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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Did George say he made a mistake in the text? Specifically that it was supposed to be Sansa who called the sword by the wrong name?

"The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

 

“That’s a lie!” Arya squirmed in Harwin’s grip. “It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion’s Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him.”

A Storm of Swords Arya 6

I don't know, if he intended for it to be Sansa, who misremembers the sword name, since she doesn't even have a scene anymore, where she talks/thinks about the incident (as far as I remember), but he certainly later thought it was Sansa or he just misspoke.

I think he just basically did that to establish the "Unreliable Narrator" in a small way. Ironically enough through Arya, who is not really ever a "liar", kinda showing all of our memories are faulty to a certain extent, I guess.

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7 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Technically it was Arya, because of the mistake George made in the text, but ultimately it was Sansa because Arya never does rewrite traumatic events like her. So far Sansa has rewritten three incidents:

Trident incident

Unkiss

Moon door situation. 

Wrong. Arya does rewrite traumatic events in her memory. She's done that at least twice:

The hearing about the Trident incident

Red Wedding and Sandor's role in it

A Storm of Swords, during Sandor's trial:

The big man shrugged. “I was Joffrey’s sworn shield. The butcher’s boy attacked a prince of the blood.”
“That’s a lie!” Arya squirmed in Harwin’s grip. “It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion’s Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him.”
“Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?” Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.
“I heard it from the royal lips. It’s not my place to question princes.” Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. “This one’s own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert.”
“Sansa’s just a liar,” Arya said, furious at her sister all over again. “It wasn’t like she said. It wasn’t.”

That's not what happened:

A Game of Thrones:
 

At that, the king stirred. “Quiet, woman,” he snapped. He straightened in his seat. “I am sorry, Ned. I never meant to frighten the girl. It seemed best to bring her here and get the business done with quickly.”
“And what business is that?” Ned put ice in his voice.
The queen stepped forward. “You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher’s boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off.”
“That’s not true,” Arya said loudly. “She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.”
“Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.”
“That’s not how it was,” Arya said, close to tears again. Ned put a hand on her shoulder.
“Yes it is!” Prince Joffrey insisted. “They all attacked me, and she threw Lion’s Tooth in the river!” Ned noticed that he did not so much as glance at Arya as he spoke.
“Liar!” Arya yelled.
“Shut up!” the prince yelled back.
“Enough!” the king roared, rising from his seat, his voice thick with irritation. Silence fell. He glowered at Arya through his thick beard. “Now, child, you will tell me what happened. Tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie to a king.” Then he looked over at his son. “When she is done, you will have your turn. Until then, hold your tongue.”
As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”
Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.
Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”
“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”
His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see…”
“You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.”

In this case, Sandor was the first to claim that Sansa said at the hearing that Mycah attacked Joffrey, which is not true. Now, he was not at the hearing - he was in the process of hunting Mycah, which Cersei had odered him to do way before the hearing even happened. So, Sandor could have been lying or having a faulty memory, or repeating what he had been told by Joffrey or Cersei or someone else after the hearing had happened, assuming they lied about what was said - if he or someone else actually asked them about it. Or maybe he imagined it because he was trying to make himself feel better about it - in either case, it's obvious that Cersei didn't give a damn about whether Mycah attacked Joffrey together with Arya or if it was just Arya and Nymeria. 

But Arya still heard Sandor say that and didn't correct him, which she should and could have done if she remembered what Sansa had actually said at the hearing.

Now, what probably happened is that Arya confused the hearing with her later fight with Sansa (also in A Game of Thrones):

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. “Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.”
“It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”
“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

At this point, Sansa seems to have rewritten the events in her mind to make Joffrey look better (but later in ASOS, when she talked to Olenna and the other Tyrells, she remembered everything correctly), and Arya again called her a liar, so she mixed it up with the hearing, where Sansa claimed she did not remember what happened, instead of supporting either story.

The other instance is maybe less of a wrong memory as a bizarre reinterpretation of what happened at the Red Wedding:

A Feast for Crows:

The wolf dreams were the good ones. In the wolf dreams she was swift and strong, running down her prey with her pack at her heels. It was the other dream she hated, the one where she had two feet instead of four. In that one she was always looking for her mother, stumbling
through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog’s head would not let her go save her. In that dream she was always weeping, like a frightened little girl. Cats never weep, she told herself, no more than wolves do. It’s just a stupid dream.

Arya has somehow convinced herself in her mind that Sandor saving her life at the Red Wedding by stopping her from running into the Twins, was him being an evil monster and preventing her from saving her mother. (Yes, Arya, you totally could have saved her from dozens of Freys, This is a thing that really makes sense....)
 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Annara Snow - I have to go to lunch but just wanted to say HI! Haven't seen you around in a while :)

Hi. I haven't posted in the general forum for a long time. I haven't had the time to hang out much on the forum at all lately, and it's mostly been Games or a little bit in the Entertainment subforum.

Edited by Annara Snow

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20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Wrong. Arya does rewrite traumatic events in her memory. She's done that at least twice:

The hearing about the Trident incident

Red Wedding and Sandor's role in it

A Storm of Swords, during Sandor's trial:

The big man shrugged. “I was Joffrey’s sworn shield. The butcher’s boy attacked a prince of the blood.”
“That’s a lie!” Arya squirmed in Harwin’s grip. “It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion’s Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him.”
“Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?” Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.
“I heard it from the royal lips. It’s not my place to question princes.” Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. “This one’s own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert.”
“Sansa’s just a liar,” Arya said, furious at her sister all over again. “It wasn’t like she said. It wasn’t.”

That's not what happened:

A Game of Thrones:
 

At that, the king stirred. “Quiet, woman,” he snapped. He straightened in his seat. “I am sorry, Ned. I never meant to frighten the girl. It seemed best to bring her here and get the business done with quickly.”
“And what business is that?” Ned put ice in his voice.
The queen stepped forward. “You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher’s boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off.”
“That’s not true,” Arya said loudly. “She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.”
“Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.”
“That’s not how it was,” Arya said, close to tears again. Ned put a hand on her shoulder.
“Yes it is!” Prince Joffrey insisted. “They all attacked me, and she threw Lion’s Tooth in the river!” Ned noticed that he did not so much as glance at Arya as he spoke.
“Liar!” Arya yelled.
“Shut up!” the prince yelled back.
“Enough!” the king roared, rising from his seat, his voice thick with irritation. Silence fell. He glowered at Arya through his thick beard. “Now, child, you will tell me what happened. Tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie to a king.” Then he looked over at his son. “When she is done, you will have your turn. Until then, hold your tongue.”
As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”
Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.
Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”
“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”
His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see…”
“You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.”

In this case, Sandor was the first to claim that Sansa said at the hearing that Mycah attacked Joffrey, which is not true. Now, he was not at the hearing - he was in the process of hunting Mycah, which Cersei had odered him to do way before the hearing even happened. So, Sandor could have been lying or having a faulty memory, or repeating what he had been told by Joffrey or Cersei or someone else after the hearing had happened, assuming they lied about what was said - if he or someone else actually asked them about it. Or maybe he imagined it because he was trying to make himself feel better about it - in either case, it's obvious that Cersei didn't give a damn about whether Mycah attacked Joffrey together with Arya or if it was just Arya and Nymeria. 

But Arya still heard Sandor say that and didn't correct him, which she should and could have done if she remembered what Sansa had actually said at the hearing.

Now, what probably happened is that Arya confused the hearing with her later fight with Sansa (also in A Game of Thrones):

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. “Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.”
“It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”
“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

At this point, Sansa seems to have rewritten the events in her mind to make Joffrey look better (but later in ASOS, when she talked to Olenna and the other Tyrells, she remembered everything correctly), and Arya again called her a liar, so she mixed it up with the hearing, where Sansa claimed she did not remember what happened, instead of supporting either story.

The other instance is maybe less of a wrong memory as a bizarre reinterpretation of what happened at the Red Wedding:

A Feast for Crows:

The wolf dreams were the good ones. In the wolf dreams she was swift and strong, running down her prey with her pack at her heels. It was the other dream she hated, the one where she had two feet instead of four. In that one she was always looking for her mother, stumbling
through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog’s head would not let her go save her. In that dream she was always weeping, like a frightened little girl. Cats never weep, she told herself, no more than wolves do. It’s just a stupid dream.

Arya has somehow convinced herself in her mind that Sandor saving her life at the Red Wedding by stopping her from running into the Twins, was him being an evil monster and preventing her from saving her mother. (Yes, Arya, you totally could have saved her from dozens of Freys, This is a thing that really makes sense....)
 

Wow, this is great! You're absolutely right. When you think about it, it is a very human thing to do. I'm sure we are all doing it. In general human memories are very faulty in general. There are a lot of studies that support the theory, that our brain tends to fill in the gaps in our memory automatically and subconsciously. You can see that in witness account studies especially.

It also shows how my bias towards certain characters will influences me. I always view Arya as one of the most honest characters- so "she wouldn't do that":laugh: 

I'm also glad you stopped by - I'm a fan of yours :) 

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9 hours ago, redriver said:

So parents should literally watch their children 100 per cent of the time?

Do you think that really happens?Anywhere?Ever?

Parents are responsible for their children. So are kindergarten and school teachers. There are laws about that in case you aren't aware. No one said children have to be watched 24/7. Fact remains that children are to be taken care of and protected by their parents. But that's not really the issue here as this doesn't take place in our modern times.

Fact is that Sansa and Arya are both highborn Ladies. While in WF you can let them roam free because they are protected, you can't do that while on the road or in a strange, big city. Someone could kidnap them. Someone could rape them. Sansa especially has to deal with anything with a penis between the ages of 10-100 (being hyperbolic here) wanting to rape her. Ned should be freaking aware of this fact if for no other reason than the prevailing story is that his sister was raped by Rhaegar. And Lyanna was only a few years older than Sansa. There is no way he doesn't know how their world operates when it comes to women. And Ned doesn't have to watch the girls personally, he took people and guards with them when leaving WF.

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Wow, this is great! You're absolutely right. When you think about it, it is a very human thing to do. I'm sure we are all doing it. In general human memories are very faulty in general. There are a lot of studies that support the theory, that our brain tends to fill in the gaps in our memory automatically and subconsciously. You can see that in witness account studies especially.

It also shows how my bias towards certain characters will influences me. I always view Arya as one of the most honest characters- so "she wouldn't do that":laugh: 

I'm also glad you stopped by - I'm a fan of yours :) 

Isn't it interesting the way our minds work? I experienced this first hand one time. Without boring you with all the details, there was a rather traumatic event that occurred at a birthday party we were having. There were 25+ people there, all whom I know, trust, & who are generally honest people. Over the course of the next few days I discussed this event with several of the people who were there & witnessed the event. It was literally amazing to hear all the different versions of what exactly happened coming from people who all witnessed the same event. They had no motive to lie & neither did I but there were many, many details that we remembered differently from one another. I couldn't understand it at all! I knew I remembered it a specific way! I started looking into it & found it isn't rare at all for this to occur. Our minds are such amazing things. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who is a troll? 

I never really understand the troll thing. It is bad, but than it is good sometime or funny or ironic ?:laugh: I'm lost. But I guess I should just google it.

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14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I never really understand the troll thing. It is bad, but than it is good sometime or funny or ironic ?:laugh: I'm lost. But I guess I should just google it.

Haha! Yeah so a troll is someone who says inflammatory or ridiculous things for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of someone. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Isn't it interesting the way our minds work? I experienced this first hand one time. Without boring you with all the details, there was a rather traumatic event that occurred at a birthday party we were having. There were 25+ people there, all whom I know, trust, & who are generally honest people. Over the course of the next few days I discussed this event with several of the people who were there & witnessed the event. It was literally amazing to hear all the different versions of what exactly happened coming from people who all witnessed the same event. They had no motive to lie & neither did I but there were many, many details that we remembered differently from one another. I couldn't understand it at all! I knew I remembered it a specific way! I started looking into it & found it isn't rare at all for this to occur. Our minds are such amazing things. 

Totally. The absolutely craziest and illogical things are possible sometime. And lot of it can seem very contradictory.

Our brains were first and foremost designed to keep us alive, and to achieve that it does a lot of crazy things, if we keep that in mind a lot of it makes more sense. :) 

What isn't so great is, that we have a very well adapted brain for the past, but in certain aspects not that well adapted for today. That's why f.e. we all have this irrational big fear of rejection -that is really not doing us any good at all. We would be so much more successful, if rejection didn't feel so horribly painful. But in the past being rejected equaled death, because we couldn't survive alone.

The same why we are so quick to judge and why it is so hard for us to see ppl in a nuanced and complex way and allow for "greyness" to exist. Even if we really analyze ppl and acknowledge their good and their bad traits/sides, we tend to still either decide, if the good traits outweigh the bad or vice versa - (nowhere can we see that better then in asoiaf discussions :laugh:) and therefore decide, whether they are a  good or a bad person for us. Having to sit between the stools is incredibly uncomfortable for us and energy consuming, because our brains want to categorize everything, because we needed that in the past to decide quickly: danger- no danger. A nuanced analyze would have likely meant death in a lot of situations.

And memory is in general one of the most fascinating subjects imho. Fact is everyones memory is very faulty and subjective :) 

I once had a biking accident. Something got caught in my front wheel and fell head first onto the street. Even though I never was unconscious and even apparently talked in a normal way to my friend, who was accompanying me to the hospital, I can't remember anything anymore except for the vivid image of the blood dropping from my head onto the street. 

But maybe, that's not a good example, since it was a head injury after all- but at least I somehow managed to not even get a concussion - just a wound and a very swollen forehead and face until forever :laugh: - so it wasn't even that bad. But high levels of adrenaline also make you not remember and then the brain sometimes "fixes" that later for you. 

 

Man, that birthday party-thing sounds very stressful and overwhelming and traumatic - hopefully everything worked out as best as it possibly could!!!<3 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Yeah so a troll is someone who says inflammatory or ridiculous things for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of someone. 

haha okay thanks! Than it's really a very specific expression, that's worth knowing :D Merci

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

haha okay thanks! Than it's really a very specific expression, that's worth knowing :D Merci

To make it more confusing, the usage is evolving.

One thing to be aware of is that it's increasingly being used as an ad hominem attack when someone says something true but not welcome. For example, HBO called GoT fans trolls for criticizing the show to avoid addressing very legitimate complaints.

I only extend the term troll to those who knowingly mischaracterize, say something untrue, or say something irrelevant to be inflammatory because I don't think people who are being sincere and truthful should be insulted with name-calling, even if the truth is inflammatory to some.

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7 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Hi. I haven't posted in the general forum for a long time. I haven't had the time to hang out much on the forum at all lately, and it's mostly been Games or a little bit in the Entertainment subforum.

Well, I'm glad you stopped by. Any good games going on?

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Totally. The absolutely craziest and illogical things are possible sometime. And lot of it can seem very contradictory.

Our brains were first and foremost designed to keep us alive, and to achieve that it does a lot of crazy things, if we keep that in mind a lot of it makes more sense. :) 

What isn't so great is, that we have a very well adapted brain for the past, but in certain aspects not that well adapted for today. That's why f.e. we all have this irrational big fear of rejection -that is really not doing us any good at all. We would be so much more successful, if rejection didn't feel so horribly painful. But in the past being rejected equaled death, because we couldn't survive alone.

The same why we are so quick to judge and why it is so hard for us to see ppl in a nuanced and complex way and allow for "greyness" to exist. Even if we really analyze ppl and acknowledge their good and their bad traits/sides, we tend to still either decide, if the good traits outweigh the bad or vice versa - (nowhere can we see that better then in asoiaf discussions :laugh:) and therefore decide, whether they are a  good or a bad person for us. Having to sit between the stools is incredibly uncomfortable for us and energy consuming, because our brains want to categorize everything, because we needed that in the past to decide quickly: danger- no danger. A nuanced analyze would have likely meant death in a lot of situations.

And memory is in general one of the most fascinating subjects imho. Fact is everyones memory is very faulty and subjective :) 

I once had a biking accident. Something got caught in my front wheel and fell head first onto the street. Even though I never was unconscious and even apparently talked in a normal way to my friend, who was accompanying me to the hospital, I can't remember anything anymore except for the vivid image of the blood dropping from my head onto the street. 

But maybe, that's not a good example, since it was a head injury after all- but at least I somehow managed to not even get a concussion - just a wound and a very swollen forehead and face until forever :laugh: - so it wasn't even that bad. But high levels of adrenaline also make you not remember and then the brain sometimes "fixes" that later for you. 

 

Man, that birthday party-thing sounds very stressful and overwhelming and traumatic - hopefully everything worked out as best as it possibly could!!!<3 

 

That is some very interesting stuff! It all makes sense though. Maybe one day we will evolve & be able to let go of some of that stuff. 

Thank you for your concern over the birthday party. Everything turned out ok :)

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That is some very interesting stuff! It all makes sense though. Maybe one day we will evolve & be able to let go of some of that stuff. 

Thank you for your concern over the birthday party. Everything turned out ok :)

We are creatures of the evolution after all, who knows what will happen :D 

Guess the question rn is probably more for how long we'll still have a place to develop on :( 

Glad that everything turned out okay!! 

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Parents are responsible for their children. So are kindergarten and school teachers. There are laws about that in case you aren't aware. No one said children have to be watched 24/7. Fact remains that children are to be taken care of and protected by their parents. But that's not really the issue here as this doesn't take place in our modern times.

Fact is that Sansa and Arya are both highborn Ladies. While in WF you can let them roam free because they are protected, you can't do that while on the road or in a strange, big city. Someone could kidnap them. Someone could rape them. Sansa especially has to deal with anything with a penis between the ages of 10-100 (being hyperbolic here) wanting to rape her. Ned should be freaking aware of this fact if for no other reason than the prevailing story is that his sister was raped by Rhaegar. And Lyanna was only a few years older than Sansa. There is no way he doesn't know how their world operates when it comes to women. And Ned doesn't have to watch 

So,if yo input several smiley faces into. your post,does it make you a nice guy?,

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9 hours ago, redriver said:

So,if yo input several smiley faces into. your post,does it make you a nice guy?,

What is your deal? You are posting things just to try to cause an issue but calling someone else a troll? Grow up. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, move on. 

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