Jump to content
Greywater-Watch

Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, I apologize for my apology than, I guess?

Just a blanket apology suffices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, sweetsunray said:

Just a blanket apology suffices.

dunno what  blanket apology is? and now I'm scared! Truth is I actually feel pretty bad for what I said. and now I'm only making it worse...agh! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Okay, that's your opinion and doesn't seem like I'll be able to change that. But even then, that's not all she is in book 1, even then she has moments of compassion and empathy.  

Sandor after he confides his biggest secret with her (and she has witnessed the Mountain's cruel side to Loras, her favourite, the next day), Jori Cassel after being slain by Jaime and Jeyne Poole up to a certain level that she hopes Jeyne's father is alive and while she wants Jeyne to be gone, she wants her to be safe and with her father and not so frightened anymore.

She's not without compassion and empathy, but I would consider Sansa initially as someone with an average to lower scale form of empathy: only for those she personally knows and ends up liking (the inner circle) and insofar it does not conflict with her own interests. And part of the compassion and benevolence is more because she was instructed to believe that is right and how a highborn lady should act, and thus partly facade.  But no, she's not heartless, and with experience her empathy grows. That's ok. This is the learning curve of empathy for a lot of people. I would never consider her an "empath" though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

dunno what  blanket apology is? and now I'm scared! Truth is I actually feel pretty bad for what I said. and now I'm only making it worse...agh! 

I mean that if you apologize, you simply apologize without ifs or buts or conditions. And it's ok. I accept your apology. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sandor after he confides his biggest secret with her (and she has witnessed the Mountain's cruel side to Loras, her favourite, the next day), Jori Cassel after being slain by Jaime and Jeyne Poole up to a certain level that she hopes Jeyne's father is alive and while she wants Jeyne to be gone, she wants her to be safe and with her father and not so frightened anymore.

She's not without compassion and empathy, but I would consider Sansa initially as someone with an average to lower scale form of empathy: only for those she personally knows and ends up liking (the inner circle) and insofar it does not conflict with her own interests. And part of the compassion and benevolence is more because she was instructed to believe that is right and how a highborn lady should act, and thus partly facade.  But no, she's not heartless, and with experience her empathy grows. That's ok. This is the learning curve of empathy for a lot of people. I would never consider her an "empath" though.

Okay, thank you for your opinion!

Would you even later on, when she saves Ser Dontos, Lancel the woman with the dead baby during the riot still not call her an empath? What do you think her motivations were for doing that then? She had no advantages those actions and it even put herself in danger sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I disagree with your general statement that children are selfish, unless you wish to broaden "selfishness" so much that wanting a roof above your head, food in your mouth and clothes on your back is selfish.

I only use seflishness and entitlement as words when it comes to people (adults and children) who feel they deserve or expect to be treated as special at the direct cost of those around them, while shrugging at injustice and cruelty to others as long as it does not hamper them.

And no, imo most children, teens and adults are not that entitled or selfish.

Sansa gets singled out as the 'worst offender [of the Starks]' because she was written to be the worst offender of the Starks in the first book. George confirmed he started out writing Sansa as the one who would betray her family for her own ambitions and desires, only to then learn she had picked the wrong side for the wrong reasons, coming to regret it. Why deny what the author himself admitted is supposed to be the result?

Her response to Mycah's fate is one that upsets me greatly. Her lack of empathy for weeping Jeyne Poole is disturbing. I recognize that she grows more empathic, after her harsh wake-up call.  I wouldn't like her, if she hadn't. It's clearly but a phase, but to me it remains a disturbing phase whenever I reread it.

And yes, at times Bran is also a spoiled brat. He's clearly acting out and wants to be annoying at the start of aCoK. Even if he has reasons, those first few chapters of Bran in aCoK remain an annoying read.

However, when it comes to 'the worst offender' across all books it is imo Tyrion. I only like him on the boat with Jon Connington. 

Is Tyrion the worst offender out the povs ? Or seriously across all the books? I guess you exclude ppl like Ramsey or the mountain then? 

What is your opinion of Robb not attempting to get his sisters back than? Or Ayra killing so many ppl? She didn't have to kill everyone she killed. What is your opinion of the Hound? No matter who feels bad or doesn't for his death, he is the one who killed him after all.

Who would you call an "empath" in the series?

Why do you think she is so compassionate towards Sandor? I personally don't think that's just courtesy. I always thought her behavior towards him was weird and extraordinary. And made her huge capacity for empathy responsible for that, but in your opinion of course she doesn't have that capacity. If an adult drunk violent man threatened to kill me, I would have told my father immediately and after that stayed as far away as I could from him, certainly not went to the tourney and certainly not cheered for him. Why does she do that, if not out of empathy for him? Arya in her position wouldn't have complied and I don't blame her at all.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion. 

I agree w/  @sweetsunray when she says Sansa was a spoiled brat in AGoT. She outgrew all that though. And just to make it very clear, I love Sansa, as I love all the Stark PoVs and even little Rickon.

Just to add my 2p worth... Arya was also a spoiled brat (yes, love her too). It’s just that their respective spoiled brattiness manifested differently... Sansa w/ her head in the clouds and dreams of chivalrous princes, and Arya w/ not giving two fucks about what others might think or even what her duties as the daughter of a noble house and later daughter of the Hand were. So, both were spoiled and selfish brats. 

Another thought here regarding Sansa’s empathy or lack thereof... her composure and apparent lack of empathetic feelings at times seem to be tied in somewhat to what she perceives is the proper behaviour that is expected of her as a noble young lady. No, not all of it, but some. IMNSHO it does play a part, too. 

And in both cases, I think their bratty spoiled behaviour is depicted realistically and in keeping with their personalities, ages, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Is Tyrion the worst offender out the povs ? 

Hell yeah. Now back to reading the rest of your post. :)

“I guess you exclude ppl like Ramsey or the mountain then?”

^ I would think so, they’re not PoV characters.

Edited by kissdbyfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Okay, thank you for your opinion!

Would you even later on, when she saves Ser Dontos, Lancel the woman with the dead baby during the riot still not call her an empath? What do you think her motivations were for doing that then? She had no advantages those actions and it even put herself in danger sometimes.

From aCoK onwards her empathy extends beyond the original sphere yes, mostly to that of recognizing and empathizing with people who are treated like herself. So, in Sansa's first chapter of aCoK we learn she's bruised because Joffrey has the kingsguard beat her, including Arys Oakheart who tries to hit her gently. She's also been seeing a great many men being killed in painful ways over nothing. So, yes, she saves Ser Dontos as her own risk and peril. I don't know whether Sansa had empathy for the woman with the dead baby during the riot, since the riot was written from Tyrion's POV, not Sansa's. We do know that she whispered something to Joffrey to make him throw a coin at the woman. As we don't know her thoughts, in that instance, it might have been the same compassion that Margaery Tyrell has for smallfolk. Lancel is someone she got to know. He's not kind to her in general, but when he speaks of the battle against Stannis, he's sticking up against Cersei, again something that Sansa can empathize with. She reasons she shouldn't help him because he's a Lannister and yet she does.

I still would not call her an empath, but her levels of empathy grow to normal levels: empathy with people beyond the inner sphere, beyond the self-interest, but with whom she recognizes a commonality - the "enemy/rebel of my enemy" so to speak.

I call someone an empath when they have empathy for almost anybody, far outside their acquaintance circle, and without having to go through a similar hardship. Empaths don't need to go through an ordeal of being beaten, or being hungry, nor do they require a common enemy to empathize with someone else's pain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Okay, thank you for your opinion!

Would you even later on, when she saves Ser Dontos, Lancel the woman with the dead baby during the riot still not call her an empath? What do you think her motivations were for doing that then? She had no advantages those actions and it even put herself in danger sometimes.

I believe Sweetsunray was specifically discussing Sansa's lack of empathy in AGOT, and says she gets better after she has her moment of truth realization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Is Tyrion the worst offender out the povs ? Or seriously across all the books? I guess you exclude ppl like Ramsey or the mountain then? 

Of the POVs that appear in all books.

As to Ramsay and the Mountain: I won't shed any tear for psychopaths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Is Tyrion the worst offender out the povs ? Or seriously across all the books? I guess you exclude ppl like Ramsey or the mountain then? 

 

 

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

 Of the POVs that appear in all books.

 As to Ramsay and the Mountain: I won't shed any tear for psychopaths.

What about Cersei?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Interesting discussion. 

I agree w/  @sweetsunray when she says Sansa was a spoiled brat in AGoT. She outgrew all that though. And just to make it very clear, I love Sansa, as I love all the Stark PoVs and even little Rickon.

Just to add my 2p worth... Arya was also a spoiled brat (yes, love her too). It’s just that their respective spoiled brattiness manifested differently... Sansa w/ her head in the clouds and dreams of chivalrous princes, and Arya w/ not giving two fucks about what others might think or even what her duties as the daughter of a noble house and later daughter of the Hand were. So, both were spoiled and selfish brats. 

Another thought here regarding Sansa’s empathy or lack thereof... her composure and apparent lack of empathetic feelings at times seem to be tied in somewhat to what she perceives is the proper behaviour that is expected of her as a noble young lady. No, not all of it, but some. IMNSHO it does play a part, too. 

And in both cases, I think their bratty spoiled behaviour is depicted realistically and in keeping with their personalities, ages, etc. 

Agreed. Arya behaved especially irresponsibly when she dragged Mycah into her "I want to learn sword fighting". And while she hates others for what happened to Mycah, she also expresses guilt over it. She blames herself. Of course, Joffrey is the villain in the case, who just saw an easy target to bully and hurt, thought that would impress a girl, etc., Cersei making worse out of it than necessary, and Robert being a coward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

Pate, Chett, and Varamyr are all POVs that seem to be pretty selfish, petty, bratty, and entitled. :)

Yeah, but they have only one POV and they die at the end of it :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

Pate, Chett, and Varamyr are all POVs that seem to be pretty selfish, petty, bratty, and entitled. :)

Sorta. They’re Prologue/Epilogue PoVs, so definitely not the same thing. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

What about Cersei?

 

Cersei is certified insane. She's an absolute villain. But her POV is only in two books, and so over the top it makes for twisted comedy. Strangely enough, I prefer reading Cersei's dillusional self-proclaimed genius over Tyrion's self-pity-fests, whining for Shae, and petty-got-what-she-deserved thoughts of smallfolk who never really had any power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Cersei is certified insane. She's an absolute villain. But her POV is only in two books, and so over the top it makes for twisted comedy. Strangely enough, I prefer reading Cersei's dillusional self-proclaimed genius over Tyrion's self-pity-fests, whining for Shae, and petty-got-what-she-deserved thoughts of smallfolk who never really had any power.

Hear, hear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×