Jump to content
Greywater-Watch

Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

Recommended Posts

When Sansa told Cersei in the first book about Ned's plan to ship his daughters to Winterfell (which I call a betrayal), well, it made her the most hated Stark for many readers. But what exactly have been the consequences of this behaviour? Or in other words, what would have happened, hadn't she told Cersei?

In my view it would have put Sansa and Arya to safety (so of course their course in the story would have been completely different. But would it have changed anything concerning Ned Stark or Rob's war?

I think there is a high probability that:

1.  Ned would have lost his life anyway.

2. It wouldn't have changed The outcome of Rob's war.

ad 1): Ned lost the game in King's Landing because he was betrayed by Littlefinger (the City Watch). His beheading was due to Jeoffrey's decision, and the Young King didn't care or understand the importance of hostages anyway.

ad 2): Rob would have gone to war anyway, his main reason was to free Ned. Whispering Wood happened independently of Sansa and Arya being hostages. He may have killed Jamie Lannister after the news of Ned's death. But Jamie didn't play much of a role in the war anymore after Whispering Woods. And I cannot see Tywin Lannister taking a different course of action with or without the Stark children hostages. Maybe Rob's position to negotiate a favourable agreement would have been better with Jamie as only valuable hostage in the hands of one of the confronting sides.

Thoughts on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cersei said Sansa betrayed the Ned, and although she isn't the benchmark for rational thought, I believe Martin hinted Sansa's part wasn't 100% innocent.

Imagine Arya founding out about Sansa's tip - wouldn't that hurt?

 

So, yes Sansa kind of betrayed Arya, first and foremost.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed overall.

Sansa snitching on Ned allowed Cersei to stop the departure of Sansa and Arya to the north. Without this, Sansa and Arya are secured in White Harbor by the time that Eddard failed to depose Joffrey.

Once Ned lose his head, so does Jaime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without Sansa's life at risk, it's much less likely that Ned folds to Varys's pressure to confess and join the Black. That is explicitly the reason Ned eventually acquiesces, and it's uncertain about whether Varys could/would successfully lie to Ned about Sansa being captured (he's essentially lying to Ned about Sansa's risk of death, but he doesn't lie about Arya for whatever reason, maybe to avoid showing his true colors to the reader). It's only a short while later that Jaime is captured, and Ned goes from a "Hostage too valuable to execute" to "Holy crap, we need to keep this hostage alive for an exchange". Without Ned up there on stage confessing, there's less of an opportunity for Joffrey to play to the crowd (or be manipulated into it by Littlefinger, if you believe that theory), and significantly more ability for Cersei, Varys, etc. to circumvent a Joffrey order for his death.

If Sansa and Arya escape on a ship, they are returning to Winterfell. Whether they are there or not for Theon's capture (or have any ability to change events there) depends upon a lot of factors, especially whether they are then further betrothed to solidify war alliances.

 

Edited by Lluewhyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa and Arya would have not escaped. Robert would still have died, the golden cloak would still have betrayed Ned and Cersei would have still send in men to capture both Sansa and Arya. The only difference is that Sansa would have seen the deaths of Ned's guards, Vayon Poole, and Septa Mordane. Sansa's action didn't have any affect. However what she did was wrong. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa's action didn't have any affect.

Didn't Martin basically said that she wasn't to blame for Ned's stupidity, but she was giving basically a help to Cersei's plot?

 

3 hours ago, Lluewhyn said:

or be manipulated into it by Littlefinger, if you believe that theory

keep in mind, although based only on eagerness of Janos Slynth and Illyn Payne it makes quite convincing that they had tip based on what LF told them/Varys told Illyn. Tyrion ask Varys, I believe, about their "readyness", but LF holds Varys metaphorical balls. It's possible Tyrion ask LF about that situation, but either of them would lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Starks weren't sharp.   They all contributed to the family implosion.  They hadn't had clan loyalty hammered into them from growing up on a war footing, because they knew they'd won the war and Robert had their back so there was no threat from the south, so they stopped doing drills to meet that threat and they got soft headed and unready like the U.S. has.  Not ready for prime time.  They all fractured along their own "fault lines" when wartime pressures were applied to them.  Not only Sansa.   Sansa sometimes gets an extra groan from the reader owing to how her fail came at the tipping point when you realized things weren't going to end well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa's betrayal prevented the Starks from escaping King's Landing.  Had Sansa not betrayed the plan, yeah, the Starks would have made it back home and left the mess behind.  You know, people criticize Ned for failing to catch on, but at least he caught on.  It was not too late when his eyes were opened.  He had a reasonable escape plan but he made a mistake when he told the girls.  He should never have told Sansa.  It is a glaring character defect of Sansa's.  Being selfish. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa and Arya would have not escaped. Robert would still have died, the golden cloak would still have betrayed Ned and Cersei would have still send in men to capture both Sansa and Arya. The only difference is that Sansa would have seen the deaths of Ned's guards, Vayon Poole, and Septa Mordane. Sansa's action didn't have any affect. However what she did was wrong. 

Why wouldn't they have escaped? I mean, we are explicitly told they didn't get to leave because Sansa snitched so while anything can happen I think it's pretty safe to say they would have escaped. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

The Starks weren't sharp.   They all contributed to the family implosion.  They hadn't had clan loyalty hammered into them from growing up on a war footing, because they knew they'd won the war and Robert had their back so there was no threat from the south, so they stopped doing drills to meet that threat and they got soft headed and unready like the U.S. has.  Not ready for prime time.  They all fractured along their own "fault lines" when wartime pressures were applied to them.  Not only Sansa.   Sansa sometimes gets an extra groan from the reader owing to how her fail came at the tipping point when you realized things weren't going to end well.

But they are all loyal to each other, except Sansa, who isn't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But they are all loyal to each other, except Sansa, who isn't. 

Sansa's loyal to the Starks.  Her betrayal to Cersei was negligent, not an act of deliberate harm, and the result of not knowing all the facts or the stakes involved.  She certainly had no intent to cause harm to anyone.

By the way, it is unlikely they would have made it to Winterfell had they gotten away from Kings Landing.  Ned gave his captain a letter for Stannis, which would have necessitated a visit to Dragonstone.  Ships stopping at Dragonstone were not allowed to leave, however, so they would have been stuck, at least until Stannis's attack on Renly.  I think Theon had taken Winterfell by then, or was close to doing so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Nevets said:

Sansa's loyal to the Starks.  Her betrayal to Cersei was negligent, not an act of deliberate harm, and the result of not knowing all the facts or the stakes involved.  She certainly had no intent to cause harm to anyone.

By the way, it is unlikely they would have made it to Winterfell had they gotten away from Kings Landing.  Ned gave his captain a letter for Stannis, which would have necessitated a visit to Dragonstone.  Ships stopping at Dragonstone were not allowed to leave, however, so they would have been stuck, at least until Stannis's attack on Renly.  I think Theon had taken Winterfell by then, or was close to doing so.

Whether she meant any harm to anyone or not she was disloyal to her father. She was also disloyal to Arya when she lied about the incident with Joffrey & Mycah. I'm not saying Sansa is horrible, I was just pointing out to the other poster that said the Starks weren't loyal to each other that they actually very much were excluding Sansa. 

I don't think we can say with any certainty whether or not they would have reached WF because there are just too many variables but whether they would have or not doesn't justify or negate Sansa's actions. It doesn't make her responsible for what followed but it does make her disloyal to her father & sister. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It got Ned and Tomard killed.  Song of ice and fire is a coming of age story.  The old establishment had to go for the mistakes they made and let the young ones create a mess of their own.  Spilling the beans to Cersei had major consequences for the Starks.  That silly move threw the family into homelessness.  I don't know if it's comeuppance for what the Starks did to Aerys Targaryen's children but there it is.  It goes around. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Loyal to the new family.    To a fault, and then had trouble putting the loyalty car in reverse.

i don't even think it had anything to do with loyalty at all. She just wanted to stay in KL, because she wanted her fairytale to happen with Joff. And than she stopped thinking. In her opinion she knew the world and how things worked, she was so certain with the confidence of an 11 year old, to whom never really anything bad had happen before. She lived in an idyllic world. Not in a million years- did she ever believe anything like Ned's death could ever happen. It didn't fit into her concept of the world.

She not once wanted to cause harm to her family - they weren't even on her mind (I know that's not that nice- but very realistic for self-centered 11 year olds) She was not taught to be on the lookout. She was taught, that she would be protected.

I still don't understand, why it's so hard for ppl to empathize with her. She lives in a world of death and violence, but had been completely excluded from it- which is dangerous. Sansa has a very strong imagination and rich inner life, that dictates how she views the world. It is overpowering, when we first meet her. But until Ned's death, there had never been a reason to give up on it (or modify it) and her family and everyone around her is supportive of it, because Sansa romanticizing the path, that has been laid out for her is only everyone's interest. Her big imagination is not only a disadvantage, but also a strength and an advantage and an essential reason, why she was able to live through her torture in KL and all the other hardships. Her imagination is her safe space and helps her not to lose hope and the belief in the goodness of the world, which is essential to not fall into a deep depression and keep moving forward. 

Call her stupid for not being grounded more in reality and being the princess of her own little fantasy, when we first meet her. But kids are just different, they develop in their own time an in their unique ways.

Ned essentially should have sat down with her and had a couple of serious and very tough and stern conversations with her.

Just telling her "That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.” was not nearly sufficient enough to go against her fairytale world, but actually quite dismissive of her dreams and feelings. Those feelings and dreams might seem silly for an adult, but for a kid they are very big, real and important, they even can feel bigger than life. 

But I always got the feeling Ned did not really know Sansa well enough. She was sweet to him and obedient, she loved songs and everything pretty and fairytale- like. And than he stopped thinking. If he had payed closer attention and had known her better and understood how powerful her by her big imagination fueled dreams were, he might have been able to prevent her from going to Cersei.

But he didn't take her seriously enough and only ever toughed with kid's claws, which was a big mistake.

A betrayal for me is, when a person is fully aware of the outcome of their actions and is aiming for precisely for said outcome. ( Judas betrayed Jesus)

In Sansa's case imo it was just a big self-centered mistake. A mistake with severe consequences, of course. But never intended to cause anyone any harm let alone her own family. Ned however was not an eleven year old kid with limited knowledge of the world, when he endangered his family and Robb did not even try to save his sisters. (so when we talk about loyalty and betrayals, we surely should consider the whole family)

The only person she "owes" anything to/effected by going to Cersei is Arya imo. If she didn't do it, it's very likely they both would have gotten out of KL. But what would have happened to them after that however is questionable. So maybe it's not even so bad how everything came to be. At least both of them are still alive rn, while Robb and Cat are dead and Theon has been tortured. 

The combination of trusting LF and telling cersei of his knowledge about the incest and not telling Robert about it, was Ned's death sentence (and he also greatly endangered his daughters, his whole family and all of the North- I still like Ned though. For me he himself is a little Sansa :laugh:- so don't come at me please)

You might be annoyed by the kind of person Sansa is (in the beginning of the story), I personally can relate to her a lot.

I was kind of really similar at her age, believing way to long that the hogwarts letter still would be delivered to me one day.

And who knows how I would have acted, if I suddenly had found something that looked like it on my doorstep.:laugh:

Having to come down to earth and be more grounded in reality can be very tough for a dreamer, but at a certain moment in life we are all forced to do so.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But they are all loyal to each other, except Sansa, who isn't. 

True up to a point.  I'd like us to dig deeper to tackle this question.  Sansa loves her family but she puts herself first.  The pretty Starks do that.  Robb also put himself ahead of his family and the even greater sin of putting himself ahead of the families who followed him to battle.  He chose the woman he loved rather marry the woman he should have.  That too is selfish.  The ugly Starks put family ahead of the self.  Jon was willing to risk getting hanged and even violated his vows in order to fight for the Starks.  He even sacrificed the safety of everyone at the wall for a Stark, Arya. 

I have read the books repeatedly and my general opinion of these folks haven't changed.  But I am willing to look past the personalities and focus instead on the behavior.  We can condemn them as the people they are and that is a fair reaction.  My way at the moment is by understanding them as people but still condemn their actions.  They are people who would make different choices than I would have.  I guess the lesson here is the problem happens because a legit method for the removal of a person in power is lacking.  A peaceful way to remove Jon from duty should have been in place.  Assassination should not be needed.  A lord commander serving for life has its efficiency but has its own flaws.  A staff of trusted advisers helps.  The Targaryen kings at least had a small council.  Robb didn't have a formal council.  He needed a fair judge to hold trials.  Robb should not be the judge passing the sentence on Cat and Karstark.  The officers of the Watch should judge Janos Slynt because Jon already had a bias. 

Robb Stark could grow into his role if time permitted.  If the Starks had won and the north became its own kingdom.  Robb would rule over a people with shared religion and values.  Jon, I don't think, was cut out for ruling at the wall or anywhere.  He has a lot in common with Mance Rayder and a lot of fans believe they are related.  Father and son.  He's better at breaking rules.  These guys possess a wildness that can't be contained nor can be tamed by rules.   Mance and Jon will do better living outside the boundaries of a feudal monarchy and the strict social and legal code in it. 

Edited by Here's Looking At You, Kid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Whether she meant any harm to anyone or not she was disloyal to her father. She was also disloyal to Arya when she lied about the incident with Joffrey & Mycah. I'm not saying Sansa is horrible, I was just pointing out to the other poster that said the Starks weren't loyal to each other that they actually very much were excluding Sansa.

But don't you think Robb was disloyal to his sisters, when he didn't get them back (he basically sacrificed them for his war imo)? And Ned greatly endangered his daughters, family and the North through his actions- he for sure did not put them first.

He was stupid ( not generally speaking, but in those instances ) and probably didn't think it would affect his family- I give him that. But the same goes for Sansa. And Ned in comparison to her is not a child, who hasn't been exposed to the horrific sides of the world yet.

Arya was loyal. It was very hard for her to empathzies with Sansa's situation. Which shouldn't be expected from a 9 year old. And of course Sansa didn't empathize with her either.

But Sansa is in a new situation now. She also has to be loyal to her "new family". That's what has been taught to her. And Ned shouldn't have left her so alone with this dilemma, especially with so much at stake. But he in general just left her education to their Septa and didn't give it to much thought after that. He didn't really take the time to get to know his daughter well enough. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why wouldn't they have escaped? I mean, we are explicitly told they didn't get to leave because Sansa snitched so while anything can happen I think it's pretty safe to say they would have escaped. 

Not possible. The times are all wrong.

The Wind Witch was going to leave on the evening tide, and Robert died just one hour after Sansa walked out of the Stark breakfast.

It's not possible that the Stark girls could have been overlooked for all that time. And in fact the Kingsguard came to snatch Arya from her fencing lesson, not from the Wind Witch.

Cersei had no time to change her plans, and didn't need to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don't even think it had anything to do with loyalty at all. She just wanted to stay in KL, because she wanted her fairytale to happen with Joff

By telling Ned's plans she was being disloyal to her family in order to try to get what she wants. Again, it doesn't make her horrible, she is a little girl, but it doesn't make it not disloyal either. Arya was also a little girl, a littler girl as a matter of fact & she would have never done this. 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And than she stopped thinking.

She never stopped thinking. She was always thinking - of ways to get her way in the beginning & of ways to survive after that. 

39 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

her opinion she knew the world and how things worked, she was so certain with the confidence of an 11 year old, to whom never really anything bad had happen before. She lived in an idyllic world

& Therein lies her flaw. Or one of them. Every thing she does doesn't get justified because of the life she led or the way she was raised. She was spoiled & a little arrogant - some kids are. It's not a fatal flaw but a flaw none the less. There were plenty others, raised the same as her or similar, that wouldn't have reacted the way she did & I'm sure plenty that would have. My issue is that lots of people (not saying you in particular here) give Sansa a pass for what she has done but ridicule Arya. I'm more inclined to sympathize with Arya tbh because her transgressions occur AFTER the traumatic events she experienced shaped her. I'm not saying I can't empathize with Sansa though & she certainly didn't mean to cause any harm to anyone. She is just a little girl who made a mistake. She doesn't deserve to be hung for it, but it was a mistake she should not have made no matter how dreamy she was. 

46 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She not once wanted to cause harm to her family - they weren't even on her mind (I know that's not that nice- but very realistic for self-centered 11 year olds) She was not taught to be on the lookout. She was taught, that she would be protected

Agreed but again so was Arya & she reacted very differently to the situation. 

48 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

i don't even think it had anything to do with loyalty at all. She just wanted to stay in KL, because she wanted her fairytale to happen with Joff. And than she stopped thinking. In her opinion she knew the world and how things worked, she was so certain with the confidence of an 11 year old, to whom never really anything bad had happen before. She lived in an idyllic world. Not in a million years- did she ever believe anything like Ned's death could ever happen. It didn't fit into her concept of the world.

She not once wanted to cause harm to her family - they weren't even on her mind (I know that's not that nice- but very realistic for self-centered 11 year olds) She was not taught to be on the lookout. She was taught, that she would be protected.

I still don't understand, why it's so hard for ppl to empathize with her. She lives in a world of death and violence, but had been completely excluded from it- which is dangerous. Sansa has a very strong imagination and rich inner life, that dictates how she views the world. It is overpowering, when we first meet her. But until Ned's death, there had never been a reason to give up on it (or modify it) and her family and everyone around her is supportive of it, because Sansa romanticizing the path, that has been laid out for her is only everyone's interest. Her big imagination is not only a disadvantage, but also a strength and an advantage and an essential reason, why she was able to live through her torture in KL and all the other hardships. Her imagination is her safe space and helps her not to lose hope and the belief in the goodness of the world, which is essential to not fall into a deep depression and keep moving forward. 

Call her stupid for not being grounded more in reality and being the princess of her own little fantasy, when we first meet her. But kids are just different, they develop in their own time an in their unique ways.

Ned essentially should have sat down with her and had a couple of serious and very tough and stern conversations with her.

Just telling her "That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.” was not nearly sufficient enough to go against her fairytale world, but actually quite dismissive of her dreams and feelings. Those feelings and dreams might seem silly for an adult, but for a kid they are very big, real and important, they even can feel bigger than life. 

But I always got the feeling Ned did not really know Sansa well enough. She was sweet to him and obedient, she loved songs and everything pretty and fairytale- like. And than he stopped thinking. If he had payed closer attention and had known her better and understood how powerful her by her big imagination fueled dreams were, he might have been able to prevent her from going to Cersei.

But he didn't take her seriously enough and only ever toughed with kid's claws, which was a big mistake.

A betrayal for me is, when a person is fully aware of the outcome of their actions and is aiming for precisely for said outcome. ( Judas betrayed Jesus)

In Sansa's case imo it was just a big self-centered mistake. A mistake with severe consequences, of course. But never intended to cause anyone any harm let alone her own family. Ned however was not an eleven year old kid with limited knowledge of the world, when he endangered his family and Robb did not even try to save his sisters. (so when we talk about loyalty and betrayals, we surely should consider the whole family)

The only person she "owes" anything to/effected by going to Cersei is Arya imo. If she didn't do it, it's very likely they both would have gotten out of KL. But what would have happened to them after that however is questionable. So maybe it's not even so bad how everything came to be. At least both of them are still alive rn, while Robb and Cat are dead and Theon has been tortured. 

The combination of trusting LF and telling cersei of his knowledge about the incest and not telling Robert about it, was Ned's death sentence (and he also greatly endangered his daughters, his whole family and all of the North- I still like Ned though. For me he himself is a little Sansa :laugh:- so don't come at me please)

You might be annoyed by the kind of person Sansa is (in the beginning of the story), I personally can relate to her a lot.

I was kind of really similar at her age, believing way to long that the hogwarts letter still would be delivered to me one day.

And who knows how I would have acted, if I suddenly had found something that looked like it on my doorstep.:laugh:

Having to come down to earth and be more grounded in reality can be very tough for a dreamer, but at a certain moment in life we are all forced to do so.

 

 

 

 

Sorry the quoting isn't working right on my phone so I'll try it like this. 

Sansa having a strong imagination & being sheltered from death & violence is who she is but it isn't a justification for her actions, which is what I took from what you said. (if that was not your intent I apologize) She could have chosen to be more aware of her surroundings & take note of the warning signs placed in front of her but she didn't. This is a mistake even many adults make so I'm not trying to come down too hard on a little girl for it, but just because she is a little girl doesn't mean she couldn't have paid more attention. 

Sansa is growing up in a time & place where you obey your father without question. I disagree that the onus lies with Ned to say more or explain more to her. She should have done what her father told her to. That being said it may have been in Ned's benefit to explain things a little more thoroughly & opened his eyes a little himself in regards to what his daughters were telling him with their words & actions. 

I do agree it was not a betrayal because Sansa definitely lacked intent. It was disloyal though because even though she meant no harm to anyone she went behind her father's back & told something she was specifically told not to. 

Sansa's "awakening" was rough, maybe in many ways worse than for Arya - who experienced much more trauma because Arya knew the world was not a great place. Arya had been subjected to teasing & exclusion at a pretty young age (some at the hands of her sister) & was all in all better equipped to deal with what was to come. Sansa really had no idea - whether that was her own unwillingness to learn or an incapability of hers, I don't know. Most likely a combination of both. 

27 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

True up to a point.  I'd like us to dig deeper to tackle this question.  Sansa loves her family but she puts herself first.  The pretty Starks do that.  Robb also put himself ahead of his family and the even greater sin of putting himself ahead of the families who followed him to battle.  He chose the woman he loved rather marry the woman he should have.  That too is selfish.  The ugly Starks put family ahead of the self.  Jon was willing to risk getting hanged and even violated his vows in order to fight for the Starks.  He even sacrificed the safety of everyone at the wall for a Stark, Arya. 

I have read the books repeatedly and my general opinion of these folks haven't changed.  But I am willing to look past the personalities and focus instead on the behavior.  We can condemn them as the people they are and that is a fair reaction.  I can understand them as people but still condemn their actions.  They are people who would make different choices than I would have.  I guess the lesson here is the problem happens because a legit method for the removal of a person in power is lacking.  A peaceful way to remove Jon from duty should have been in place.  Assassination should not have been needed.  A lord commander serves for life has its efficiency but has its own flaws.  A staff of trusted advisers helps.  The Targaryen kings at least had a small council.  Robb didn't have a formal council because what he had were war generals.  He needed the equivalent of a fair judge.  Robb should not be the one passing the sentence on Cat and Karstark.  The officers of the Watch should have been the ones to judge Janos Slynt because Jon already had a bias. 

Robb Stark could have eventually grown into the role.  If the Starks had won and the north had become its own kingdom.  Robb would rule over a people that shared religion and values.  Jon, I don't think, was cut out for ruling at the wall or anywhere.  He has a lot in common with Mance Rayder and a lot of fans believe they are related.  Father and son.  He's better at breaking rules than making them.  They possess wildness that can't be contained nor can be tamed by rules. 

Sure, Sansa loves them, she is just young, spoiled, sheltered, & naive. I don't think it has anything to do with how pretty they are or not. Robb makes a fatal error & is older than Sansa, so holds more blame but he doesn't ever become disloyal to his family. He was put in a very hard situation in regards to rescuing his sister's & I honestly don't think there was a good answer, or a good way out. He couldn't rescue his sister's without an army ( even then it would be a long shot) & had he chose to use that army or traded a valuable prisoner for them he would lose his army. 

Jon didn't sacrifice the safety of everyone at the wall for Arya. Jon got mad over the RL & decided to take the fight to Ramsay rather than wait for it to come to him. It essentially had nothing to do with Arya. The RL explicitly states Ramsay wants his "bride" back so Jon knows fArya isn't even there or with Ramsay. 

I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded & I think that is where many people on this forum get caught up. Everything isn't black & white & sometimes good people do bad things. It doesn't make them bad people. 

I understand what you are saying about Jon because he definitely has a wildness to him but he is a natural leader. People follow him by instinct & while that hasn't turned out so great for Jon presently it doesn't make him wrong. I do agree he shouldn't be the leader of an entity like the NW though. The majority of them are too stuck in their ways to accept or understand the necessity for change. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 The ugly Starks put family ahead of the self.  Jon was willing to risk getting hanged and even violated his vows in order to fight for the Starks.  He even sacrificed the safety of everyone at the wall for a Stark, Arya. 

Jon is very loyal to most of the Starks, but doesn't think once about how Sansa is doing in her captivity and later in her forced marriage to Tyrion at 12. He doesn't even asks himself, what has become of her after Tyrion murdered his father. His reaction to Arya being in trouble is however completely different.

With Robb it's the same. He doesn't get his sisters back. When he hears about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, his only comment is basically: "Shit, should have married her off myself." So he just would have used her himself in a way that would have been beneficial to him.

Arya does not once ask the Hound about Sansa, even though he mentions quite a bit.

The only person, who ever thinks of her is Cat.

So I really ask myself why there is always unquestionable loyalty demanded of Sansa, when everyone else is not thinking of her either.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×