Euron Greyjoy "Ice or Fire"

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

 

Selam, hello!

Today I want to discuss Euron Greyjoy's side with you. Usually peope thinks Euron works with ice side. Because ice side is bad guys and Euron is bad guy too... But first... I need explain something.

I wanted open another topic about it but for now a brief summary is more appropriate.

Who bad who good?

As readers, we tend to see the ice side as bad and the fire side as good. We think this story is a classic good and bad story. That's how it was done on TV Show. But the show is the world of D&D. ASOIAF is the world of GRRM. And GRRM's perspective is very different from D&D.

GRRM believes everyone can do bad and good thing at the same time. We can be heroes and also bad guys. We can be racist but also we can be anti-war. In stories, we do not need dark lords anymore.

Men are still capable of great heroism. But I don’t necessarily think there are heroes. That’s something that’s very much in my books: I believe in great characters. We’re all capable of doing great things, and of doing bad things. We have the angels and the demons inside of us, and our lives are a succession of choices…[Woodrow Wilson] was a racist who tried to end war. Now, does one cancel out the other? Well, they don’t cancel out the other. You can’t make him a hero or a villain. He was both. And we’re all both.

Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, “Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys.”

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

You can also see traces of these words in books. For example Aemon said these words.

"Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings.""Better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."

So we can say ice or fire side are not pure evil or good. They are both; like a Stark and like a Lannister. I'm a Stark but i can say Stark side ise not pure good and sinless. We saw all. We read it.

This reason do not think fire is good and ice is bad. Probably both sides have their own justification for fighting. There will be people and houses fighting and dying for both sides.

The question is which side will Euron be on?

For the above reasons the majority said ice. I think the opposite. Actually, my main idea is that Euron is on its side. In alliance with the side that he thinks is strong for personal ambition and interests. And I think this side is "fire"

Euron is a sociopath narcissist. Someone who sees himself as a god, worships himself. He wants power, he wants to rule. If you are such a narcissist, you will go wherever you find power. I don't think such a person would want to die.

Euron says he went to Asshai and Valyria. The Valyria part may be a lie, but not the Asshai part. Even if we take it all right, these two cities are on the fire side. The magic of these two cities is based on fire and blood. Most of the wizards of Euron use these spells. So Euron is close by weight with these spells.

I believe the R'hllor faith comes from Asshai. AA legend and prophecy comes from that city anyway. I have no doubt that Euron has learned all this and more. If this ( https://clankingdragon.wordpress.com/2017/09/26/might-makes-wight-qarth-and-asshai/ ) theory is true which i belive it is, then Euron saw fire wights in Asshai. Then he knows now that there is a way not to die and he wants it.

Do not forget the word in their (iron born) faith. It also points to a wight incident. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger."

HINTS

1- When Euron came back, he went after Dany and his dragons. If he was working with the ice, he would have wanted to kill Dany and Dany's dragons. He didn't have to go back to Westeros for that. Somehow he could have gone to Meereen to kill Dany. And if Daario = Euron theory is true, he has had the opportunity many times. As a result, if he wants to have it instead of killing her ... It makes more sense to return home if he wants to be there for her. He even captured wizards who wanted to kill Dany.

Moqorro*: Others seek* Daenerys too.Tyrion*: Have you seen these others in your fires?*Moqorro*: Only their shadows. One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.*

“So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him , I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware.”

2- Euron is now attacking Reach. Why is that? He is not interested in the North or Dorne or Lannister lands, or Storm land, or even the river lands. Reach is very rich right but Euron is not one who loves money. He doesn't care. Places like the old town are under serious threat. Reach's army was very vigorous, they did not see war properly. Rich and powerful. Now, because of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, Reach will fight against Dany. Euron can weaken them. Also, according to Sam, if the old city falls, the realm is torn to pieces. This is definitely beneficial for Dany. At first, even Varys was trying to do something similar. We all know that Euron can't sit in the Iron Throne because he killed the Lannisters. He needs Dany.

3- Aeron's dreams...There are very important signs.

He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

A dark onyx reminded me of black stones. (Also could be Euron's Valyria armor) "blood eye" interesting, like fire and blood? Or Bloodstone Emperor? Euron's personel sigil is a red/blood eye... And the Emperor was worshiped those black stones. He killed her sister and took her throne, like Euron did.

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath.

The Emperor took down all his gods. Euron did same thing (Black Goat, The Stranger are God of death of FM, the great other). Remeber Euron clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he looks like black stone. Euron worships himself.

Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Whoever this woman is must belong to the fire side. Northern gods and others hate fire. They prefer cold and snow. If the Euron was on the ice side, this woman would have ice instead of fire.

And most important to me. This...

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

Dragons, krakens and shpinxes(we saw Valyrian ones, half human half dragon but this could be half dragon half kraken like he wanted) bowed him with horn. He uses those powers.

The bleeding stars(dragons, fire...)... last days (the war is coming)... the world shall be broken and remade (after war someone will do this)... a ned god (he thinks himself) will born from the draves and charnel pits(from dead, he means).

"Her. Daenerys?"Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …""Do I have to be reborn in this same body?" asked Tyrion

R'hllor side (except Melisandre) thinks Dany is AA. She will make the world anew (world shall be broken and remade.) and death itself will bend its knee(ice side will lost) and her men will rise again from dead ( born from the graves and charnel pits)

So Euron believes fire side will win, Dany is AA and if he would be with her, he will be reborn and became immortal. Even he became a god and king... So yes, Euron chose fire side because he thinks fire side will win.

So, what do you think?

[chrisdaw]

There's no need to frame it as fire and ice, doing so isn't really going to provide any insight here. They're symbolic, ice is cold hard logic, devoid of the heart, which is what the reborn Jon will be. Fire is passion, to be ruled and rule from the heart in spite of the brain, Dany. Euron is another thing altogether, he'll be associated with stone to signify his complete lack of empathy. You are however extremely correct about what Euron specifically intends to do and you're right to parallel it with those parts of Dany's story. What Euron is going to do is what happened to Drogo and is what will happen to Dany also. Euron will do it then she will do it, that's why it all aligns.

Euron knows or suspects that dragons can be second lifed, that Targaryens/Valyrians did it. It is what his horn does. He knows to do it requires a sacrifice of one's own child and that the child must have Valyrian blood. It is what happened with Rhaego and he plans to repeat the sequence. Hence why he specifically needs a heir from Dany, a worthy heir. He plans to have a child by Dany, to sacrifice that child and his own mortal life, and to be reborn as a dragon. It is what he means by flying, and jumping from a tower means suicide. He'll never know if he can fly unless he jumps from a tower, means he'll never know if he can second life a dragon unless he kills himself.

Being a dragon is basically becoming a god, the most powerful being in the world with a lifespan many times that of anything else. It is what he means by flying. It is why he views gods of other religions false, as they don't really offer believers a life after death, whereas this practice does.

The dragon is not just a god, it is also heaven. A celestial being, it can allow more than one soul within it. The head of the dragon can allow people's soul within the dragon it to live a second life.

Euron will second life Drogon (won't be by sacrificing Dany's baby, it will be with Arianne's) and Drogon will become the stone beast (a stone kraken dragon), reflecting Euron's blood and nature. At the end of the series Dany will die and she will second life Drogon. Her soul will melt Euron's soul out of Drogon and all his stone, and a massive conventional fire dragon will be reborn. This is why there's all the fire against stone imagery in the series (Dany's wake the dragon dream, harrenhal, Garin the Great, Qarlon the Great). This is the world being born anew. She will then allow entry of other souls (those souls seem to be homeless currently, they are the whispering stars in her dreams/visions) into the dragon with her. This is her defeating death and all those who died in her name being reborn. Also the rising of a Khal after death to ride the night lands with their starry khalasar.

[Narsil4]

The setup for a dual divinity similar to a Yin-Yang seems to be there.   
Though it may only be one god seen from different perspectives..  

✪	☯	⍟
R'hllor		Other
Fire & Ice		Ice & Fire
White & Black	⍟	Black & White
Flame & Shadow		Night & Terror
Weirwood & Ebony		Ebony & Weirwood

 

Quote

A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer sky.

Euron's eyes might suggest he would fall on the Ice(Black) & Fire(Blue?) side. 

[Ser Leftwich]

There are not sides, there are only the actions the individuals take, for their own individual reasons. Euron is not on anyone's side, but his own.

"Fire consumes, but cold preserves." - AFfC - Samwell III

This is from Aemon. It is not a question of good vs. evil. It is just a question of the nature of the magic. They both have costs (and possibly speed factors).

[Platypus Rex]

The God of Death has many faces:  Rh'llor, the Great Other, and Euron's "Storm God" are just 3.  The Ice Demon, the Fire Demon and the Storm Demon are all on the same team, and their goal is the destruction of humanity.

[The Mother of The Others]

Water zombies would have advantages over cold and fire zombies.   Brains run on liquid.   Water zombie magic does the best job then at keeping us functioning in the way we're accustomed to.   It would keep our identities intact through the winter much better than fire could.   So I vote for Euron to open the magical doorway to a 3rd kind of elemental (Drowned God) solution to humanity's crisis.  He would then be the main problem preventing it being used for good, because of his bloodstone emperor ambitions.  He'd abuse the power and save only those who blew him.  So clear that guy out, put Asha & Theon in his place and have Aeron be in charge of actually applying the salvation magic to the masses.

Euron has chosen shadow.  Like the other warlocks.   That's his element.

Mel dipped into shadow but as part of a multicultural magic exchange student program.  She has other things going on besides shadow.  Things that make her more rounded, more confused, more potentially helpful, more in conflict with herself, more likely to read visions askew, more tools to choose from on her batman utility belt.