UK Politics: Spaffed up the wall while chuntering from a sedentary position

[polishgenius]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

those Indiginous Americans did so well out of immigration didn’t they. Good point.

 

 

You're really comparing your plight at the hands of economic migrants to the UK to the genocide of the Americas. Your lack of perspective would  be utterly hilarious if it didn't have such horrible things driving it.

[A wilding]

55 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Bit of a dilemma isn’t it. People hate him, yet Tories are leading in the polls. Must be be frustrating for you 

So basically, you are being gleeful about the fact that the leaders of both the major parties have unprecedentedly low approval ratings and that whichever of them ends up as PM will be hated by a majority of the country? Personally, I don't find anything very amusing about that, but each to their own ...

[Heartofice]

26 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

You're really comparing your plight at the hands of economic migrants to the UK to the genocide of the Americas. Your lack of perspective would  be utterly hilarious if it didn't have such horrible things driving it.

You really didn’t get that conversation did you.

 

5 minutes ago, A wilding said:

So basically, you are being gleeful about the fact that the leaders of both the major parties have unprecedentedly low approval ratings and that whichever of them ends up as PM will be hated by a majority of the country? Personally, I don't find anything very amusing about that, but each to their own ...

Seeing certain people frothing at the mouth over things most people are not bothered by amuses me.

[Conflicting Thought]

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You really didn’t get that conversation did you.

Oh, so you werent being incredibly tone deaf, like you usually are? Please explain to me, what did you want to say with that "example"?

[Chaircat Meow]

So the nomination papers are in and it looks like the Brexit Party are standing in almost all Labour held seats including nearly all the major marginals Boris needs to get a majority. They've pulled out of Dudley after the candidate unilaterally stood down and they are not standing in Canterbury either I heard but apart from that we are good.

Farage is all over the place accusing the Tories of corruption one minute and saying he'll vote for them the next. He's not going after the Boris deal hammer and tongs the way Remainers wanted but he's still going to help out in the most crucial seats.

Thanks Nigel!!!

[A wilding]

56 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Seeing certain people frothing at the mouth over things most people are not bothered by amuses me. 

Except that it seems that a majority of people are against Johnson, and so are presumably at least somewhat bothered about the possibility of him winning the election. So I think that it can be legitimately said that to be amused about that is somewhat trollish.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

6 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

 Cameron seemed a decent sort of chap, but May was doing her thing as  his home secretary, so he has to take the responsibility for that as well. 

Cameron was a hole bunch of nothing. Was there any deep political conviction behind anything he ever did, other than being entitled to be PM?

6 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Now we come to Boris. The language in his Telegraph  articles was appalling. Yes, he was using code to ingratiate himself with the party faithful to win the nomination. It's fair enough to criticize him for that. He should be taken to task for a lot of other things too. In a normal state of affairs he should not be considered as a candidate for PM. But to paint him as a 'posh racist', strikes me as a bit misleading. That's actually Rees-Mogg & co. As an additional data point, while he wasn't exactly being faithful to her, Boris was married to Marina Wheeler for many years, and she's of half-Indian heritage.  Of course that doesn't absolve him of anything by itself, but adds to the other data points of cabinet appointments. So, sure he was saying racist things, but it's misleading to kind of paint him as another Trump or some BNP type.

Again, that's a very superficial take on things wrt Johnson. There's stuff we can observe, as in they happened in a reality. Like Johnson using pretty open racist language. That is undisputed. To what extent those are his very own beliefs, and to what extent he just said to pander to a racist Tory membership and general electorate is open for debate, and not part of an observable reality. And I don't think it makes a difference. If you say and do racist stuff, then it's perfectly fair to be called racist. So Johnson was married to wheeler, that like you said, doesn't absolve him of anything. And we still don't know why he married her.

1 hour ago, A wilding said:

Except that it seems that a majority of people are against Johnson, and so are presumably at least somewhat bothered about the possibility of him winning the election. So I think that it can be legitimately said that to be amused about that is somewhat trollish.

Somewhat of an understatement. (sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[HexMachina]

9 hours ago, Heartofice said:

The argument often used is that Brits shouldn’t so offended by immigration, British culture isn’t a thing, we are a nation of immigrants. I mean what is a Brit? Are they Anglo Saxons? Norman’s, Viking’s , Roman? Picts or Celts etc etc 

This has been something said on this very board a couple of times in fact and it’s a pretty terrible argument in favour of immigrant as you point out 

We’re all still waiting with bated breath for you to tell us (or, if we are charitable and believe your previous claim despite nobody else remembering you answer this previously, recalling for us) what British culture is and how immigration has destroyed it. I’ve not been so excited for a new deflection since the Lies of Locke Lamora

[The Anti-Targ]

12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fiji is the perfect demonstration of the ultimate outcome of long term immigration. I don’t see how any reasonable person can argue that the end result of decades of immigration into Fiji was not detrimental to the political power of indigenous Fijians.

I mean any colonised country is the perfect demonstration of the ultimate outcome of long term immigration on the political power of the indigenous people. But I imagine you are not advocating for yourself to be "sent back where you came from" to allow native Americans to regain the political power over their own country that they deserve.

Also in the case of Fiji, almost no Fijian Indians originally came to Fiji by choice. the original immigrants were brought in as indentured Labour by the Colonial Brits to run the sugar plantations. So if you are going to draw some kind of parallel with Britain I guess it would be the Afro-Brits who are the decendants of slaves brought to Britain before slavery was abolished in Britain? Fortunately for white Brits they did not enslave enough Africans for it to lead to Afro-Brits having all of the political power.

However, contrary to your assertions about Fiji. This country is actually a pretty good example of the indigeous people managing to maintain political power in the face of forced colonialist immigration. The actual colonialists are entirely gone, and native Fijians remain the sizeable majority (>56%) with most of the political control, and are the only ethnic group allowed to own land (Natrive Land)other than about 8% of the total land area which is freehold and can be bought and sold including to non-Fiji citizens.

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

So the nomination papers are in and it looks like the Brexit Party are standing in almost all Labour held seats including nearly all the major marginals Boris needs to get a majority. They've pulled out of Dudley after the candidate unilaterally stood down and they are not standing in Canterbury either I heard but apart from that we are good.

Farage is all over the place accusing the Tories of corruption one minute and saying he'll vote for them the next. He's not going after the Boris deal hammer and tongs the way Remainers wanted but he's still going to help out in the most crucial seats.

Thanks Nigel!!!

Does the Brexit party standing anywhere advantage the Cons vs Labour? I imagine the Brexit part will bleed votes from Labour and Cons but would they pull more votes from Labour in some places?

To kind of answer my own question, I would think in a very Brexit dominated election the Brexit Party is more likely to take votes off Labour in numbers they would probably not otherwise do. But even so, will that rise to a level where they take more form Labour than the Cons in key electorates?

Will Lib Dem voters in marginal Lab/Con seats vote strategically to try to make sure they get the largest party they want (not making any assumptions about which that is), or will they stick with voting Lib Dem?

[Chaircat Meow]

23 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Does the Brexit party standing anywhere advantage the Cons vs Labour? I imagine the Brexit part will bleed votes from Labour and Cons but would they pull more votes from Labour in some places?

To kind of answer my own question, I would think in a very Brexit dominated election the Brexit Party is more likely to take votes off Labour in numbers they would probably not otherwise do. But even so, will that rise to a level where they take more form Labour than the Cons in key electorates?

2. Will Lib Dem voters in marginal Lab/Con seats vote strategically to try to make sure they get the largest party they want (not making any assumptions about which that is), or will they stick with voting Lib Dem?

No, not as far as I know.

The Brexit Party takes more votes from the Conservatives than Labour by at least a ratio of 2:1 but maybe by as much as 5:1. If it stands in any seat it advantages the Labour or Liberal party (look up Profs Rob Ford or Matthew Goodwin on twitter for detail).

So Farage withdrawing from all Tory seats helps the Tories hold Conservative/Liberal marginals. It would help them hold Conservative/Labour marginals where they are the current incumbents too but as Labour is not expected to make many direct gains vs the Tories anyway this probably will not change much. Crucially Farage's refusal to stand the candidates down in Labour/Conservative marginals where Labour are the incumbents is a big lifeline for Corbyn.  

2. That is the big question. The rise in the Liberal vote since 2017 puts Tory seats in the south of England under threat but it also weakens Labour in the Midlands battleground. So if the Liberal vote is badly distributed Johnson gains, as losses to Swinson in the South will be offset by gains against Corbyn in the Midlands. On the other hand if people inclined to vote Liberal are prepared to vote Labour if the Liberals are not the challengers in their seats this will shore up Labour.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

We’re all still waiting with bated breath for you to tell us (or, if we are charitable and believe your previous claim despite nobody else remembering you answer this previously, recalling for us) what British culture is and how immigration has destroyed it. I’ve not been so excited for a new deflection since the Lies of Locke Lamora

From what I understand he’s referring to this old posts from the end of May thread. Took me about it about a minute to find but I’m quite frankly bored enough to do it. 

“Not sure why you continue to use this 44 year figure so often. You know full well that the EU that Britain joined many years ago bares little resemblance to the one we are leaving now, and will be massively different in the future. 

Anyway I’ll skip most of your post as it just you not really saying anything and just attempting humour and bad faith arguments.

Ill skip to the bit at the end because it’s worth clarifying. 

Culture and traditions are fluid, that is correct. They change over time. It’s not a coincidence that curry has become a national dish. But at the same time that doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as a national identity, set of values, history and tradition that most people are proud of. For a lot of Brits it might a lot of things, maybe it’s fish and chips, maybe it’s a Sunday roast, curry, maybe it’s an obsession with talking about the weather, politeness, saying sorry, maybe it’s a football team, maybe it’s a sense of location, family history, their accent, the way they dress, what they do on the weekend. I don’t know, it could be a lot of things. We know one of the most common factors amongst Brexit voters was that they valued their sense of place , their national identity and traditions and we know those things are less valued amongst remain voters.

Lots of Brits are not comfortable with the amount of change happening in the country, and there has been a large change. Over ten years the foreign born population of the UK almost doubled. We do have problems with integrating new people and we have plenty of ghettos where communities simply do not mix .That’s not healthy.

So yeah, immigration and integration is a form of cultural exchange, with both sides taking bits from each other. You at least need to give the sense that is happening but that is difficult if things happen too quickly, if whole areas change within a few years. You make the issue worse by telling Brits that their culture has no value, that their national identity that they base a lot of their sense of community and worth on means nothing.

I don’t believe this is about racism, when polled most people are fine with immigration, they tend to accept immigrants. But there are a lot of people for whom there is a limit to how quickly that change can happen.

So getting back to what this is all about. The question is really ‘why are people having to vote for the Brexit party’ . The lazy answer is that they must be racist or there is some underground conspiracy or secret money. But the truth is that the main parties and media didn’t listen to people when they said they were uncomfortable with the rapid change, that they valued stability and tradition. So they went with the parties who listened. It seems a lot of people are still not listening and find it easier to mis characterise people”

[Heartofice]

Thanks @Varysblackfyre321 I couldn't be arsed to go find that. I know I have said all of this to you and a few others in private messages anyway. I don't see the point of derailing threads to simply defend myself against accusations of holding positions I don't hold. 

6 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

No, not as far as I know.

The Brexit Party takes more votes from the Conservatives than Labour by at least a ratio of 2:1 but maybe by as much as 5:1. If it stands in any seat it advantages the Labour or Liberal party (look up Profs Rob Ford or Matthew Goodwin on twitter for detail).

So Farage withdrawing from all Tory seats helps the Tories hold Conservative/Liberal marginals. It would help them hold Conservative/Labour marginals where they are the current incumbents too but as Labour is not expected to make many direct gains vs the Tories anyway this probably will not change much. Crucially Farage's refusal to stand the candidates down in Labour/Conservative marginals where Labour are the incumbents is a big lifeline for Corbyn.  

I think all that is correct, but one train of thought is that there are a lot of Leave voters out there who wouldn't ever switch from Labour to Tory, it would be too painful for them. But they would consider switching to the Brexit party to register their protest at Labour's Brexit policy. In some ways that might still help the Tories but I don't think its enough to make a huge difference.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Still waiting to hear what exact elements of British culture are under threat from immigrants. What exactly is British culture? It’s always changing, and US TV is a far greater catalyst for change than immigration.

What is ‘our’ national identity? Is there such a thing? We vary so much from region to region! A Glaswegian ‘identity’ is different from a London one.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Still waiting to hear what exact elements of British culture are under threat from immigrants. What exactly is British culture? It’s always changing, and US TV is a far greater catalyst for change than immigration.

What is ‘our’ national identity? Is there such a thing? We vary so much from region to region! A Glaswegian ‘identity’ is different from a London one.

Yeah I didn’t say British culture was under threat from immigrants. Read the post.

[The Marquis de Leech]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

However, contrary to your assertions about Fiji. This country is actually a pretty good example of the indigeous people managing to maintain political power in the face of forced colonialist immigration. The actual colonialists are entirely gone, and native Fijians remain the sizeable majority (>56%) with most of the political control, and are the only ethnic group allowed to own land (Natrive Land)other than about 8% of the total land area which is freehold and can be bought and sold including to non-Fiji citizens.

Of all the places used to evoke fears about migration, Free Northman evokes Fiji? The place that has had multiple military dictators seize power in the name of protecting indigenous people from those evil, evil Indians? Honestly, it's a study in racial prejudice going the other way, in terms of Fijian Indians being politically screwed.

[HexMachina]

Speaking of Free Northman, he must be so torn right now by his hero’s decision and comments: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cites-brexit-as-germany-chosen-over-uk-for-european-plant-elon-musk

Quote

The Tesla chief executive, Elon Musk, has said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the firm’s decision to build its first European factory in Germany rather than the UK.

The billionaire entrepreneur revealed that the firm’s European battery plant would be built on the outskirts of Berlin.

Speaking to Auto Express after making the announcement, Musk said: “Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK.”

The US electric carmaker also plans to locate a research and development base in the German capital. Musk announced the Berlin decision at a car industry awards ceremony on Tuesday night hosted by the German tabloid Bild.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The uncertainty would be gone had Brexit not been delayed for so long, ironically.

More broadly, while I am inspired by a lot that Musk does, that does not mean I agree with him on everything. Religion being another good example.

But ultimately, if I was British I would support Brexit despite its economic impact, not because of it.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Speaking of Free Northman, he must be so torn right now by his hero’s decision and comments: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cites-brexit-as-germany-chosen-over-uk-for-european-plant-elon-musk

 

Yeah uncertainty being a bit of a key word there. Let's hope nobody votes for Labour and we don't end up with another hung parliament then.
 

10 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

We’re all still waiting with bated breath for you to tell us (or, if we are charitable and believe your previous claim despite nobody else remembering you answer this previously, recalling for us) what British culture is and how immigration has destroyed it. I’ve not been so excited for a new deflection since the Lies of Locke Lamora

I notice no comment after this?

[Werthead]

 

Quote

We know one of the most common factors amongst Brexit voters was that they valued their sense of place , their national identity and traditions and we know those things are less valued amongst remain voters.

Citation needed.

Quote

Lots of Brits are not comfortable with the amount of change happening in the country, and there has been a large change. Over ten years the foreign born population of the UK almost doubled.

Citation needed. What large change, where? Where has an influx of mostly educated, white, Christian eastern Europeans caused major, widespread problems in the UK?

Quote

We do have problems with integrating new people and we have plenty of ghettos where communities simply do not mix .That’s not healthy.

Where are these problems? What is the location of these "ghettos" (Racist Dogwhistling Term #327 when applied to Poles)?

Quote

You at least need to give the sense that is happening but that is difficult if things happen too quickly, if whole areas change within a few years.

What areas have changed within a few years, and how?

Quote

 

You make the issue worse by telling Brits that their culture has no value, that their national identity that they base a lot of their sense of community and worth on means nothing.

 

This never happened. What did happen is that you claimed that some British people felt that their sense of national identity was under threat from European immigration but then failed to explain how.

Quote

 

So getting back to what this is all about. The question is really ‘why are people having to vote for the Brexit party’ . The lazy answer is that they must be racist or there is some underground conspiracy or secret money. But the truth is that the main parties and media didn’t listen to people when they said they were uncomfortable with the rapid change, that they valued stability and tradition. So they went with the parties who listened. It seems a lot of people are still not listening and find it easier to mis characterise people”

This is the point made previously: that people (or at least some people) who voted for Brexit for irrational reasons, that they "felt" that their culture/way of life/whatever was under threat from European immigration but when challenged, have never been able to articulate why, in specific terms this is so. This then falls back on an appeal to ask people who have rationally seen the economic, social and political arguments for Brexit and found them wanting (if not actually non-existent) to surrender to a bunch of snowflakes who want to leave the EU because it will make them feel better because reasons.