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UK Politics: Spaffed up the wall while chuntering from a sedentary position


Chaircat Meow

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13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

You did not. This sounds like an easily-sourced claim. Provide it.

Its a book. You can go read it or choose not to. I won't be typing it all out for you.

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Okay, just one. If you can. One "ghetto" in the UK where EU immigrants have been pushed into and refused to integrate with the rest of the country.

Lol. Did I say this? You haven't been paying attention.

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I don't think you know what "strawman" means, given you constantly use it outside of the correct context. I suggest brushing up on this knowledge.

I mean, you are constantly arguing against positions I'm not taking so it seems pretty appropriate.

 

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:
3 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

I answered your question. Read what I wrote.

You recommended reading a book. You didn’t even cite specific evidence presented in said book. You just name dropped a bloody book. If you think that the book had studies/polls that demonstrated your claim just cite the goddamn studies/polls man. 

Seriously, if someone asks me for proof of my claim of white-supremacy being a bigger problem amongst republicans than Democrats I would cite polls where most of  them(republicans) say it’d be a bad thing  if America didn’t have a majority white population.

I wouldn’t just say read x book on Republicans being racist. Because that would be  really stupid and I probably would give credence to idea that I’m merely a lazy fool. 

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Again you are constantly straw-manning or being deliberately obtuse. I said Britain has a history of clustering of immigrants into small areas. There are numbers of places throughout the country where this has happened and I grew up in one.

@Werthead requests were reasonable; give some examples of this being the case of Eastern European immigrants. Point out where arethe getos. What actual proof do you have that they’ve generally isolated themselves and are refusing to interact with those outside their venue? 

If you cannot do any of that you probably  you probably shouldn’t have brought issue of gettos up in the first place because it is irrelevant. 

There was no point to it. 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Sorry you are wrong, it was happening constantly. You only have to go a couple of pages back to see certain posters sneering about 'cups of tea' to show that if you suggest that Britain has some sort of national identity you are some rampant racist. If you are denying that people who were complaining about immigration levels weren't called racist then I don't know what this entire conversation was about

Sorry, you seem to have willfully missed my point. You think Britain has a national identity?  Fine. I never said it didn't.  You want to severely hurt it’s economy and global standing just to severely slow down the rate of immigrants who are mostly English, speaking, secular, Christians with age old defense of just wanting to protect your culture? I’m going to ask what specific parts do you feel are threatened with change. If you cannot provide specifics other than some vague sense the fear of the immigrant population growing, I’m not going to pretend nor do I think anyone should pretend, that there’s not at least a very high probability you’re just  espousing basic xenophobia. 

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

My point was always that having large scale rapid immigration , immigration that the populace have no democratic way to complain about or control, whilst simultaneously telling anyone with any concerns that they are racist and should shut up, will only push people further to the right.

Honestly, I think you and others like you who moan about this idea of people supporting racist, homophobic, and other bigoted politicians, because others have called them xenophobic or racist  just provides  a convenient cover for them to exercise their bigotry. Maybe it’s just possible, their concerns are grounded more xenophobia if not straight up racism. 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I won't however claim that people vote rationally. They mostly do not. That also includes those who voted Remain btw. There is obviously a level of irrationality in all elections and votes. The point I was making originally was that the behaviour of those on the left and in the media only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think there are many populations on the planet that deal well with high levels of change and immigration in such small periods of time

The only change you’ve actually cited so far is the foreign-born population increased.

You haven’t actually cited changes in communities ability to enjoy  communal traditions, social activities, or local ordinances majorly effected by the influx of Eastern Europeans. 

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Look guys you just have to accept that my family's presence in the UK is a big time threat to HoI's way of life because we open our presents on Christmas eve. I mean it's not as if we expect you all to do it but with that sort of carryon where will we stop?


ps Anyone arguing that the profileration of Polski Skleps hasn't been a great thing is an eedjit but we could definitely use a few more entrepeneurial Polish souls opening genuinely good Pierogi places.

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Coming back to the Observer/Guardian article that Werthead posted, is it fair to agree with the view that right-wing trash tabloids tried to create a perception that EU immigration was somehow a threat, and the then (Left in name only) New Labour government went on the defensive allowing the debate to be framed along the lines of EU immigration being potentially detrimental culturally or in terms of social services - obviously forced into it by the opposition as well, but with their big majorities they need to take most of the responsibility. This perception about EU immigrants somehow putting a strain caught on in economically stagnant former industrial heartlands, some of which might have had some recent levels of recent EU immigration, but others might probably have actually had very few immigration. With these regions then voting Leave, politicians' perceptions seem to have been reinforced that voters in these traditionally Labour strongholds have this view that the new immigrants somehow were a strain, or at least at the rate at which they were coming was an issue, and that that view needed be addressed/pandered to.  
 

It's obviously very clear with the Tories, BxP/UKIP, but you can also see it in the intra-party debate in Labour with traditional (McCluskey) and Northern Labour (Andy Burnham) trying to push back against the activist/youth/North London non-Jewish/non-elite Labour wings.

If you agree with this that it's about perceptions and perceptions about perceptions, then it's actually totally irrelevant if EU immigrants flocked together (like lower income non-EU immigrants in London have often tended to do) or didn't.  The cultural impact on any British identity actually seems pretty small. Did social services come under strain? Maybe, you read some anecdotal evidence often, but it doesn't actually matter what the reality is if the perception game had already been won.
 

What would be interesting to figure out if the tabloids were playing out someone's strategic game or merely randomly stirring up trouble.

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WRT Brexit, of course actual/real migration and its effects are irrelevant in the Brexit debate.

Who voted Brexit, the migration plagued hellhole named London, or the "lilywhite" Exeter English man that feels threatened in his national identity for whom London is hardly a British city anymore.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

WRT Brexit, of course actual/real migration and its effects are irrelevant in the Brexit debate.

Who voted Brexit, the migration plagued hellhole named London, or the "lilywhite" Exeter English man that feels threatened in his national identity for whom London is hardly a British city anymore.

 

 

Good point, there was a Rory Stewart interview where he mentioned some of his (former) constituents in Cumbria bringing up immigration and that being as irrelevant as his father in rural Scotland fulminating about crime. The psychology of why generally landed rural folk in the South-West, the shires and Cumbria formed their view on immigration might probably be a little different from that of (former ?) Labour voters in the 'Red Wall' though, even if they arrived at the same view in the end.

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Even if the conservative claim of Labour letting in 840K per year was to happen, that's still too slow of a rate of immigration to actually have a significant cultural impact long term. Any cultural replacement argument is xenophobic, its as simple as that. The only question is what, if anything, should be done to reduce that irrational opinion? Do you give these people up as beyond help and just push on with rational immigration policies? Or do you take it seriously that there's a non-negligible number of voters who believe this kind of thing and attempt to address those irrational fears without pandering to them? Or do you pander to those irrational fears for reasons of electoral expediency? 

To some extent it doesn't matter if there are East-European ghettos, or Islamic no-go zones in Britain where Shariah law is in effect and not British law. A lot (apparently) of people believe these things are true, and this is influencing their thinking and voting choices and their social discourse. A fear might be based in fantasy, but the fear is still real.

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9 hours ago, john said:

It’s like his team have been watching episodes of The Good Wife - just say anything to muddy up the waters.  I didn’t sweat back then, ‘cause of the Falklands.  I was at a pizza party.  It couldn’t be proven conclusively that the photo wasn’t doctored.

A pizza party? Seriously? That's not exactly going to convince the conspiracy nuts of his innocence! :rofl:

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1 hour ago, felice said:

A pizza party? Seriously? That's not exactly going to convince the conspiracy nuts of his innocence! :rofl:

Especially if it was the pizza parlour where the Clintons supposedly based their child sex ring. 

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What was Buckingham Palace PR thinking could be achieved by Andrew fronting for an interview? Could anything good come from it? Seems to me like there were only downsides and no upsides. I would think the only public thing that might be of any value would be a media statement and no questions. No one would be convinced by such a thing, but he's less likely to make his reputation and suspicion of involvement any worse by it.

Then again, is someone (or a bunch of somones) is so out of touch that they truly think they did nothing wrong when they actually did something wrong, I suppose they would think it was a great idea to do an interview and clear their name once and for all.

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1 hour ago, felice said:

A pizza party? Seriously? That's not exactly going to convince the conspiracy nuts of his innocence! :rofl:

Heh, I hadn’t spotted that.  I mean that would really be an Uber conspiracy stretching all across the US political spectrum to the heart of the royal family.

4 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

What was Buckingham Palace PR thinking could be achieved by Andrew fronting for an interview? Could anything good come from it? Seems to me like there were only downsides and no upsides. I would think the only public thing that might be of any value would be a media statement and no questions. No one would be convinced by such a thing, but he's less likely to make his reputation and suspicion of involvement any worse by it.

I just read in the BBC’s latest analysis that some senior press guy on his staff quit shortly before the interview, which would suggest he did it against advice.

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1 hour ago, john said:

Heh, I hadn’t spotted that.  I mean that would really be an Uber conspiracy stretching all across the US political spectrum to the heart of the royal family.

I just read in the BBC’s latest analysis that some senior press guy on his staff quit shortly before the interview, which would suggest he did it against advice.

That would be Jason Stein, former advisor to Amber Rudd and spokesperson for Liz Truss. Such a glowing history of employers...

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9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The only question is what, if anything, should be done to reduce that irrational opinion? Do you give these people up as beyond help and just push on with rational immigration policies? Or do you take it seriously that there's a non-negligible number of voters who believe this kind of thing and attempt to address those irrational fears without pandering to them? Or do you pander to those irrational fears for reasons of electoral expediency? 

This is exactly the issue at the heart of the matter.

And then of course there is 'what should be done' vs what politicians will actually do or how they think they can get electoral mileage out of this.

Labour seem to be divided - let's see which wing wins out in the manifesto.  But the worst thing they can do is go with pro-immigration now, but like New Labour later pretend there might be issues around how that immigration is taking place and that concerns need to be listened to. That kind of thing creates a negative atmosphere for immigrants who came here legally. If you are pro-immigration, also make the argument for it and stick with it - but unlikely to happen, the next Leader or the one after can always change his/her mind and decide they need that particular segment of Leave voters again.

Lib Dems - addressing pro-immigration through being pro-EU - these are obviously related, but not the same. I actually don't know what their stance on non-EU immigration is. 

Tories - past masters at duplicity. Sound explicitly nasty and blow dog whistles to appeal to the xenophobic camp, but traditionally please business by giving them access to cheap labour (and of course to higher end skills as well). With cheap EU labour off the table, will be interesting to see what they do in the end. Yes, NHS and care workers they already told us about, as well as seasonal farm workers. Likely they just let people overstay illegally as well in places like London as long as business is happy.  Until immigration becomes a hot topic again and the next Theresa May brings out the vans again.

 

 

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On 11/17/2019 at 3:09 PM, john said:

 

Ignore above. 

In least surprising news ever Prince Andrew has been accused of dropping the N bomb during a meeting in 2012. The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree. Cant link for some reason 

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/muslim-voters-swing-marginal-seats-research

 

But the more significant news is that the NHS has the Tories running scared. First, the reversal in the decision to cut corporation tax allows them to say they 'found' another 6bn for the NHS. And this is the latest (finally an NHS fix for the pension tax mess created by Osbourne):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/doctors-tax-bills-to-be-paid-by-nhs-to-avoid-winter-staffing-crisis-bb9slk0tc

 

Funny though how they do nothing for 2.5 years (or even in the 4.5 years since they won a simple majority) and try to fix it in the last month before elections. We should have more elections!

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2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Ignore above. 

In least surprising news ever Prince Andrew has been accused of dropping the N bomb during a meeting in 2012. The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree. Cant link for some reason 

For a family not known for intellectual achievements, this is not surprising at all. 

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:



Presented without comment.

Certainly not defending his comments in the slightest and i still think he is a reprehensible POS but i do feel that in the interests of not inadvertently spreading misinformation, that news story is from 2013. As I said, no excuse, but i think its important that all of the news out there is accurate and not misleading. Otherwise a more current story will come along and people will shrug it off. 

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8 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Certainly not defending his comments in the slightest and i still think he is a reprehensible POS but i do feel that in the interests of not inadvertently spreading misinformation, that news story is from 2013. As I said, no excuse, but i think its important that all of the news out there is accurate and not misleading. Otherwise a more current story will come along and people will shrug it off. 


Fair enough didn't look closely enough at that.

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