Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Lady Dacey]

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

 Gentle Mother, font of mercy, save our sons from war, we pray, stay the swords and stay the arrows, let them know a better day. Gentle Mother, strength of women, help our daughters through this fray, soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way.

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking. Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

This exchange is so rich, we could write numerous essays about it. Allow me to emphasise different parts and bring some more to the table.

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Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

”Gentle Mother, font of mercy, save our sons from war, we pray, stay the swords and stay the arrows, let them know a better day. Gentle Mother, strength of women, help our daughters through this fray, soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way.”

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking. Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

 

Now, there is something I want to make clear before I start my ‘analysis’: I do not think the story the author is telling us is reasonable or healthy in any way. I do not personally approve or condone the “developing feelings for your abuser” storyline. But, and there is a but, it is something that happens in the real world and I believe GRRM is depicting it. More than that, on a more abstract, literary level, it could be seen as a fable, a story of conflicting feelings about one’s sexual awakening. It’s scary. It’s not all pleasant and comfortable. It is what makes us transition from children to adults.

This passage does hint that Sansa, even though she is scared and afraid, presents herself complacent to the Hound. Now, I must remind us all that these books were written by a middle aged white man, so yeah, as a woman, I would never have written a passage such as this with any hint of a positive light - but the author does, it’s undeniable.

Sansa sings, and literally disarms the Hound with her kindness. He withdraws his dagger and his voice becomes “raw”. The fact that “some instinct” makes her reach out for him is very, very important. Her action contradicts everything she has been telling us with her words so far (that she wants nothing more than for Sandor to leave). She is scared, but she is also drawn to him. The passage is full of literary symbols for sexual desire and romance. We must take this in the context that Sansa has recently had her menarche, making her a woman in her world and in her own head, and also changing her relationship with her own body and her desires. Hormones after all. Her previous chapters are full of coming of age symbols, but when she does get her period for the first time she is scared, desperate and frantic about hiding it. She knows it means she can be married to Joffrey as of that moment, but it’s bigger than that. Growing up is hard (and that is a theme in ASOIAF). When Sansa cups Sandor’s face she feels blood, but also a wetness that isn’t blood. This interaction is a lot like the sword fight between Jaime and Brienne in that it’s described as if it’s a sex scene. Sandor points his dagger at her, and she becomes bloody and wet by metaphorically embracing him. She is aroused by him. I’m not saying she is aroused then and there, please, don’t twist my words. She is scared and afraid and vulnerable. But the wording GRRM went for is no coincidence, it illustrates the effect Sandor has/will have on Sansa. Of course the wetness is tears, but I’ve learned there are many many layers of meaning in ASOIAF and they are in no way mutually exclusive. Why the hell does Sansa sleep on the floor under his (white, bloody) cloak? “She was cold” is the rationalisation we are offered on text, but come on, her bed and blankets were all right there. Choosing to be under his cloak is very symbolic (it’s marriage symbolism) and the bloody white fabric brings up a ‘nuptial night’ element to it. After the whole ordeal she is left shivering.

Sansa is coming to terms with her womanhood. When she sings for the mother she asks for Sandor to know a better day (she actually wishes him well), and she asks for the “strength of women” to help her to get through. She longs for a “kinder way” than what she is experiencing then and there. The lyrics say teach us all a kinder way. Does she wish Sandor was kinder to her? She could have sang anything at all, but that is the only thing that is on her mind in that moment. This is not a random choice by the author, on the contrary, it’s very intentional. I believe the song tells us a lot about Sansa’s true feelings. 

 

[Lady Dacey]

I’ll go on:

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...I won’t be here to see. I’m going.” “Going?” She tried to wriggle free, but his grasp was iron. “The little bird repeats whatever she hears. Going, yes.” “Where will you go?” “Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere,anywhere.” “You won’t get out,” Sansa said. 

I think maybe the wording here may suggest that Sansa won’t scape Sandor’s “grip” on her. 

Quote

“Who?” she said, too frightened to defy him. The Hound laughed. “I only know who’s lost. Me.” He is drunker than I’ve ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here?

(...)

“Why did you come here?” “You promised me asong, little bird. Have you forgotten?” She didn’t know what he meant. She couldn’t sing for him now, here, with the sky aswirl with fire and men dying in their hundredsand their thousands. “I can’t,”

At first, she is too frightened to defy him, but she becomes emboldened quite rapidly. As soon as he arrives she is at a loss and asks herself what he is doing there, after some back and forth she actually confronts him and demands to known what he wants from her. He says he wants a song, but actually he wants her. She says she couldn’t sing for him then, like that, which means she could very well sing to him under different circumstances - she could be with him under different circumstances. 

He extricates a song out of her at knife point, which is a violation, but in the song itself she retorts and asks for him to be kinder. The song is not what he wants, he wants her, but he can’t bring himself to take her against her will (and I mean take her away from King’s Lading, not “take her” as an euphemism for rape, though he doesn’t do that either, and I don’t think he ever planned to). So he leaves. In realising he can’t be kinder but can’t be so cruel as to actually kidnap her either, he leaves.

In Sansa’s memory the Hound “took a song and a kiss” and left her. Like Tyrion later on, Sandor wants to be wanted, but he feels rejected (it’s a man writing this story, need I remind us all again?). In feeling rejected, precisely when Sansa was actually surrendering, he leaves, and she comes to feel rejected/left behind by this, but she holds on to the cloak he left behind. It’s also very important, on a symbolic level, that his blood stained white cloak is hidden together with Sansa’ summer silks. It’s a promise of future. 

[kissdbyfire]

Haven’t been following this thread as I’d like. But just wanted to say... @Elegant Woes, I’d sooner see Sansa with Patchface rather than Jon Snow. And yes, I adore both Sansa and Jon. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Haven’t been following this thread as I’d like. But just wanted to say... @Elegant Woes, I’d sooner see Sansa with Patchface rather than Jon Snow. And yes, I adore both Sansa and Jon. 

I second that. 

[Nagini's Neville]

@kissdbyfire & @Lyanna<3Rhaegar no need to drag poor patchface into this  shh

[Nagini's Neville]

the sad thing is next to Joffrey and LF PF for sure looks like the ideal husband- I wouldn't be so quick to turn him down. Never know what kind of monster will wait around the next corner 

[Elegant Woes]

@kissdbyfire Early this year I would agreed with you, but since then I have read really good analysis on them and since then I have been in favor of them. Besides knowing George and how he loves to make us uncomfortable I can totally see him giving us a Jon/Sansa romance.

[kissdbyfire]

47 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire Early this year I would agreed with you, but since then I have read really good analysis on them and since then I have been in favor of them. Besides knowing George and how he loves to make us uncomfortable I can totally see him giving us a Jon/Sansa romance. 

I disagree. Obviously.

I do agree that Martin likes to give us uncomfortable scenarios and situations, things to make the reader think, and in doing so, maybe even discover a thing or three about themselves. Also, I don’t recall many Jonsa shippers before the abomination. So, another thing to blame that for. 

As to what you said to NN, Jonsa is not pseudo-incest. It’s downright proper siblingfucking, since they grew up as siblings and to this day believe they are siblings. So to have a heel-turn from either one where they go, “hmmm, all of a sudden I feel like fucking my brother/sister would be super weird and, well, dumb. 

Moreover, Martin does give us more on the matter. We have Ygritte “learning” Jon on the subject: 

ASoS, Jon III

“Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. “I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?”
“Who was he?”
“A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.”
“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

Let alone a man and a woman who were raised as siblings... Gross.

[Elegant Woes]

@kissdbyfire Obviously nothing would happen while they think they are siblings. I see their dynamic playing out like Outline!Arya and Jon. Tormented by their feelings until they realize they aren't siblings but cousins. If you are wondering where I get the idea that Jon/Sansa would happen I am more then happy to share it. Let me know and I will DM you. 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire Obviously nothing would happen while they think they are siblings. I see their dynamic playing out like Outline!Arya and Jon. Tormented by their feelings until they realize they aren't siblings but cousins. If you are wondering where I get the idea that Jon/Sansa would happen I am more then happy to share it. Let me know and I will DM you. 

But that’s not how it works IMO. It’s not like flipping a switch, “Oh! We’re not siblings, let’s get it on!”. 

And cheers for the offer, but I’ve seen most arguments that allegedly support Jonsa, and not a one has impressed me in the least.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

This exchange is so rich, we could write numerous essays about it. Allow me to emphasise different parts and bring some more to the table.

<snip>

Great posts, well written, thank you.

In defence of GRRM, I don't see any actual happenings in the scene that would make the sexual imagery into something real. The symbols are there very strongly, as you point out, but the reality is absent entirely. As to what's in their heads: Sansa has been listening to Cersei's talk about soldier rape (without much understanding); Sandor is mentally and physically burnt out, and besides, he still sees himself as her protector.

I think the symbolic layer is there as part of a theme of shadows, and might-have-beens, and morrows-not-made. It might foreshadow something; if it does, it will probably be in an unexpected way.

However, back in 'reality', I believe both of them thought a great deal about the scene, recognised the might-have-been, and each reacted according to their character. Sansa (optimistically) re-imagines it as a romance. Sandor (darkly) re-imagines it as a rape.

I've no objection to SanSan if they both grow into decent people as seems possible, but this could also be a might-have-been, a romance that never happened except in songs. (See also, Jonsa.)

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So to have a heel-turn from either one where they go, “hmmm, all of a sudden I feel like fucking my brother/sister would be super weird and, well, dumb. 

That's exactly what Targs do, unfortunately.

This thread is progressing faster than I can read it!, I'm nearly ten pages behind.

[Elegant Woes]

@Springwatch When does Sansa re-imagine it as a romance? Are you talking about her dream in second last chapter in A Storm of Swords? 

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That's exactly what Targs do, unfortunately.

Are you referring to the fact that Jon is half Targ? I’d say that no, that’s not what Targs do. In their case there’s no heel turn where they suddenly decide that fucking their siblings might be a grand idea. That is the norm for Targs, they already grow up seeing incest as something that is totally normal and super fine.

And besides that, Jon may have a Targ dad, but he’s a Stark through and through.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:04 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

By telling Ned's plans she was being disloyal to her family in order to try to get what she wants. Again, it doesn't make her horrible, she is a little girl, but it doesn't make it not disloyal either. Arya was also a little girl, a littler girl as a matter of fact & she would have never done this. 

She never stopped thinking. She was always thinking - of ways to get her way in the beginning & of ways to survive after that. 

& Therein lies her flaw. Or one of them. Every thing she does doesn't get justified because of the life she led or the way she was raised. She was spoiled & a little arrogant - some kids are. It's not a fatal flaw but a flaw none the less. There were plenty others, raised the same as her or similar, that wouldn't have reacted the way she did & I'm sure plenty that would have. My issue is that lots of people (not saying you in particular here) give Sansa a pass for what she has done but ridicule Arya. I'm more inclined to sympathize with Arya tbh because her transgressions occur AFTER the traumatic events she experienced shaped her. I'm not saying I can't empathize with Sansa though & she certainly didn't mean to cause any harm to anyone. She is just a little girl who made a mistake. She doesn't deserve to be hung for it, but it was a mistake she should not have made no matter how dreamy she was. 

Agreed but again so was Arya & she reacted very differently to the situation. 

Sorry the quoting isn't working right on my phone so I'll try it like this. 

Sansa having a strong imagination & being sheltered from death & violence is who she is but it isn't a justification for her actions, which is what I took from what you said. (if that was not your intent I apologize) She could have chosen to be more aware of her surroundings & take note of the warning signs placed in front of her but she didn't. This is a mistake even many adults make so I'm not trying to come down too hard on a little girl for it, but just because she is a little girl doesn't mean she couldn't have paid more attention. 

Sansa is growing up in a time & place where you obey your father without question. I disagree that the onus lies with Ned to say more or explain more to her. She should have done what her father told her to. That being said it may have been in Ned's benefit to explain things a little more thoroughly & opened his eyes a little himself in regards to what his daughters were telling him with their words & actions. 

I do agree it was not a betrayal because Sansa definitely lacked intent. It was disloyal though because even though she meant no harm to anyone she went behind her father's back & told something she was specifically told not to. 

Sansa's "awakening" was rough, maybe in many ways worse than for Arya - who experienced much more trauma because Arya knew the world was not a great place. Arya had been subjected to teasing & exclusion at a pretty young age (some at the hands of her sister) & was all in all better equipped to deal with what was to come. Sansa really had no idea - whether that was her own unwillingness to learn or an incapability of hers, I don't know. Most likely a combination of both. 

Sure, Sansa loves them, she is just young, spoiled, sheltered, & naive. I don't think it has anything to do with how pretty they are or not. Robb makes a fatal error & is older than Sansa, so holds more blame but he doesn't ever become disloyal to his family. He was put in a very hard situation in regards to rescuing his sister's & I honestly don't think there was a good answer, or a good way out. He couldn't rescue his sister's without an army ( even then it would be a long shot) & had he chose to use that army or traded a valuable prisoner for them he would lose his army. 

Jon didn't sacrifice the safety of everyone at the wall for Arya. Jon got mad over the RL & decided to take the fight to Ramsay rather than wait for it to come to him. It essentially had nothing to do with Arya. The RL explicitly states Ramsay wants his "bride" back so Jon knows fArya isn't even there or with Ramsay. 

I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded & I think that is where many people on this forum get caught up. Everything isn't black & white & sometimes good people do bad things. It doesn't make them bad people. 

I understand what you are saying about Jon because he definitely has a wildness to him but he is a natural leader. People follow him by instinct & while that hasn't turned out so great for Jon presently it doesn't make him wrong. I do agree he shouldn't be the leader of an entity like the NW though. The majority of them are too stuck in their ways to accept or understand the necessity for change. 

It has nothing to do with appearance.  The unusual look, some say the look of the north, and the long face are traits shared by Jon and Arya.  You are correct.  The looks are not indicative of the personality but it is an inherited trait.  The spectrum between selfish and the opposite trait is also inherited.  But it's not important.  I was lumping Jon and Arya together, Robb and Sansa together.  

Some situations put people in having to decide between bad and worse.  I get that.  I've seen it happen to leaders.  The better ones find a way to minimize the damage to the most number of people.  Jon didn't do that.  What he was about to do would cause more damage than simply allowing Ramsay to do as he will with Arya.   It's hard but that is the scene as created by George Martin.  You and me don't see the same Jon.  I get that.  Our opinion on this complex person differ.  I don't hold that against you.  It's just an opinion.  This is a forum for talking and expressing opinions. 

Putting people into "good" and "evil" slots can seem like a black-white broad categorization.  There is more nuance in these pages.  It's nice that we talk about the nuance. 

[Angel Eyes]

58 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you referring to the fact that Jon is half Targ? I’d say that no, that’s not what Targs do. In their case there’s no heel turn where they suddenly decide that fucking their siblings might be a grand idea. That is the norm for Targs, they already grow up seeing incest as something that is totally normal and super fine.

And besides that, Jon may have a Targ dad, but he’s a Stark through and through.

 

Well, his Stark grandparents are cousins as well.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Well, his Stark grandparents are cousins as well.

And? They’re cousins who grew up as cousins, not siblings. 

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And? They’re cousins who grew up as cousins, not siblings. 

I'm pointing out that incest isn't completely alien to the Starks; farther up the tree, two of Cregan Stark's sons married their nieces.

 

Also, on a general note, I could unfortunately say that Sansa's importance in the story is overestimated; say if Joffrey decided to execute her one day because he felt like it or Meryn Trant beat her to death, how different would the story be?

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm pointing out that incest isn't completely alien to the Starks; farther up the tree, two of Cregan Stark's sons married their nieces. 

I know. And I’m pointing out that cousins marrying is not nearly as gross as siblings. It wasn’t too uncommon irl, and is practiced even today. Yikes, but true. Siblings, though, is way beyond gross.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know. And I’m pointing out that cousins marrying is not nearly as gross as siblings. It wasn’t too uncommon irl, and is practiced even today. Yikes, but true. Siblings, though, is way beyond gross.

 

haha in Germany it's not illegal - the cousins, not the siblings. 

[Nagini's Neville]

54 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you referring to the fact that Jon is half Targ? I’d say that no, that’s not what Targs do. In their case there’s no heel turn where they suddenly decide that fucking their siblings might be a grand idea. That is the norm for Targs, they already grow up seeing incest as something that is totally normal and super fine.

And besides that, Jon may have a Targ dad, but he’s a Stark through and through.

 

I don't know if I understand the logic of the Jon and Sansa shippers correctly since I'm not a shipper of anything, but from what I've seen they presume that Sansa and Jon never thought of each other as siblings anyway. Because of the whole half brother and status thing and Sansa never really being "one of the boys". So their lives were separate. In their opinion there was a lot of distance between them from the start.

We really don't have much of information about how their shared childhood was like.

However the status and bastard issue and also differentiating duties, activities probably didn't start to really kick in until they were a little bit older. In reality you are very unlikely to ever develop a romantic attraction towards someone, that you were very close to in your first 5 years. So in reality Sansa and Jon being attracted to one another would be very unlikely. But it wouldn't be the first time, that GRRM portrays something, that is not exactly realistic like Dany not developing PTSD or any other psychological consequences after being raped by Drogo or Sansa not developing PTSD from being threatened to be killed.

Sansa and Jon shippers please correct me, if I'm wrong here.