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Angel Eyes

Robb lost his purpose and that's why he lost the War.

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Robb set out to rescue his father and sisters and help his mother's house. But after declaring himself King, he didn't try to rescue Sansa and Arya (like demanding their release or sending a team) and because he made no efforts to help them, his mother felt the need to use Jaime Lannister as a bargaining chip. Would the Red Wedding have been enacted if Jaime was still a hostage?

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Robb set out to rescue his father and sisters and help his mother's house. But after declaring himself King, he didn't try to rescue Sansa and Arya (like demanding their release or sending a team) and because he made no efforts to help them, his mother felt the need to use Jaime Lannister as a bargaining chip. Would the Red Wedding have been enacted if Jaime was still a hostage?

That certainly is an important point. The kingdom idea actually prevented Robb from getting what he came to do - rescue his family. Sure, Ned was dead, but Sansa was still alive.

Having his own kingdom essentially made all of Westeros outside his 'kingdom' his new enemies (perhaps aside from Dorne while they were truly staying out of it), meaning his chances to get the Lannisters to free his sister were approaching zero even while he was not yet defeated in the field.

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Robb set out to rescue his father and sisters and help his mother's house. But after declaring himself King, he didn't try to rescue Sansa and Arya (like demanding their release or sending a team) and because he made no efforts to help them, his mother felt the need to use Jaime Lannister as a bargaining chip. Would the Red Wedding have been enacted if Jaime was still a hostage?

We don't know for sure.

But the Blackfish may or may not have executed Jaime since without Jaime he has nothing to hold off Tywin with. But then again emotion and maintaining an image of strength might have made him execute Jaime. But since it never happened we don't know what would have gone down.

Personally I do think that the Blackfish would have been too clever to kill Jaime in a fit of anger but he could well have tried to ensure that Jaime died while at the same time milk something of use out of the Kingslayer.

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Robb painted himself into a corner.  It's not a good idea to take the river lands away from the kingdom of Westeros.  The Lannisters will never allow themselves to get cut off from the east.  The value of the river lands is high enough to motivate Joffrey's advisors to recommend keeping it. 

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It doesn't matter if Jaime is a hostage or what Robb does or not.

Robb was doomed the moment Renly died and he had nothing to do with it, and couldn't prevent if no matter what he did.

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35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It doesn't matter if Jaime is a hostage or what Robb does or not.

Robb was doomed the moment Renly died and he had nothing to do with it, and couldn't prevent if no matter what he did.

While the earlier points have merit, I am inclined to agree with this. I think Renly would have been willing to part with the North and the Riverlands and if Robb could have married Sansa to a Tyrell, would have locked in Highgarden as an ally.

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

While the earlier points have merit, I am inclined to agree with this. I think Renly would have been willing to part with the North and the Riverlands and if Robb could have married Sansa to a Tyrell, would have locked in Highgarden as an ally.

I don't see why Renly would change his mind and part with the North and Riverlands all of sudden. Renly's thought on the matter are pretty clear (If I remember right) when he's talking to Cat about a possible alliance. 

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Renly makes it very clear that he is not willing to part with either the North or the Riverlands. Robb can call himself king all day long - that he concedes, and goes there much farther than the Targaryens went with the kingdoms they conquered (them allowing the Martells to keep their titles was a pretty big concession which was part of their special treaty) - but he also makes it very clear that he would only allow a change in styles and titles - not in actual political reality. There 'King Robb' would have to remain 'King Renly's' loyal subject just the way the Starks were to the Targaryens and King Robert before.

Renly was not much of a stickler with tradition (also created the Rainbow Guard and didn't bother its members with vows of chastity or forcing them to give up lands and titles - Bryce Caron is still a lord besides being a sworn brother of the order) but he knows what he wants and how to get it.

He would have eaten Robb alive, and he would have shown no mercy ... but he would have done it with a smile.

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Robb already knew that Renly would wanted homage, and still send Catelyn.

If Renly had took KL, I don't see why Robb would not bend the knee. Renly would have Sansa, Ice and the heads of Cersei and Joffrey to negotiate, and Robb would need the Redwine fleet to go back north with the IB holding MC...

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Robb didn't declare himself king, he was drafted into being king. He's a kid and under the circumstances we see below, I don't see how he walks this back without losing support.

There's also a passage below about how uncomfortable Robb is in his king position. This is just one of several. I can't find it right now, but there's a passage in AGOT Bran where Robb shows Bran how scared he is to step into his father's shoes as Lord. Robb took his responsibility as king seriously, but he sure as hell didn't want that burden.

 

 

AGOT Catelyn XI

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son's feet.

"I'll have peace on those terms," Lord Karstark said. "They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well." He eased his longsword from its scabbard. "The King in the North!" he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.

Maege Mormont stood. "The King of Winter!" she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords. And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one … yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father's hall:

"The King in the North!"

"The King in the North!"

"THE KING IN THE NORTH!"

~ end of chapter ~


ACOK Catelyn I

As they waited in Riverrun's Great Hall for the prisoner to be brought before them, she saw Robb push back the crown so it rested upon the thick auburn mop of his hair; moments later, he moved it forward again; later he gave it a quarter turn, as if that might make it sit more easily on his brow. It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of fifteen years.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb didn't declare himself king, he was drafted into being king. He's a kid and under the circumstances we see below, I don't see how he walks this back without losing support.

There's also a passage below about how uncomfortable Robb is in his king position. This is just one of several. I can't find it right now, but there's a passage in AGOT Bran where Robb shows Bran how scared he is to step into his father's shoes as Lord. Robb took his responsibility as king seriously, but he sure as hell didn't want that burden.

 

 

AGOT Catelyn XI

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son's feet.

"I'll have peace on those terms," Lord Karstark said. "They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well." He eased his longsword from its scabbard. "The King in the North!" he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.

Maege Mormont stood. "The King of Winter!" she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords. And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one … yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father's hall:

"The King in the North!"

"The King in the North!"

"THE KING IN THE NORTH!"

~ end of chapter ~


ACOK Catelyn I

As they waited in Riverrun's Great Hall for the prisoner to be brought before them, she saw Robb push back the crown so it rested upon the thick auburn mop of his hair; moments later, he moved it forward again; later he gave it a quarter turn, as if that might make it sit more easily on his brow. It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of fifteen years.

 

It was a burden for him, that he didn't ask for. But once he got it, he for sure also didn't want to loose it again.

ACOK Catelyn I

“Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It’s her brother she’ll want, as you know full well.” She had told him as much before, but Catelyn was finding that kings do not listen half so attentively as sons. “I can’t release the Kingslayer, not even if I wanted to. My lords would never abide it.” “Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly. Half your lords would like to murder Lannister in his cell. If he should die while he’s your prisoner, men will say—” “—that he well deserved it,” Robb finished. “And your sisters?” Catelyn asked sharply. “Will they deserve their deaths as well? I promise you, if any harm comes to her brother, Cersei will pay us back blood for blood—” “Lannister won’t die,” Robb said. “No one so much as speaks to him without my warrant. He has food, water, clean straw, more comfort than he has any right to. But I won’t free him, not even for Arya and Sansa.” 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was a burden for him, that he didn't ask for. But once he got it, he for sure also didn't want to loose it again.

ACOK Catelyn I

“Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It’s her brother she’ll want, as you know full well.” She had told him as much before, but Catelyn was finding that kings do not listen half so attentively as sons. “I can’t release the Kingslayer, not even if I wanted to. My lords would never abide it.” “Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly. Half your lords would like to murder Lannister in his cell. If he should die while he’s your prisoner, men will say—” “—that he well deserved it,” Robb finished. “And your sisters?” Catelyn asked sharply. “Will they deserve their deaths as well? I promise you, if any harm comes to her brother, Cersei will pay us back blood for blood—” “Lannister won’t die,” Robb said. “No one so much as speaks to him without my warrant. He has food, water, clean straw, more comfort than he has any right to. But I won’t free him, not even for Arya and Sansa.” 

Robb losing the crown pretty much means him losing the North.

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58 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robb losing the crown pretty much means him losing the North.

Yup.

AGOT Eddard XII

"Oh, but it was, my lord," Cersei insisted. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

 

And because of their support, it means the entire Stark family may need to be wiped out if the IT wanted to be certain of no future problems, not just Robb.

ADWD Jon I

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

Edited by Lollygag

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Robb losing the crown pretty much means him losing the North.

 

39 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yup.

AGOT Eddard XII

"Oh, but it was, my lord," Cersei insisted. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

 

And because of their support, it means the entire Stark family may need to be wiped out if the IT wanted to be certain of no future problems, not just Robb.

ADWD Jon I

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

Well, if he risked his crown for other stupid things anyway, he should have at least risked it for something beneficial, that would also get his sitter out of danger. A Tyrell marriage alliance would have been beneficial. Robb thought so himself.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

 

Well, if he risked his crown for other stupid things anyway, he should have at least risked it for something beneficial, that would also get his sitter out of danger. A Tyrell marriage alliance would have been beneficial. Robb thought so himself.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

My point was only clarifying that Robb didn't crown himself as the OP claimed.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

My point was only clarifying that Robb didn't crown himself as the OP claimed.

sorry then. And I agree, he didn't want the crown or crown himself

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was a burden for him, that he didn't ask for. But once he got it, he for sure also didn't want to loose it again.

 

Not true, if anything Robb hated being King:

“Bloody Rickard Karstark as well. And Theon Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister, and all the rest of them. Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shoutingKing in the North, King in the North , I told myself . . . sworeto myself . . . that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies . . . now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get soconfused?

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