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Mario Seddy

Did the targaryens lose their Power base in westeros after Robert's Rebellion ?

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Did the targaryens lose their Power base in westeros after Robert's Rebellion, since they lost everything after Robert's Rebellion including their ancestral seat dragonstone and their castle the red keep. Many houses hated the targaryens after the rebellion including 5 of the 7 Kingdoms. 

Edited by Mario Seddy

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Not completely.

Some time after the Rebellion, Dorne almost raised for Viserys. Jon Arryn had to go there to calm the waters. It is pretty clear that a significant fraction of the Reach is pro-Targaryens. Many other lords are (were?) sympathizers, including in many of these five regions. The North might be an exception but even Umber notes that they owe nothing to the IT because they were bound to the "dragons". In a similar note, Balon Greyjoy also justified his first rebellion because "no Greyjoy ever swore an oath to a Baratheon".

Now. You have to take into account that the Dany and Viserys were kids, something that makes difficult for them to keep and manage whatever support is left. Had their mother survived, things would have been very different.

Also, Robert Baratheon and  in particular Jon Arryn were aware of that and threaded carefully with these issues, eroding the Targaryen base with time. A number of alliances were made, incentives were given to those who wanted to be loyal, relatively small punishments to former loyalists, subtle threats, etc. Examples: Robert-Cersei marriage, Stannis-Selyse marriage, some exiled lords, few who lost status and some of their lands (Darry, Connignton, etc.), Loras squiring for Renly, Arryn promises to Dorne, etc.

Balon Greyjoy actually bet that Robert's support was smaller during his first Rebellion and they would be unable to deal with two threats (former loyalists and ironborn). He was wrong and Robert became a quite popular king. However, we will see that this doesn't extend to "his sons" and the Realm is breaking apart. Many will look with hope to a Targaryen restoration, or what it seems to be one.

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Many other lords are (were?) sympathizers, including in many of these five regions. The North might be an exception but even Umber notes that they owe nothing to the IT because they were bound to the "dragons". In a similar note, Balon Greyjoy also justified his first rebellion because "no Greyjoy ever swore an oath to a Baratheon".

  • Are they?? The only loyalist we ever heard about is Darry and  even Dany calls it bs.
  • We don't hear  about any loyalists more in the Vale, Riverlands and  Stormlands, the Stormlands and  the Vale especially were firmly under their liege.
  • And yet the Greatjon made Robert King, curious enough.
  • And yet the Greyjoys joined the rebellion.

People rationalizing their acts  is not the same as people actually believing what they say or even caring about it.

 

33 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is pretty clear that a significant fraction of the Reach is pro-Targaryens.

Is it?? We have yet to see that fraction because those lords  didn't show their faces and  Mace the Ace  and  Paxter the Sage, paint a different picture.

 

36 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Now. You have to take into account that the Dany and Viserys were kids, something that makes difficult for them to keep and manage whatever support is left. Had their mother survived, things would have been very different.

Just as the Blackfyres and  yet the Blackfyres had far more support Dany and  Viserys ever dreamed about.

 

38 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

However, we will see that this doesn't extend to "his sons" and the Realm is breaking apart. Many will look with hope to a Targaryen restoration, or what it seems to be one.

The Realm is breaking apart  precisely because those sons aren't Robert's real kids, how many of those who would look with hope for a Targ restoration had Robert's son succeed him and  Ned was his regent??

I don't really think many.

 

 

The Targs didn't lose their powerbase completely but  they' ve lost  much.

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We have a very warped view of this thing, with people essentially making up ship up to fill in the blanks. We simply do not know who would have been loyal to Robert if Viserys III had ever tried to regain his throne.

We only have anti-Targaryen POVs in AGoT aside from Daenerys, and we still have no accurate picture how many lords and knights and people might be inclined to rise for Aegon (or later Daenerys) in the immediate future.

The Greyjoy Rebellion is not really proof that Robert could rally the Realm against a Targaryen pretender - it just proves that he could rally the Realm behind him when he wanted to put down a non-exactly-popular Ironborn pirate thug. Those are two very different situations.

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Power base is a rather vague term.  They were not forgotten.  Powerful people were secretly working to put them back in power.  There were loyalists and sympathizers on both sides of the Narrow Sea.  Naturally they can't do this out in the open.  The Martell's, Sealord, Varys, Mopatis, Archon of Tyrosh, Marwyn, to name a few.  The Targaryens are held in high regard by the smallfolk.  What's left of the Velaryons and the Celtigars would likely support a restoration that has a good chance of success.  

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 The Greyjoy Rebellion is not really proof that Robert could rally the Realm against a Targaryen pretender - it just proves that he could rally the Realm behind him when he wanted to put down a non-exactly-popular Ironborn pirate thug. Those are two very different situations.

It's a proof that Robert could rally his alligiance against them, I'd say that the Greyjoy Rebellion is a proof that he could rally the Realm against a Targ pretender, the reason why Euron can do shit freely is the same reason why the Golden Company decided to finally invade Westeros, it's broken, fragmented and suspicious, neither Tommen,nor Cersei can rally the Realm against Euron, because only his victims  would care, just as neither Cersei nor Tommen can rally the Realm against Aegon.

Balon operated on the basis that Robert had about the same support his younger son has right now, had that been true, Robert would've never defeated the Iron born.

 

12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Power base is a rather vague term.  They were not forgotten.  Powerful people were secretly working to put them back in power.  There were loyalists and sympathizers on both sides of the Narrow Sea.  Naturally they can't do this out in the open.  The Martell's, Sealord, Varys, Mopatis, Archon of Tyrosh, Marwyn, to name a few.  The Targaryens are held in high regard by the smallfolk.  What's left of the Velaryons and the Celtigars would likely support a restoration that has a good chance of success.  

 

  • It's not a vague term really.
  • Given that Varys and Illyrio may be trying to pull a Cersei, i wouldn't be so quick to call them loyalist.
  • The Sealord and the Archon are neither loyalists nor sympathizers, they were just witness in a business that had nothing to do with them.
  • Marwyn is not a loyalist either.
  • You're not naming a few, you're naming everyone and many are wrong.
  • So was Robert.
  • The Velaryons are with Stannis and the Celtigars only bent the knee because they were threatened to do so.

 

  

Edited by frenin

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Their power base definitely waned after they lost the rebellion. There were still houses loyal to the Targaryens (like House Darry), but with the loss of their ancestral seat Dragonstone and their former holdings, their support was slim. Some individuals hated the new regime (the Dornish for example because of what Gregor did to Elia) but that is not always equatable with supporting the Targaryens. In short, a few house remained loyal (Darry, the Velaryons and Celtiagars as well I'd imagine) but outside of these, they garnered little support, especially seeing as how the heirs to the dynasty were young and inexperienced and in exile and did not hav dragons. 

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Somebody else, Robert, took control of the military that were theirs.  Robert occupied their keep.  Stannis occupied their island fort.  Tywin murdered most of the family. But that does not mean they lost the heart of the people.  

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On 11/12/2019 at 12:55 PM, frenin said:
  • Are they?? The only loyalist we ever heard about is Darry and  even Dany calls it bs.
  • We don't hear  about any loyalists more in the Vale, Riverlands and  Stormlands, the Stormlands and  the Vale especially were firmly under their liege.
  • And yet the Greatjon made Robert King, curious enough.
  • And yet the Greyjoys joined the rebellion.

People rationalizing their acts  is not the same as people actually believing what they say or even caring about it.

 

Is it?? We have yet to see that fraction because those lords  didn't show their faces and  Mace the Ace  and  Paxter the Sage, paint a different picture.

 

Just as the Blackfyres and  yet the Blackfyres had far more support Dany and  Viserys ever dreamed about.

 

The Realm is breaking apart  precisely because those sons aren't Robert's real kids, how many of those who would look with hope for a Targ restoration had Robert's son succeed him and  Ned was his regent??

I don't really think many.

 

 

The Targs didn't lose their powerbase completely but  they' ve lost  much.

Was the Vale firmly behind its liege? I am genuinely asking because i saw you say something similar in another thread but i thought that, initially at least, part of the Vale (Gulltown, at least) was against Jon Arryn (making Ned’s leaving the Vale more tricky). Have i misremembered that? 

(This post sounds condescending and tongue in cheek but its meant sincerely, it has been a while since I reread so could well be me in error

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18 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Was the Vale firmly behind its liege? I am genuinely asking because i saw you say something similar in another thread but i thought that, initially at least, part of the Vale (Gulltown, at least) was against Jon Arryn (making Ned’s leaving the Vale more tricky). Have i misremembered that? 

(This post sounds condescending and tongue in cheek but its meant sincerely, it has been a while since I reread so could well be me in error

The only House we can't say for certain that wasn't all for Jon is Graftons but even the Corbrays were pardoned and  joined the rebellion at some point. We don't have any mass  desertions like in the Riverlands case and  in the current time the Vale lords  hold old Jon in high regard

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The powerbase were always there.  Lurking and waiting for any signs of weakness.  Varys even worked to create cracks in the Baratheon wall.  Good old Petyr Baelish conveniently got rid of the houses who would resist a Targaryen restoration.  Sure he has plans of his own but Varys must have seen this coming and took advantage of it.  The Sealord of Braavos too has his own plans to restore the Targaryens.  The base was there but it was scared to act until the Baratheon armor cracked. 

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23 hours ago, Big P said:

Sure he has plans of his own but Varys must have seen this coming and took advantage of it. 

Varys mentions he's befuddled by whatever Petyr is up to. Varys and Illyrio don't seem so much Targ powerbase as they have a plan of their own, using Targ restoration as a front, to get their own man on the IT.

The powerbase seem mostly Dornish, and only because they could get a consort out of it, or because Aegon would the son of a Martell princess, and for wanting vengeance against Lannisters. The Hightowers might be supportive, except Euron's sailing for Oldtown. All other prior "supporters" are opportunistic, and have formed or are forming other ties. 

House Darry is basically no more. They had to dig up the daughter of a daughter of a Frey, and it ain't even hers, because it was Lancel's. House Darry seemed pretty much small and insignificant anyway the way it was run over time and time again during the Wo5K. House Mooton is now despised by its own people. Though Dickon Tarly wed to the Mooton daughter might be an interesting ally.

There is pro-Targ sentiment still it seems in the area of Cracklaw Point.

Now I think that many houses will rally in favour of Aegon VI, but not because he's a Targ (it helps), but because he's not Cersei.

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They lost control of their kingdom but they didn't lose support.  A comparison to the Starks is apt.  The Starks lost control of their home but there are still a few who support them in the north.  The Starks are a local power and their support is limited to a few men.  Wayman Manderly.  The Targaryens are an international power and their support is not limited to one location.  The Targaryens are the bigger fish; therefore, their so-called power base is bigger than the Stark's.

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Targaryen Powerbase

  1. Dragons
  2. Claim to the throne
  3. Nobility
  4. Courage
  5. Intelligence
  6. Wealth
  7. Beauty
  8. Loyalty of the houses

I could go on.  The dragons were gone by then.  Robert stole #6 and pissed it all away.  Some of the #8 was lost and the ones they kept could not act.  Viserys had lost most of the above.  Daenerys has dragons, claim to throne, nobility, courage, intelligence, beauty, wealth, and loyalty of powerful people everywhere.  So did they lose their old powerbase?  They lost some of their former base but what they gained (what she gained and earned) far exceed what the family lost.  Daenerys has a power base that would rival any of her ancestors.

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22 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Targaryen Powerbase

  1. Dragons
  2. Claim to the throne
  3. Nobility
  4. Courage
  5. Intelligence
  6. Wealth
  7. Beauty
  8. Loyalty of the houses

I could go on.  The dragons were gone by then.  Robert stole #6 and pissed it all away.  Some of the #8 was lost and the ones they kept could not act.  Viserys had lost most of the above.  Daenerys has dragons, claim to throne, nobility, courage, intelligence, beauty, wealth, and loyalty of powerful people everywhere.  So did they lose their old powerbase?  They lost some of their former base but what they gained (what she gained and earned) far exceed what the family lost.  Daenerys has a power base that would rival any of her ancestors.

Agree with the highlighted.  Viserys was not called a Beggar King for no reason.  He had the title and the right to rule but not the power to take possession.  Daenerys has the title, the right, the power base, and the dragons to take back the Targaryen family lands. 

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If we talk about "claim", yes. Although I am totally on the side of the Targaryens, they have lost, Rhaegar is dead and Robert has taken the Throne.

However, they have not lost their influence, not totally. There are those who would prefer a return of the Targaryens.

It's now clear that we can't talk about legitimacy. The Throne would legitimately belong to Stannis, but who wants the Seven Kingdoms must take them with the armies (or with dragons).

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On 11/22/2019 at 7:51 PM, Marysa Blackfyre said:

If we talk about "claim", yes. Although I am totally on the side of the Targaryens, they have lost, Rhaegar is dead and Robert has taken the Throne.

However, they have not lost their influence, not totally. There are those who would prefer a return of the Targaryens.

It's now clear that we can't talk about legitimacy. The Throne would legitimately belong to Stannis, but who wants the Seven Kingdoms must take them with the armies (or with dragons).

Renly and the Lannisters would disagree with the legality of Stannis' claim.  Look, if the Baratheons are claiming the right to rule because they defeated the Targaryens, the Lannisters can also claim they defeated the Baratheons.  Victory is victory.  It does not have to happen on the battlefield.  Smart people win away from the battlefield.  I am going with "Westeros belongs to the Targaryens because they built the realm."

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On 11/21/2019 at 9:15 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Targaryen Powerbase

  1. Dragons
  2. Claim to the throne
  3. Nobility
  4. Courage
  5. Intelligence
  6. Wealth
  7. Beauty
  8. Loyalty of the houses

I could go on.  The dragons were gone by then.  Robert stole #6 and pissed it all away.  Some of the #8 was lost and the ones they kept could not act.  Viserys had lost most of the above.  Daenerys has dragons, claim to throne, nobility, courage, intelligence, beauty, wealth, and loyalty of powerful people everywhere.  So did they lose their old powerbase?  They lost some of their former base but what they gained (what she gained and earned) far exceed what the family lost.  Daenerys has a power base that would rival any of her ancestors.

The plot seemed to call for the Targaryens to clean house and rid itself of the burdensome Rhaegar, Aerys, and Viserys.  The Mother Of the Dragons can restart the new dynasty of people and dragons. 

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