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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

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"She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see …” “You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.” “Arya, stop it?!” Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. “Are you hurt?” he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear."

I feel like from the text it is pretty clear how torn Sansa feels. She doesn't want to betray her sister. she doesn't want to betray Joffrey. She doesn't want to speak out against either of them. And her answer does reflect that. She "doesn't remember" imo kind of means, she doesn't want to give an answer at all. She doesn't want to be in this situation.

She is under so much stress she is about to cry. After she says a few words Arya already attacks her and starts hitting her. Otherwise Ned maybe could have followed up with questions, but it is still no excuse for him imo. But maybe after that he wanted to spare her, because she didn't even seem to be able to listen to him anymore. Normally she would make a fuss for Arya hitting her, but she doesn't here- she doesn't even claim to be hurt. She is just pale and starring at her sister. She knows she fucked up. I do think she feels very guilty here, but she was in an impossible situation. 

And Arya getting always so angry and aggressive so quickly makes it "easier" to fight back against her and hate later. And blame her. Not that it makes it right, but it is easier to hate someone back, who passionately already hates you.

 

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17 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Actions have consequences right?

Absolutely, but for you to take blame for a consequence there has to be some direct correlation between your action & said consequence right? Like, if I'm in a gas station buying some gum & the clerk gets robbed it doesn't mean it's my fault or that I shouldn't have been buying gum.

 

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Highborn Ladies are I'm sure not to get involved with common folk like that. 

I don't think there are any rules against it. At least none that I know of. Some high born ladies would think they are too good to get involved with common folk surely & there are certainly others who would look down upon another high born person for doing so but I would highly doubt it's agains the law in anyway or we would have heard about it. Even if there is some "unspoken" rule regarding it, it would apply less to children. Arya has played with the commonfolk in Winterfell & no one has chastised or punished her for it. 

22 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Much less run off with them to play.

I believe Arya was told to stay close so her running off to play is disobeying her father but still doesn't have any bearing on what happened to Lady or Micah. Again, if I'm stealing gum from the gas station & it gets robbed - even though I was doing something I wasn't supposed to - it is not my fault the gas station got robbed. 

23 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Heck I think most of them are not to engage in male activities, like sword fighting, at all.

We know this isn't true. It's not common but it happens. Lyanna did the same things. Ned hires Arya a sword fighting instructor to teach her to sword fight. Do you think he would do that if that is something they were "not to do"? Some people will look down on it but it certainly isn't anything illegal or immoral & definitely nothing that leads to the death of a direwolf. 

25 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And I'm sure everyone in that world is not allowed to attack the crown prince.

Right I would assume not but attacking the crown prince does not = Lady having to die. If anything in that whole incident is to blame for Lady's death it would be Nymeria attacking Joffrey. 

33 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It's funny that Sansa running to Cersei absent the knowledge of what's going on in KL gets blamed for Ned's death.

I've never said any such thing so I'm not sure what you are referring to here. 

33 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But Arya 'just wanted to play with another child' so it's fine and she is blameless for Lady's death...because?

Because she just wanted to play with another child. Not liking the truth is not the same as it not being the truth. 

34 minutes ago, Mystical said:

There are societal norms in their world which people and children have to obey.

No, societal norms are exactly that - norms. Which means while things may fall to the left & right of these things the majority fall within the norms. It Societal norms are not something that have to be obeyed nor are they typically punishable. 

35 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Lady Sansa disobeyed her father which is against their society, it had bad consequences -> Ned's death Sansa's fault.

Again, I've never said this & strongly disagree that Ned's death was Sansa's fault. If you think it is her fault, that's your opinion. 

36 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Lady Arya running off with some commoner and play sword fighting and attacking Joffrey is against their societal norms and it has bad consequences -> Arya shares no blame for Lady's (or Mycah's) death.

Arya running off (whether alone or with someone else) was disobeying her father. Not disobeying a rule or a law. Arya attacking Joffrey is probably punishable by law but thankfully Robert agreed it was just an altercation between two children. Explain to me how Arya attacking Joffrey = Lady's death? 

38 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Both of them engaged in behavior not befitting their societal rules. In both cases someone died. Mind you this is not my opinion, as I agree with you about Arya just wanting to play with another child but she did attack Joffrey. And Sansa was absolutely self-serving when she ran to Cersie. But the measuring stick for both characters is different here it seems. Which makes sense how? If one blames Sansa for Ned's death, then Arya is to blame for Lady's (and Mycah's). Simple as that. Frankly that Sansa gets blamed as the main perpetrator for either Ned or Lady is nonsensical. While Ned and Arya and their actions are excused. One either uses the same measuring stick for all characters or simply admit to bias.

Well, no, your measuring stick may be different for the two characters but mine is the same. I don't think Sansa is to blame for Ned's death but Arya has even less to do with Lady & Mycah's death. The blame for Ned's death lies with Joffrey & anyone else who was in cahoots with him. Lady's death lies with Ned, Robert, & Cersei. Mycah's death lies with the Hound & Cersei (assuming she gave that order) 

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14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree, I was just mulling over what Ned could have done to make Sansa feel safe enough to tell the truth. 

imo he could have only made her feel safe, if he was able to break her infatuation and also tell her, she wasn't to marry Joffrey anymore. So it would have been basically an impossible task. In post #301 I addressed, what Ned's reasons could have been for not following up with Sansa, when she said she didn't know.

But we have to remember, that even after that Ned let her hang out with Joff at the feast after the tourney, where he was "lovely" to her again, only supervised by her Septa, who doesn't even make sure she gets home safely. 

So this whole time he doesn't give Sansa any signs, that he disapproves of joffrey. How should she grasp the magnitude of what Joffrey did, when she sees her father not being concerned about it.

Then her father just suddenly tells her, Joffrey is "no Prince Aemon, you, must believe me." And that's it. He owed Sansa at least the talk he gave Arya about sticking together and also taking about why he doesn't want her to marry Joffrey anymore. It is her future after all and to wipe that away with just one sentence...Of course he can't tell her the whole truth, so he should have pointed the problems about Joffrey out to her. The question is however, if Ned would have even ended the engagement, if it wasn't for the incest. 

Imo he just took her obedience for granted, while he always had to take care of Arya, because she was always acting out. He basically didn't worry to much about Sansa. Imo that's also why he asked her to speak out before the King. He just expected her to obey like always. And didn't consider the position he was putting her in. Imo he just didn't think to much about what was going on with her in general. Not in an ill-intentioned way, but he had a lot to do and she was always functioning and seemed happy, while Arya seemed unhappy about being a lady and wasn't functioning.

Arya wanted to fight and run around in comfortable clothes and play and be free- when that was taken away from her she rebelled and did it anyway.

What Ned didn't consider was that Arya's fighting etc. was Sansa's Being married to joffrey (being a fairytale queen) and that if he would take it away from her, without any explanation, she might rebel as well.

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50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Good oldie-ish one. And defo, Ned and Sansa are very alike.

And that's why I like them both :D was always my opinion Ned was just a "Little Sansa" himself 

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