Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville I think part of the reason why people are mad at Sansa is because they believe Joffrey isn't worth disobeying her father over. When in reality becoming queen is the highest honor a woman can achieve in her society. People are once again applying modern sensibilities on her.

It's modern American equivalence is getting a full scholarship at Harvard University and suddenly your father decides to pull you out of it and instead says you should go to an community college in an obscure town. Any sane person would be upset over that. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville

It's modern American equivalence is getting a full scholarship at Harvard University and suddenly your father decides to pull you out of it and instead says you should go to an community college in an obscure town. 

This is exactly what it is! Couldn't have said it any better. And ppl also don't take into account how much she has already been prepared for marriage and learned for it. Her whole education is about becoming a good Lady and wife. Of course that is nothing that is on Ned's radar, since he was not responsible for her education, nor was he brought up as a girl himself. But for Sansa marriage isn't that far away anymore at all. Cersei was taken to KL at twelve to find a proper match for her and Cat was betrothed to Brandon at twelve.

[Mystical]

In the end it would have mattered little (and it mattered little to begin with as some people laid out perfectly already). So many different people could have made different decisions to prevent the ultimate worst outcome. And I mean those people fully or partially aware of what was happening.

Ned could have been less of a bumbling idiot, hampered by his hangups and strict moral code and honor. He could have cared more about his own children to start with. Get over children being taken into custody. Hey, how is Theon doing Ned? You didn't have an issue with him being removed from his family for years so what's a few hours for Cersei's children? Could have taken up Renly on his offer.

Robert could have been less of a useless drunk and whoring moron and actually taken what was happening more seriously.

Cat could have chosen not to listen to LF (honey your daughter had the man pegged at age 11 how didn't you?) or jump the gun so fast with Tyrion. Lysa could have chosen not to listen to LF and murder her own husband.

Everybody had agreed that Ned would be send to the Wall since no one wanted a war. But so long as Ned keeps his head, there is no reason for the North to march to war. What would have happened to Sansa and Arya in that scenario, I'm not sure. But LF whispering in Joffrey's ear cost Ned his life and from there events unfolded as they did.

LF could have just chosen to fall into a ditch and die before he had a chance to whisper in Lysa's ear.

And so on...

[Elegant Woes]

Plus we need to keep in mind that Littlefinger may have played a hand in Ned's death. If you read Arya's chapter very carefully you will see that everyone except Baelish is surprised by Joffrey's decision. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

Plus we need to keep in mind that Littlefinger may have played a hand in Ned's death. If you read Arya's chapter very carefully you will see that everyone except Baelish is surprised by Joffrey's decision. 

I always assumed that anyway.

[BlackLightning]

14 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Cat could have chosen not to listen to LF (honey your daughter had the man pegged at age 11 how didn't you?) or jump the gun so fast with Tyrion. Lysa could have chosen not to listen to LF and murder her own husband...

She's known him for too long.

That's another point GRRM is trying to make with this series. Sometimes, it's not a good thing to have a history with someone. You see that with Ned and Robert and, in a way, Robert and Lyanna and Tyrion and Tysha. Sometimes, old friends, acquaintances and lovers are your greatest weaknesses.

[BlackLightning]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:41 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

But Cat did never find out about this, did she?

Littlefinger has been named Lord of Harrenhal and the Lord Paramount of the Trident by the Iron Throne. He also is the Lord Regent of the Vale for Robert Arryn.

These are basic facts that every single highborn person in Westeros knows. Almost all of the smallfolk in the Riverlands and the Vale would know this too.

Again, basic facts. And it wouldn't take much to piece it all together and realize Littlefinger fucked three great houses over and is still making lots of money from doing so.

Instead of Arya or Sansa killing him, I hope the Others take him and/or a zombie bites him.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Littlefinger has been named Lord of Harrenhal and the Lord Paramount of the Trident by the Iron Throne. He also is the Lord Regent of the Vale for Robert Arryn.

These are basic facts that every single highborn person in Westeros knows. Almost all of the smallfolk in the Riverlands and the Vale would know this too.

Again, basic facts. And it wouldn't take much to piece it all together and realize Littlefinger fucked three great houses over and is still making lots of money from doing so.

Instead of Arya or Sansa killing him, I hope the Others take him and/or a zombie bites him.

true. hadn't thought about that.

I also rather Arya and Sansa don't kill him themselves, but just play a role in his downfall.

A LF - LS meeting would be.... magical lol I want it so badly, that it feels to good to happen. But yeah LS or the Others seems appropriate for LF

[Elegant Woes]

No Sansa should be actively involved in Littlefinger's death. Besides Cersei he's the one who is set up to be the main villain in her arc. He was involved in killing her father, saddled a huge crime on her name and he's right now sexually grooming her like the disgusting pedophile he is. Sansa killing him in the Stark way and then spiking his head on the walls of Winterfell is the most beautiful and poetic ending he should get. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

No Sansa should be actively involved in Littlefinger's death. Besides Cersei he's the one who is set up to be the main villain in her arc. He was involved in killing her father, saddled a huge crime on her name and he's right now sexually grooming her like the disgusting pedophile he is. Sansa calling for his beheading and spiking his head on the walls of Winterfell is the most beautiful and poetic ending we could get. 

 

fair enough. I just for some reason don't want Sansa and Arya to kill ppl. I want the ppl, who have wronged them die through their own stupidity. I don't want S+A to be burdened as less as possible. But I can see that I am probably alone with that lol

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville In a perfect world I would love to see Sansa to be just the way she is, but this Westeros and GRRM loves to write grey characters. So Sansa is bound to get darker. Though I expect her to get only a shade or two greyer than she is right now. Sansa is clearly being set up to be lynch pin of the remaining Starks, the motherly figure who makes sure her family members don't get too dark. No matter how cynical she gets a part of Sansa will always clinch onto idealism and have an air of optimism. 

[BlackLightning]

29 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

No Sansa should be actively involved in Littlefinger's death. Besides Cersei he's the one who is set up to be the main villain in her arc. He was involved in killing her father, saddled a huge crime on her name and he's right now sexually grooming her like the disgusting pedophile he is. Sansa killing him in the Stark way and then spiking his head on the walls of Winterfell is the most beautiful and poetic ending he should get. 

Oh, I can see it now. Sansa flying into a rage and having Littlefinger brought before the heart tree in the godswood. Beheading Littlefinger with a sword...

[Elegant Woes]

@Jabar of House Titan I don't mean to say Sansa will physically do that. All I am saying is that Littlefinger is the main villain in Sansa's narrative. In order for her to be truly free she needs to kill him. There's several hints that suggests that will happen.

The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy says Sansa will slay a Giant. Littlefinger's family sigil is the head of the Braavos Titan. This would be a hint that a beheading is in his near future. Secondly when Sansa spikes the head of Little Robert's doll on the walls of the snow replica of Winterfell she feels a mad seize of rage. This again could be hint in what state Sansa would be once she realizes what kind of crimes Littlefinger has committed. Lastly in the Bael the Bard Story there's also a hint of his endgame. (Bael)ish steals a Stark daughter (Sansa) and replaces her with a rose (Margaery) and his 'bastard child' (Alayne Stone) eventually kills him. Not only is there enough hints that Sansa will kill him, it would also be emotionally satisfying. Not only would it be the case of a student surpassing it's master, but also because Littlefinger is under the impression Sansa is Catelyn 2.0. In reality though, if we put her looks aside Sansa is more like her father rather than her mother. So for Littlefinger to be defeated by Sansa, who is so much like Ned, is satisfying like hell. 

[BlackLightning]

51 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Jabar of House Titan I don't mean to say Sansa will physically do that. All I am saying is that Littlefinger is the main villain in Sansa's narrative. In order for her to be truly free she needs to kill him. There's several hints that suggests that will happen.

The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy says Sansa will slay a Giant. Littlefinger's family sigil is the head of the Braavos Titan. This would be a hint that a beheading is in his near future. Secondly when Sansa spikes the head of Little Robert's doll on the walls of the snow replica of Winterfell she feels a mad seize of rage. This again could be hint in what state Sansa would be once she realizes what kind of crimes Littlefinger has committed. Lastly in the Bael the Bard Story there's also a hint of his endgame. (Bael)ish steals a Stark daughter (Sansa) and replaces her with a rose (Margaery) and his 'bastard child' (Alayne Stone) eventually kills him. Not only is there enough hints that Sansa will kill him, it would also be emotionally satisfying. Not only would it be the case of a student surpassing it's master, but also because Littlefinger is under the impression Sansa is Catelyn 2.0. In reality though, if we put her looks aside Sansa is more like her father rather than her mother. So for Littlefinger to be defeated by Sansa, who is so much like Ned, is satisfying like hell. 

Lately, I've been thinking that the prophecy about the maiden slaying a giant applies to Sansa and Tyrion not Sansa and Littlefinger. Tyrion is described as a giant and linked with more giant imagery than anyone in the entire series, including Littlefinger. Tyrion is becoming very dark and very bitter (i.e. the black blood). I don't see him course-correcting either.

Or...the giant in the prophecy could actually apply to both of them. 

Exactly! Sansa is the most like Ned out of all of his children. She is followed shortly by Robb and then Jon.

Arya, despite her looks, is a Tully in all but name. She's as Tully as it gets. Catelyn would've turned out more like Arya if Edmure had either never been born or been born female. In any case, if Catelyn remained Hoster Tully's heir, her outlook and world view would've completely changed, making her more like Arya than not.

While I consider Bran to be a perfect, even blend of both Ned and Cat, he is Catelyn's favorite and probably what Catelyn would've been if she was born male. GRRM did that on purpose.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville In a perfect world I would love to see Sansa to be just the way she is, but this Westeros and GRRM loves to write grey characters. So Sansa is bound to get darker. Though I expect her to get only a shade or two greyer than she is right now. Sansa is clearly being set up to be lynch pin of the remaining Starks, the motherly figure who makes sure her family members don't get too dark. No matter how cynical she gets a part of Sansa will always clinch onto idealism and have an air of optimism. 

Oh I agree with her getting darker or being confronted with immorality, how could it be different, when she is now with LF. That is bound to happen. My prediction is that she'll do or allow some darker things to happen, before she gets back on a more moral path.

I just think there is a big difference between getting a bit darker and actually killing someone.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Jabar of House Titan I don't mean to say Sansa will physically do that. All I am saying is that Littlefinger is the main villain in Sansa's narrative. In order for her to be truly free she needs to kill him. There's several hints that suggests that will happen.

The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy says Sansa will slay a Giant. Littlefinger's family sigil is the head of the Braavos Titan. This would be a hint that a beheading is in his near future. Secondly when Sansa spikes the head of Little Robert's doll on the walls of the snow replica of Winterfell she feels a mad seize of rage. This again could be hint in what state Sansa would be once she realizes what kind of crimes Littlefinger has committed. Lastly in the Bael the Bard Story there's also a hint of his endgame. (Bael)ish steals a Stark daughter (Sansa) and replaces her with a rose (Margaery) and his 'bastard child' (Alayne Stone) eventually kills him. Not only is there enough hints that Sansa will kill him, it would also be emotionally satisfying. Not only would it be the case of a student surpassing it's master, but also because Littlefinger is under the impression Sansa is Catelyn 2.0. In reality though, if we put her looks aside Sansa is more like her father rather than her mother. So for Littlefinger to be defeated by Sansa, who is so much like Ned, is satisfying like hell. 

I agree, that LF has to die, but that doesn't mean Sansa will let him be killed execution style. Maybe she has to kill him, because otherwise he will kill her or even better someone else like Sweetrobin. She has to kill him, because it is the only way to stop him and she has no other choice. I would prefer that to her defeating him and than executing him. But well... this is just me being a mom I guess ( the starks are my children )

Wow, the parallels with Bael the Bard are great, never thought of that before. There is indeed a lot of foreshadowing that Sansa will kill LF, but I don't want her to become a killer though... but yeah you guys are probably right

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

While I consider Bran to be a perfect, even blend of both Ned and Cat, he is Catelyn's favorite and probably what Catelyn would've been if she was born male. GRRM did that on purpose.

Okay, I absolutely never understood why ppl always say Bran is Cat's favorite child. First of all I don't think it is really possible to have a favorite child as a parent. Sure maybe you have more of a connection with one, because your personalities aline.

And than I never got from Cat's chapters, that she favored Bran. She was just crazy with worries for him, which is understandable after what had happened to him. She had almost lost him, so this it's not unusual at all no imo.

[sweetsunray]

Here's my theory of the "meaning of the slay-giant prophecy": Sansa and the giants. I've changed my mind on some particular of the details since then, but the core of it is something I still back.

 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Okay, I absolutely never understood why ppl always say Bran is Cat's favorite child.

Cat says as much. Not in so many words, but it’s there. I’ll  try to find quotes.

Here’s one, from AGoT:

I prayed for it. He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of the god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me.

[Nagini's Neville]

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Here's my theory of the "meaning of the slay-giant prophecy": Sansa and the giants. I've changed my mind on some particular of the details since then, but the core of it is something I still back.

 

 

Really interesting! Thanks!

I've read some of your old posts, because tbh at the time I was a little burned out at the end about the subject and needed a break, so I didn't read everything anymore. And first I wanted to say, that I'm really sorry about what happened in your past and thanks for sharing that!

I'm kind of sad about how our debating on the subject went, it felt really intense to me (maybe that's just me and not being used to this style of debating) we did start of on the wrong foot, which was my fault and I'm really sorry about it!

I didn't come on here to have fights with ppl, but because I'm actually really interested in other ppl's opinions and I want to be able to respectfully disagree. 

I understand your logic, when it comes to sansa, I just see things differently and don't agree with it. But I wish that maybe I would have done a bit of a better job at explaining my logic too, not to get you to agree with me, but to show that I don't pull my opinion out of thin air.

I just think a lot about Sansa is very subtle, she isn't conscious about a lot of her own emotions. Her thought process is not always reflective of what she truly feels or what is going on with her. That leaves naturally room for a lot of different interpretations and opinions. When we assume, that her attraction to the Hound is showing by remembering kissing him (which imo we still can't be 100% sure of, but in combination with a lot of other clues in the text it is a very valid interpretation) or any other interpretation of that false memory really, that really tells us a lot about her and how her mind works.

From the beginning I always really liked Sansa just for herself. I don't want her to be with any man or to be queen or have any specific vision for her character. She just felt incredibly real to me (from the start and also because of her flaws), I admire her for pulling through all of this abuse at such a young age, never giving up and moving forward and I can relate to her a lot (as I think it might be the case for you with Arya). And I also thought that for being such a brat in the beginning she took a lot of blows to her ego, like being publicly humiliated or even something minor like being rejected by Loras incredibly well and with humility, without becoming extremely vengeful/resentful or blaming anyone to the extent, that other some characters do. So I just think I also really like this contrast in her behavior and attitude. It feels human to me. I had to listen to a lot of BS, because of my opinion. 

It always upset me, that ppl were able to forgive cold-hearted murderers and characters, who had committed really awful crimes and basically every man, that cheats on his wife (or puts her through stuff, that wouldn't be acceptable today) or puts other priorities before the well-being of ppl, who are close to them, but aren't able to forgive Sansa, who, whatever your opinions of her may be, didn't know about the consequences of her actions and was still a child after all.

So just a bit of an explanation of where I'm coming from. But yeah, ppl have different opinions and I want to be able to respectfully disagree.

I actually really like Arya. She is among my 9 favorite characters (I don't have an order). I think we agree more on her, than we disagree. Characters killing others however is just a big deal to me and I always remember it even with characters like Ned and Jon. But I understand that that's very subjective and just a personal preference.