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UK Politics: Spaffed up the wall while chuntering from a sedentary position


Chaircat Meow

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah uncertainty being a bit of a key word there. Let's hope nobody votes for Labour and we don't end up with another hung parliament then.
 

I notice no comment after this?

What is there to comment on? The post Varys dug up, which would have taken you all of about 2 minutes to summarise last time I asked instead of being obstinate and refusing to answer, doesn't really seem to adress the points in my post anyway. The things you cite people considering as culture mostly come from immigration anyway. I didn't comment because I don't see what there is to comment on

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29 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

doesn't really seem to adress the points in my post anyway. 

Well it wouldn't. because you felt the need to keep accusing me of saying things I've never said, and have  done it repeatedly. Now there is the post that I originally wrote (which you could have bothered to go find), that seems,  to some people, to read as ' Immigrants are ruining British Culture' but says nothing of the sort. The people who bothered to engage with me personally would know I don't hold that opinion. 

I hope all this has satisfied your excitement.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well it wouldn't. because you felt the need to keep accusing me of saying things I've never said, and have  done it repeatedly. Now there is the post that I originally wrote (which you could have bothered to go find), that seems,  to some people, to read as ' Immigrants are ruining British Culture' but says nothing of the sort. The people who bothered to engage with me personally would know I don't hold that opinion. 

I hope all this has satisfied your excitement.

What did I accuse you of saying that you didn't say? I asked you what British culture was first. I more recently asked how immigration was ruining this. You seem to think your initial post didn't take this position which I find debatable at best. It was full of your usual hedging language saying "some people see..." etc. Etc. By which you are able to say nope that's not my position that's just what some people say. 

And people did try to engage with you in this thread but the levels of intellectual dishonesty, deflection and weasel wording to establish plausible deniability make it a frustrating endeavour and I don't know why I'm bothering now. 

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I was reading today that the Lord Buckethead who stood in the 2017 election against Theresa May has been forced to relinquish the name due to copyright infringement so there's now an officially approved Lord Buckethead who has joined the Monster Raving Loony Party and is standing against Boris. The previous Lord Buckethead has now renamed himself Count Binface and is going to stand against both Boris and the new Lord Buckethead. There's something about all this that seems to perfectly sum up the state of British politics in 2019.

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Getting back to what our two main political parties have been saying - which is different things at the same time basically -  in case you missed it yesterday, this is the complete disarray on immigration on both sides as populism on both sides means both parties appealing to both sides of the immigration debate :lmao:

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-the-real-immigration-news-is-the-cap-has-gone-rmt-strikes-again-a4287201.html

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57 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Pretty solid (and oddly timely) analysis on the immigration issue here.

A good article, thank you.

I hope the below is on target, would mean perhaps we have passed peak hysteria on this issue.

Quote

That politicians and tabloids are no longer “banging on” about immigration – certainly not at the fever pitch of the years prior to the EU referendum – may partly explain why immigration has dropped in prominence as a public concern: it now ranks just below the environment as the sixth biggest issue of the December general election. Brexit, which tops this same YouGov poll from last week, may for some be acting as a proxy for immigration. But perhaps the Windrush scandal has also had an impact, as well as staff shortages across health and social care, hospitality and farming. Labour’s own internal polling shows little public disagreement with the statement that: “Politicians blame immigrants or people on benefits to distract from their own failures.”

 

Also earlier in the article, the author recounts how, not surprisingly, Murdoch and other right wing media had New Labour on the backfoot on immigration and successfully framed the whole debate. Wonder what their next move will be assuming BoJo WA goes through - with or without him (Uxbridge supposedly running very, very close :D)

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13 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Of all the places used to evoke fears about migration, Free Northman evokes Fiji? The place that has had multiple military dictators seize power in the name of protecting indigenous people from those evil, evil Indians? Honestly, it's a study in racial prejudice going the other way, in terms of Fijian Indians being politically screwed.

I mean it is instructive that of all the countries where colonial immigrants outnumbered the indigenous people (though not any more) to use as an example of bad immigration nhe chooses one of the very few where the immigrants aren't white.

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On 11/14/2019 at 1:35 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Was seriously waiting for someone to make that knee jerk response - a response which merely proves the point.

If the disadvantage of becoming a minority in one’s country is then self evident as you so aptly pointed out, it should clearly be avoided at all costs.

Indeed. If the majority can easily define itself.

It it can you're a patriot ; if it can't "at all costs" makes you a terrorist.

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The thing is, the chance of becoming a minority in your own country really only arises in history with invasion and colonisation. When was the last time the "natives" of a country became the minority through natural individual migration flows?

Some white people in the USA, Australia and New Zealand are worried. But they are the colonists, so it doesn't count.

Without Google searching the only examples of natives becoming the minority I can think of is through imperialist colonisation or outright invasion and ethnic cleansing.

Normal economic migration if far too slow to create a "native" minority. After 2 maybe 3 generations the descendants of immigrants are now locals in every sense with far more in common with people who's families have been citizens for a few centuries than differences. It's why the daughter of immigrants can talk as equally xenophobically about immigration as people like JRM and BJ.

 

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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-50438177

 

So there's been a fire in a student flats in Bolton where the fire appears to have spread very quickly around the outside of the building along the cladding.

Thankfully everyone seems to have got out fine but... fuck. Two years since Grenfell and the only action we've had is a hasty testing of multiple blocks, twice, because the first one said it was all unsafe so they had to use a different test that told them it was safe, and a report that laid the blame on firefighters and the people inside the block for their deaths.

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19 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

What did I accuse you of saying that you didn't say? I asked you what British culture was first. I more recently asked how immigration was ruining this. You seem to think your initial post didn't take this position which I find debatable at best. It was full of your usual hedging language saying "some people see..." etc. Etc. By which you are able to say nope that's not my position that's just what some people say. 

And people did try to engage with you in this thread but the levels of intellectual dishonesty, deflection and weasel wording to establish plausible deniability make it a frustrating endeavour and I don't know why I'm bothering now. 

Please he doesn’t explicitly say ruin. He just complains about change. Which people do when they think the change is bad but who cares. 

And really, how could British people enjoy significant culture aspects of it such as drinking tea, and eating crumpets and doing and being other supposedly British things, with the knowledge that there are a lot of white,  Christian, foreigners mostly English speaking immigrants in their country? Totally unfair expectation. You’re failure to see the rationality of their fears as totally reasonable instead of basic xenophobia is why people are turning to ultra-bigoted parties like UKip and need to severely cripple their country’s economy and reduce political standing globally—what other choice do they have? 

21 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

Citation needed.

Citation needed. What large change, where? Where has an influx of mostly educated, white, Christian eastern Europeans caused major, widespread problems in the UK?

Where are these problems? What is the location of these "ghettos" (Racist Dogwhistling Term #327 when applied to Poles)?

What areas have changed within a few years, and how?

This never happened. What did happen is that you claimed that some British people felt that their sense of national identity was under threat from European immigration but then failed to explain how.

This is the point made previously: that people (or at least some people) who voted for Brexit for irrational reasons, that they "felt" that their culture/way of life/whatever was under threat from European immigration but when challenged, have never been able to articulate why, in specific terms this is so. This then falls back on an appeal to ask people who have rationally seen the economic, social and political arguments for Brexit and found them wanting (if not actually non-existent) to surrender to a bunch of snowflakes who want to leave the EU because it will make them feel better because reasons.

These questions are so unfair to ask. I mean isn’t it enough to just say “I want to protect muh culture,”? 

No one has ever used that excuse for simply being xenophobic or racist.

I’m being sarcastic. 

10 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The thing is, the chance of becoming a minority in your own country really only arises in history with invasion and colonisation. When was the last time the "natives" of a country became the minority through natural individual migration flows?

Some white people in the USA, Australia and New Zealand are worried. But they are the colonists, so it doesn't count.

Without Google searching the only examples of natives becoming the minority I can think of is through imperialist colonisation or outright invasion and ethnic cleansing.

Normal economic migration if far too slow to create a "native" minority. After 2 maybe 3 generations the descendants of immigrants are now locals in every sense with far more in common with people who's families have been citizens for a few centuries than differences. It's why the daughter of immigrants can talk as equally xenophobically about immigration as people like JRM and BJ.

 

More than a few quite sadly. But yeah, they typically don’t see the irony. “No one wants to be a minority in their own country,” so what about the entire ethnic groups that are already a minority in their country? The implication of course is that the country belongs to whites—no matter how long a you or your family have been here, if not you’re not whites, the country doesn’t really belong to you  and it would be a travesty if whites weren’t in the majority anymore. Practically genocide for them. 

Also, yes it’s pretty inevitable most immigrants and the descendants being turning to have more in common with their neighbors than their distant cousins in the country they originally hailed from. 

There’s an interesting scene from the Sopranos that you’re statement reminded me of: particularly the part after 1:36

The Italian-American mobsters who pride themselves on being Italian have very little understanding of the cultural tensions of their grandfather’s homeland. They are totally flummoxed with the recent Italian immigrant’s issue with Columbus based purely on the region he held from. Because, they are first and foremost Americans. 

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The Metropolitan Police is investigating the Brexit Party and the Conservatives for electoral fraud after Farage's claim that he and other Brexit Party members were offered peerages to stand down in the election.

My feeling on this is that Farage outright lied about this and the BP could get in a fair bit of trouble for making the claim.

Quote

 

The Italian-American monsters who pride themselves on being Italian have very little understanding of the cultural tensions of their grandfather’s homeland. They are totally flummoxed with the recent Italian immigrant’s issue with Columbus based purely on the region he held from. Because, they are first and foremost Americans. 

 

True of most nations, but I think Americans take it to a new level, with some Americans still saying they're Irish, Polish, German, Italian or whatever when they are five, six, seven or more generations removed from those times, have never visited those countries and know next to nothing about them.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Metropolitan Police is investigating the Brexit Party and the Conservatives for electoral fraud after Farage's claim that he and other Brexit Party members were offered peerages to stand down in the election.

My feeling on this is that Farage outright lied about this and the BP could get in a fair bit of trouble for making the claim.

True of most nations, but I think Americans take it to a new level, with some Americans still saying they're Irish, Polish, German, Italian or whatever when they are five, six, seven or more generations removed from those times, have never visited those countries and know next to nothing about them.

Please; they drink green Guinness on St Patrick’s Day. And one day might stop abbreviating it to St ‘Patty’ (when it should be Paddy).

As good as being born there!

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4 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Please; they drink green Guinness on St Patrick’s Day. And one day might stop abbreviating it to St ‘Patty’ (when it should be Paddy).

As good as being born there!

Yeah this, cinco de Mayo, etc there’s just a reason for people to get drunk(or drunker), in the day without feeling bad. 

Ask most of the people what they think of the religious divisions between the Catholics and Protestants, and a good few will probably ask what a Protestant is, and the vast the majority will ask what the hell you’re talking about in general. 

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Metropolitan Police is investigating the Brexit Party and the Conservatives for electoral fraud after Farage's claim that he and other Brexit Party members were offered peerages to stand down in the election.

My feeling on this is that Farage outright lied about this and the BP could get in a fair bit of trouble for making the claim.

True of most nations, but I think Americans take it to a new level, with some Americans still saying they're Irish, Polish, German, Italian or whatever when they are five, six, seven or more generations removed from those times, have never visited those countries and know next to nothing about them.

 That quite frankly could be very  annoying. 

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