got her Direwolf killed. She has no valid reason to like or trust them. 

That's not so unreasonable or outlandish though is it? 

Children, often times, trust adults they shouldn't. They don't have the ability to reason the same way adults do nor do they have the same ability to think through what consequences their actions may have the same way adults do. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 11/26/2019 at 5:30 AM, Elegant Woes said:

If Sansa's identity was accidentally revealed in the Vale Littlefinger could easily say the same in order to earn the loyalty of the Vale Lords and Ladies. And the worst part about this he would win it. God I hate this man.

Me too. One thing the abomination did that I wouldn't mind seeing in the book is the throat slitting of Petyr via Arya. It would be cooler if Sansa did it though LOL 

[Nagini's Neville]

14 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I think George overestimated the level of forgiveness because she’s just a little girl who didn’t see the evil in her potential Mother in Law and wanted to be Queen. I think George wanted that to be a childish desire and “oh you should have listened to father.”. Which of course is meant to give the character room for growth.

The problem is its:

1) Incredibly stupid since the Lannister’s are blatantly evil and got her Direwolf killed. She has no valid reason to like or trust them. 

2) There’s an element of selfishness not present in Arya’s mistakes. She wants to be Queen. So she picks that over her fathers command. Very different from attacking Joffrey.

 

So a little 11 year old is not allowed to be bit selfish? This was her future after all, not just some crush. If this marriage won't work out, she might have been married to some gross older dude. It is normal for that time to be married of to men much older and not for love. Here she sees the potential for love, because she thinks of Joff as her fairytale prince (and he is beautiful and her age and seems to like her too) Sure she could have drawn different conclusions from the warning signs, but even Ned is unable to. This would be a match, that would make her happy and would bring her family honor. Her father has never said a negative word about Joffrey, not even after the Trident issue. So this is totally confusing for her and comes out of the blue. She doesn't know what is at stake, she has no possibility to know what is really going on, so why wouldn't she try to do anything to make her goal happen? For someone, who has so little influence over her life. What if her father decides to marry her of to someone like John Arryn next, because he is a "good man"? Not being able to get away from her fairytale vision of the world and draw conclusions from the warning signs and being selfish are flaws, but they are flaws that are just very realistic. Ppl and children that age are like that irl. So tbh it's her flaws that make her especially endearing to me. And being a bit selfish imo isn't a bad trait in a world in that you are treated like cattle as girl. She has to look out for herself, because she might not like the next man, her father or brother want her to marry and she has to stay with him and obey him forever. My question would rather be why it is so hard for some readers to see her perspective and to forgive an 11 year old girl, that never really wanted to cause any harm, especially, when they have no problems forgiving child murderers and ppl, who have done other horrible stuff.

GRRM did not think ppl would love the Hound or Jaime and he has stated many times that Tyrion is a villain. Imo his goal was always to create flawed and realistic characters, but he just didn't anticipate, that some readers would be so quick to forgive certain violent and immoral crimes, while on the other hand vilifying characters like Catelyn and Sansa for their very realistic and human flaws and mistakes.

[Elegant Woes]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too. One thing the abomination did that I wouldn't mind seeing in the book is the throat slitting of Petyr via Arya. It would be cooler if Sansa did it though LOL 

Personally I hated that. Though I like the idea of Arya being part of his trail. Part of the reason why Littlefinger was so successful is because he knew how to turn Lysa against Catelyn. It's possible he would try to do the same with Arya and Sansa, but the difference would be that they wouldn't fall for his tricks. He may have succeeded in tearing down the Tully sisters, but the Stark sisters? Think again. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Elegant Woes said:

Personally I hated that. Though I like the idea of Arya being part of his trail. Part of the reason why Littlefinger was so successful is because he knew how to turn Lysa against Catelyn. It's possible he would try to do the same with Arya and Sansa, but the difference would be that they wouldn't fall for his tricks. He may have succeeded in tearing down the Tully sisters, but the Stark sisters? Think again. 

Oh I agree. I didn't necessarily like the way it was done on that-which-must-not-be-named but I'm looking forward to Petyr's demise at hand of one of the Stark girls. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too. One thing the abomination did that I wouldn't mind seeing in the book is the throat slitting of Petyr via Arya. It would be cooler if Sansa did it though LOL 

I have this weird thing with LF, that I love and hate him at the same time. I also kinda liked Joffrey as a character. And even felt sorry for him. I don't know why. Sansa is my favorite- I should hate them. Joffrey always reminded me of dudley dursley somehow haha. 

And LF is just so scary, because I didn't see anything coming, that had to do with him. I actually really wish he wouldn't have started kissing Sansa against her will. It would have been so intriguing somehow, if she truly would have started trusting and liking him and learning from him and than at some point she would have found out, what he was truly like and about his crimes. But maybe there was never a chance at that anyway, since Sansa had noticed, that his eyes didn't smile, when his mouth did the first time she met him.

I also would absolutely love a LS -LF encounter - that would be so perfect, but somehow I doubt it will happen, just because it feels like a thing to wish for, just like the Hound killing Gregor, but it would be amazing.