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Angel Eyes

Robb lost his purpose and that's why he lost the War.

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On 11/10/2019 at 1:33 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Robb set out to rescue his father and sisters and help his mother's house. But after declaring himself King, he didn't try to rescue Sansa and Arya (like demanding their release or sending a team) and because he made no efforts to help them, his mother felt the need to use Jaime Lannister as a bargaining chip. Would the Red Wedding have been enacted if Jaime was still a hostage?

Robb also set out to aid the Tullys. His goal was not just rescuing his father and sisters, but to defend the Riverlands from Tywin's forces and lift the siege on Riverrun. 

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57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not true, if anything Robb hated being King:

“Bloody Rickard Karstark as well. And Theon Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister, and all the rest of them. Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shoutingKing in the North, King in the North , I told myself . . . sworeto myself . . . that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies . . . now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get soconfused?

Where did I claim that he didn't hate it? I just said he didn't want to loose the crown - that's all. Which is evident by the quote in #13

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13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My point was only clarifying that Robb didn't crown himself as the OP claimed.

I was wrong saying that Robb crowned himself, but I consider it a misstep that he didn’t try to rescue his sisters, which led to Catelyn freeing Jaime. Was it really worth the lives of his sisters to have a crown? Ned got caught up in battles, but I can excuse him because he didn’t know where Lyanna was. Robb did, and despite knowing what Joffrey would do if he felt like it, chose to follow his pride into the Westerlands. And it claimed his life.

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5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was wrong saying that Robb crowned himself, but I consider it a misstep that he didn’t try to rescue his sisters, which led to Catelyn freeing Jaime. Was it really worth the lives of his sisters to have a crown? Ned got caught up in battles, but I can excuse him because he didn’t know where Lyanna was. Robb did, and despite knowing what Joffrey would do if he felt like it, chose to follow his pride into the Westerlands. And it claimed his life.

You're not the only one who forgets ;). I'm bad with names and all too often I see a name on here and I have no idea who that is.

I don't disagree but I just see it more from the angle of Robb being a 15/16 year old kid who got the Lordship and then Kingship dumped on him in addition to massive family tragedies and a war with Tywin Lannister of all people. He was in waaaaayyyyyy over his head and anything other than a few major mistakes would be unbelievable for me in terms of characterization.

He didn't really have any good options for rescuing the girls. No one else came up with a good plan either apparently. GRRM wrote the story that way because that's where he needed the characters to be. What you're seeing as Robb being distracted by war - I mean if someone's attacking you, you have to deal with that right now, no? Tywin was waiting for him when he crossed the Twins. Robb can't save anyone if he's under attack. That's always the priority. There's no incentive to give them the girls if the Lannisters are winning.

Bold: The kingship wasn't Robb's choice. He got drafted. You'd have to convince the Northerners to stay with the IT and under the circumstances of that time, that wasn't going to happen. No way. Robb was stuck. And after one is crowned, the whole family has a target on them and are in danger. That was the whole point of Robert wanting to kill Viserys and Dany, Ned's gymnastics to hide Jon and Cersei's statement of winning the Game or dying with no middle ground. Can't put that toothpaste back into the tube. Especially when dealing with paranoid, unreasonable and sometimes astonishingly stupid Lannisters.

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8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was wrong saying that Robb crowned himself,

No, you were not. No one forced Robb to be King. No one threatened to abandon him if he became King. Robb was not scared of telling, even threatening his subordinates to get what he wanted. He tells others 'no' in the same meeting.

Robb crowned himself. Him not suggesting does not mean he was not responsible for it. Robb gets excused of everything by parts of the fandom. Cat, Edmure, Theon, the Westerlings, Lysa, the Greatjon,  Rodrik, Karstark, Frey and others are constantly blamed for decisions that Robb makes.

 

What Robb and Stannis do, complain about having to be King, is not an uncommon practice for people in power when things are not going their way. They act like they were forced to be at the top, that they had no agency in it and never wanted it in the first place despite the fact that they could have walked away from it at any point.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you were not. No one forced Robb to be King. No one threatened to abandon him if he became King. Robb was not scared of telling, even threatening his subordinates to get what he wanted. He tells others 'no' in the same meeting.

Robb crowned himself. Him not suggesting does not mean he was not responsible for it. Robb gets excused of everything by parts of the fandom. Cat, Edmure, Theon, the Westerlings, Lysa, the Greatjon,  Rodrik, Karstark, Frey and others are constantly blamed for decisions that Robb makes.

 

What Robb and Stannis do, complain about having to be King, is not an uncommon practice for people in power when things are not going their way. They act like they were forced to be at the top, that they had no agency in it and never wanted it in the first place despite the fact that they could have walked away from it at any point.

He didn't crown himself, he was made King, his bannermen were telling they wouldn't accept other outcome, Robb makes many mistakes, the crown wasn't one because it wasn't a choice.

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't crown himself, he was made King, his bannermen were telling they wouldn't accept other outcome, Robb makes many mistakes, the crown wasn't one because it wasn't a choice.

Do we know his bannermen wouldn't have accepted him not being king?

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Do we know his bannermen wouldn't have accepted him not being king?

When people start shouting things like, this is the only terms i'm willing to sign peace and  the likes, you can see that no,the Northern lords  weren't on board.

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27 minutes ago, frenin said:

When people start shouting things like, this is the only terms i'm willing to sign peace and  the likes, you can see that no,the Northern lords  weren't on board.

So he couldn't have bend the knee to Stannis at this point?

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So he couldn't have bend the knee to Stannis at this point?

Stannis had not declared his intention to kingship at that point. Only Renly.

and even then, Greatjon speachs starts with “ Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither."

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5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So he couldn't have bend the knee to Stannis at this point?

Not without losing the support of the Riverlands, who wanted to support Renly. Not to mention the succesion is murky at this point. At this point in time the incest rumour wasn't being widely spread so as far as Robb and his lords knew Joffrey and Tommen were the King and heir. But no one at Riverrun wants to kneel to them after what the Lannisters did to the Riverlands, so the natural assumption is then Stannis; but Stannis hadn't declared himself King. Renly had, which brought their options to; support the Lannister tyrant, the uncrowned and all-but unsupported Stannis, or Renly who has the weakest claim to begin with. So it was a situation in which no solution would get unanimous support...until GreatJon gave them a fourth option.

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15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So he couldn't have bend the knee to Stannis at this point?

The reasons to not support Renly applies to Stannis too, by the time of his crowning people thought Cersei's children trueborn.

Imo had Stannis ever sent the letter earlier, Robb would've backed him because the boy clearly was looking for a non rupturist  option.

That's not to say that after the crowning, Robb develops a liking for it, i don't know how many times he repeats the I'm King to his mother but the two aren't correlated, only after the Blackwater, some of his principal bannermen start to talk about surrendering but then again, bending the knee to a Lannister was not something he would do.

For what is worth i think that Robb could've saved Sansa and  have the Tyrells, it's just that he and  all his bannermen were pretty shortsighted and  they couldn't see pass  the Kingslayer/girl thing. But there is the possibility that Tyrells went among with the Lannister alliance  too  and  used Sansa as a hostage to submit Robb or directly claim Winterfell for themselves is there. 

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20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was it really worth the lives of his sisters to have a crown? 

Thats the question... Well one of them. The other question is, are the lives of his sister worth a kingdom?

Quote

Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself . . . swore to myself . . . that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies

A child, even a princess can not be worth a whole kingdom. Robb is faced with hard choices, all kings are.

Quote

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. 

Was Sansa worth trading for Jaime, yes. Worth his Kingdoms, no.

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On 11/9/2019 at 7:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Robb set out to rescue his father and sisters and help his mother's house. But after declaring himself King, he didn't try to rescue Sansa and Arya (like demanding their release or sending a team) and because he made no efforts to help them, his mother felt the need to use Jaime Lannister as a bargaining chip. Would the Red Wedding have been enacted if Jaime was still a hostage?

Regardless of whether or not one agrees with the statement in the topic, I do not believe Tywin would have done anything that would have seriously risked Jaime's execution. Not yet at least. Joffrey living and Tommen under his thumb for years? Maybe more likely...

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1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

Regardless of whether or not one agrees with the statement in the topic, I do not believe Tywin would have done anything that would have seriously risked Jaime's execution. Not yet at least. Joffrey living and Tommen under his thumb for years? Maybe more likely...

Not Tywin, but Joffrey

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5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

A child, even a princess can not be worth a whole kingdom. Robb is faced with hard choices, all kings are.

 

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Was Sansa worth trading for Jaime, yes. Worth his Kingdoms, no.

In this world. A kingdom is worth way more than a mere child or a princess. 

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7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats the question... Well one of them. The other question is, are the lives of his sister worth a kingdom?

A child, even a princess can not be worth a whole kingdom. Robb is faced with hard choices, all kings are.

Was Sansa worth trading for Jaime, yes. Worth his Kingdoms, no.

Well, it wasn't worth his life either.

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And all the concerns raised here are why going to war against your king is not a good idea.  So they get Ned back.  What then?  There's no peace until Ned takes the black.  

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17 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't crown himself, he was made King,

He crowned himself. If you are allergic to nuts and someone offers you some nuts and you eat the nuts and have an allergic reaction whose fault is that? Who was responsible for eating the Nuts?

Other suggestions were made before the idea of Robb being Crowned was brought up, they were shot down, some by Robb himself. He is in charge in this situation, he does not have to bend to what others suggest.

Quote

his bannermen were telling they wouldn't accept other outcome,

No. That is wrong, reread the chapter and quote all the bannerman who state they won't accept any other outcome?

Either you are not familiar with the chapter or you are being disingenuous here. For starters only a minority of the Lords of the North were present, the majority were elsewhere and were not consulted on this. Secondly the Lord who suggested it, Greatjon, had a month earlier, before Robb had proven himself on the battlefield, made an actual ultimatum and Robb told him no and put him in his place.

This idea that Robb was forced into it is a kop out.

Quote

 

Robb makes many mistakes, the crown wasn't one because it wasn't a choice.

Yes it was. Others suggested following Stannis, others suggested Renly, some even peace.. Robb was not forced into any of those. The Riverlords, the largest faction of Lords present, wanted Robb to attack Harrenhal and expel the Lannisters from the Riverlands, he said no to that.

You are truly taking away Robb's agency. Robb had a choice, he chose the Crown (like many, many pretenders before him).

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Probably yes. No kingdom is worth his family. That's what he should've understood. 

Having Jaime as a hostage was an opportunity to end the war. Surely Tywin would've withdrawn forces from Riverlands, exchanged Sansa for Jaime and an agreement would've been made. 

There is one huge stinker here - Arya is gone and no one really knows where she is. How will Tywin tell Robb in his letters-"Little Lord, we don't have your other sister. No one knows where she is. Really we don't."

This is something no sane person would believe in. They somehow lost their valuable hostage.

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