The Mandalorian (Spoiler Thread)

[felice]

42 minutes ago, red snow said:

But force choking and healing seem more dark side than light especially given the recent film.

Choking, sure, but healing? TRoS spoilers:

Spoiler

Aside from being conceptually bizarre, Rey heals the snake thing to avoid unnecessary fighting and killing, then heals Kylo which is presumably a major factor in turning him to the light side, then he heals her after turning to the light side. None of that suggests dark side to me!

 

[RumHam]

25 minutes ago, felice said:

Choking, sure, but healing? TRoS spoilers:

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Aside from being conceptually bizarre, Rey heals the snake thing to avoid unnecessary fighting and killing, then heals Kylo which is presumably a major factor in turning him to the light side, then he heals her after turning to the light side. None of that suggests dark side to me!

 

 

My interpretation is that it's a dark side power. Yes Rey uses it, but then she also shoots force lightning. Consider all the times force healing/full on resurrection would have been useful (Qui-Gon? Padme?) but the Jedi don't do it. Now that could just be shitty storytelling/a retcon, but I hope not. 

Plus as I mentioned earlier in the thread it all sounds a lot like Darth Palgueis's ability to save people from dying. 

Edit: and it's always the bad guys who miraculously survive being cut in half or exploding.

[Corvinus85]

32 minutes ago, RumHam said:

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Edit: and it's always the bad guys who miraculously survive being cut in half or exploding.

Indeed, and it has to do with the Sith being materialists, as a Jedi isn't afraid to let go. So the ability to heal living bodies may be interpreted as a pathway to the dark side.

But what of the Jedi mind trick? Manipulating someone's mind for your own goals, wouldn't that be of the dark side? Yet the Jedi do it all the time.

For me, there is the Force, and the individuals who can access it in such a way they can manipulate stuff around them, either physical or spiritual. The intent behind using these abilities is what defines where an individual falls.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, felice said:

Choking, sure, but healing? TRoS spoilers:

  Hide contents

Aside from being conceptually bizarre, Rey heals the snake thing to avoid unnecessary fighting and killing, then heals Kylo which is presumably a major factor in turning him to the light side, then he heals her after turning to the light side. None of that suggests dark side to me!

 

i meant it's usually a dark side skill. Otherwise anakin made a major miscalculation going darkside just to learn the skill off palpatine. Rey is a palpatine so has the ability so i took it as a dark side skill. But you are right in that it actually sounds more like a benevolent power. Maybe the difference is light side healing takes energy from the user while dark side energy takes it from others?

I'm guessing baby yoda is a raw force user and as such doesn't even recognise light and dark sides. Wasn't there that giant creature in rebels who laughed at the notion of categorizing the force?

[felice]

3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

But what of the Jedi mind trick? Manipulating someone's mind for your own goals, wouldn't that be of the dark side? Yet the Jedi do it all the time.

It's certainly a morally dangerous ability. Obi-wan only uses it defensively to avoid attention in ANH; Luke's use in RotJ along with the choking is I think intentionally dubious.

3 hours ago, red snow said:

i meant it's usually a dark side skill. Otherwise anakin made a major miscalculation going darkside just to learn the skill off palpatine

There's no evidence Palpatine did have any healing skill; he certainly didn't use the Force to heal Anakin's body in any visible way at the end of RotS. I think the closest dark side power would be just preventing death, most blatantly with Darth Sion from Kotor2, and presumably also used by Darth Maul to survive bisection, and perhaps also Anakin himself to survive long enough for Palpatine to rescue him (or maybe Palpatine uses it on him remotely?). Perhaps it's not Palpatine's lightning that kills him at the end, but ceasing to use the dark side to unnaturally preserve a body that should have been past saving on Mustafar?

I'm pretty sure The Mandalorian was the first onscreen demonstration of Force healing.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, felice said:

It's certainly a morally dangerous ability. Obi-wan only uses it defensively to avoid attention in ANH; Luke's use in RotJ along with the choking is I think intentionally dubious.

There's no evidence Palpatine did have any healing skill; he certainly didn't use the Force to heal Anakin's body in any visible way at the end of RotS. I think the closest dark side power would be just preventing death, most blatantly with Darth Sion from Kotor2, and presumably also used by Darth Maul to survive bisection, and perhaps also Anakin himself to survive long enough for Palpatine to rescue him (or maybe Palpatine uses it on him remotely?). Perhaps it's not Palpatine's lightning that kills him at the end, but ceasing to use the dark side to unnaturally preserve a body that should have been past saving on Mustafar?

I'm pretty sure The Mandalorian was the first onscreen demonstration of Force healing.

I think we may have reached the point where we're thinking about it more than the writers. But you could make an argument that Palpatine was threatened by Anakin and preferred him in his weakened cyborg form. Plus if he healed Anakin it would open up questions about why he let Padme die.

This is unrelated but I was just thinking. Padme Amadala's name is...that. So why when she had the body double did she go around posing as a hand maiden named Padme? 

[karaddin]

Yeah I'm pretty negative on mind control as a concept. I think how OBW uses it in ANH skates by due to being extremely narrow in scope and in extreme self defense, QGJ trying to use it on Watto to accept Republic credits is morally more grey than he is supposed to be as a Jedi (which is somewhat). I think that one comes down to Lucas viewing the morality of mind control rather differently to me.

I'd view what I'm suggesting here with Baby Yoda as related but distinct from the mind trick though, I'd call it Compulsion and realigns what a person wants long term - functionally changing who they are rather than just changing a simple action. OBW actually does this himself in AotC to the death stick vendor where its just a gag for a laugh. @red snow I definitely think its instinctual as well - even realising that its in danger and needs him to save it is all on the instinctual level. 

1 hour ago, felice said:

Perhaps it's not Palpatine's lightning that kills him at the end, but ceasing to use the dark side to unnaturally preserve a body that should have been past saving on Mustafar?

I'm pretty sure The Mandalorian was the first onscreen demonstration of Force healing.

Bolded - yup, it canonised force healing less than 24 hours before it showed up on the big screen in RoS.

And I *love* this head canon for why Anakin actually dies at the end of RotJ. I didn't think the lightning frying his circuits leaving him to die is a plot hole, its perfectly fine, but in thematic terms? This rocks. And can even tie into how he managed to pull the "turn into a force ghost" trick when he doesn't seem to be at a place he should. If he's aware that he's been holding himself together with the force for 20 years then having the realisation that he needs to let go of his attachments finally can be the thing that sparks his enlightenment. All of the people that we see manage it aside from QGJ pass on from their physical existence as a conscious choice that its time to go.

The basis for Force Healing being dark side is really unintuitive, but it does fit in line with how Lucas conceptualizes the Jedi as acceptance of people's fate while the dark side rejects fate in favour of their own will.

[Kalbear]

Obi wan uses mind control to tell someone to stop selling drugs. And he does it entirely thoughtlessly, it's just something to do to someone who is annoying him. 

This is another example of how in the hands of a competent storyteller showing how the jedi were pretty horrifying and anakin had a lot of legitimate reasons to turn away from them would have been compelling. 

[karaddin]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Obi wan uses mind control to tell someone to stop selling drugs. And he does it entirely thoughtlessly, it's just something to do to someone who is annoying him. 

This is another example of how in the hands of a competent storyteller showing how the jedi were pretty horrifying and anakin had a lot of legitimate reasons to turn away from them would have been compelling. 

Thats the death stick vendor gag I referred to  I've actually changed my mind on the failures of Lucas as a story teller when it comes to the Jedi. I think the meta-narrative of Lucas not even realising that what he was depicting showed the PT Jedi as being wrong really works to heighten that narrative once you look back with the perspective of another 20 years along with the cartoons and ST pointing out the failures of the Jedi.

But yeah, they had been in power too long and needed the fall to restore their perspective. TCW cartoon really does do an excellent job with this.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Thats the death stick vendor gag I referred to  I've actually changed my mind on the failures of Lucas as a story teller when it comes to the Jedi. I think the meta-narrative of Lucas not even realising that what he was depicting showed the PT Jedi as being wrong really works to heighten that narrative once you look back with the perspective of another 20 years along with the cartoons and ST pointing out the failures of the Jedi.

 But yeah, they had been in power too long and needed the fall to restore their perspective. TCW cartoon really does do an excellent job with this.

It is admittedly one of the reasons I like Luke going off in TLJ and being bitter and cynical - because he's entirely right. The Jedi failed him, and failed his father, and the way that he ends up saving his father and the whole god damn galaxy is by a direct rejection of the Jedi viewpoint that people cannot be redeemed from the dark side and emotions and connections are failures and problems. He doesn't save the galaxy by beating Vader like Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted; he saves him by sparing his life. 

But Anakin's storyline should be pretty compelling. The Jedi take him away from his mother just like Unkar Plutt takes away Rey. They throw him in an indoctrination program, don't bother un-enslaving his mom and don't even let him see his mother until it's far too late, and force him to hide his love interest. Anakin is given a choice between saving someone who has always been his friend vs. helping the Jedi commit a war crime and knowing that if he doesn't help, he'll be branded an enemy of the Republic. All because he has a very clear vision of his wife dying, and the Jedi can't even help him if they knew about it. That's a pretty awesome hook and downright Shakespearean in its scope of tragedy. The Jedi are shown to be dogmatic, hidebound, unwilling to be proactive in making the universe better, and largely selfish towards their own goals, and this blinds them to their folly and failure. 

And in the end of all of it, Luke learns from Rey and creates a synthesis of the best ideas of the Jedi and the best ideas he has of compassion and caring for his friends, and changes as a result. 

But anyway, Mandalorian is not going to have the baby be remotely evil. 

[karaddin]

Yes yes, there is a reason its called a crack pot  Not that I think a baby instinctively compelling someone like that is quite as black and white as a conscious adult doing it.

And yeah "Hey Yoda, I'm having this premonition - you know, the things we actually get and are real - about someone I care about dying, what should I do?" "Attachments Jedi have not, dead this person will be" isn't the compelling exchange Yoda thought it was.

[Darth Richard II]

Padme’s actual name is something weird if I recall, but old EU, so I dunno.

[RumHam]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It is admittedly one of the reasons I like Luke going off in TLJ and being bitter and cynical - because he's entirely right. The Jedi failed him, and failed his father, and the way that he ends up saving his father and the whole god damn galaxy is by a direct rejection of the Jedi viewpoint that people cannot be redeemed from the dark side and emotions and connections are failures and problems. He doesn't save the galaxy by beating Vader like Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted; he saves him by sparing his life. 

But Anakin's storyline should be pretty compelling. The Jedi take him away from his mother just like Unkar Plutt takes away Rey. They throw him in an indoctrination program, don't bother un-enslaving his mom and don't even let him see his mother until it's far too late, and force him to hide his love interest. Anakin is given a choice between saving someone who has always been his friend vs. helping the Jedi commit a war crime and knowing that if he doesn't help, he'll be branded an enemy of the Republic. All because he has a very clear vision of his wife dying, and the Jedi can't even help him if they knew about it. That's a pretty awesome hook and downright Shakespearean in its scope of tragedy. The Jedi are shown to be dogmatic, hidebound, unwilling to be proactive in making the universe better, and largely selfish towards their own goals, and this blinds them to their folly and failure. 

And in the end of all of it, Luke learns from Rey and creates a synthesis of the best ideas of the Jedi and the best ideas he has of compassion and caring for his friends, and changes as a result. 

Damn that's good. Sadly I don't think Star Wars will be rebooted in our lifetimes. But I wish they would. It's so incoherent and generously 60% of the canon is good. 

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But anyway, Mandalorian is not going to have the baby be remotely evil. 

I don't think the baby is evil, I just think Yoda's species is the new canon's version of the original Sith race. His instinct is to lean towards evil, but the Mando will teach him to be good. Or at least that there's a time and place to force choke someone. The idea of an adorable creature overcoming it's evil nature is at least as old as Gremlins. 

[Jaxom 1974]

24 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

But anyway, Mandalorian is not going to have the baby be remotely evil. 

Part of me belives that the original twist was going to be the Baby is really bad...then the internet meme machine got a hold of it and now they're boxed in and can't make it be evil...of course, now they need to find a reason why Baby Yoda isn't around to help Leia and her Resistance (still can't understand why a legitimate government needs a resistance force against an insurgency, but JJ being a shitty storyteller overall is a differnt thread and discussion...)

I suspect, in the end, Mando and Baby Yoda will have to jet off to the unknown regions to look for Asoka and Sabine while they look for Ezra...

[Kalbear]

9 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Damn that's good. Sadly I don't think Star Wars will be rebooted in our lifetimes. But I wish they would. It's so incoherent and generously 60% of the canon is good. 

I know, right? There is a really, really excellent tragedy in the PT, a really strong story that is actually improved by knowing the ending - knowing that Darth Vader is the result. Seeing all of these steps along the way - Anakin's callous abduction, Qui-Gonn's dismissal of his mother, Obi-Wan's hubris at teaching him despite barely being out of Padawan himself, Yoda and Windu and the rest of the council's entire lack of curiousity towards the Sith for, like, ten fucking years, their clinging to having no emotional connection and no attachments and no oversight, and Palpatine's ability to manipulate all of it so that even when things don't go quite according to plan it all works out for him anyway. Then Anakin goes to the dark side not because he is evil and not just because he's twisted and manipulated into it. He isn't just some patsy and some victim - no, he's seen first hand what kind of people Jedi are, how they're responsible for literally every bad thing that's ever happened to him and all he was was a tool to them and nothing else, and Palpatine is there as his friend and has been that way this entire time.

Palpatine is Sith, and wants power, but he wants more than anything for Anakin to fulfill his destiny. He genuinely cares about him, more than anyone else in the galaxy, and wants him to triumph and claim his power. And Anakin is at the end given a choice - betray his love, betray his friend, all so he can execute someone in an entirely unlawful act for a group of people who have constantly given him every reason to reject them - or don't, and become the thing they hate. 

And in the end, despite ending the Jedi order and being able to get the power he wants, he is unable to save his love, he ends up losing to his master and supposed friend, and loses everything. 

And at each step you think as you read this 'this isn't so bad'. Until it is. And knowing where he ends, you see all the steps it took, all the little pebbles building to that finale, and in a master's hands it would be a great tale rivaling the Red Wedding in execution and scope. It is literally GRRM's favorite story system - the human heart at war with itself. 

 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Part of me belives that the original twist was going to be the Baby is really bad...then the internet meme machine got a hold of it and now they're boxed in and can't make it be evil...of course, now they need to find a reason why Baby Yoda isn't around to help Leia and her Resistance (still can't understand why a legitimate government needs a resistance force against an insurgency, but JJ being a shitty storyteller overall is a differnt thread and discussion...)

I suspect, in the end, Mando and Baby Yoda will have to jet off to the unknown regions to look for Asoka and Sabine while they look for Ezra...

Disney is not going to make a super cute thing evil, that was never remotely the plan, and if it ever was thought about that person was fired and then shot by Disney's security department. 

[Darth Richard II]

There are a LOT of Jedi and force users that should be around in ep 7 that are not. They’re going to have to address that eventually, though I’m sure it will be in a book.

[Darth Richard II]

ep 9 spoilers 

Spoiler

Ugh that’s what pisses me off about the Jedi voices bullshit in TROS, QuiGon and Mace were fucking dicks.

 

[Darth Richard II]

Padmes full name is Padmé Amidala Naberrie. Amidala being some sort of name she took when she was queen, also cannot turn of bold fir some reason.

[RumHam]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

There are a LOT of Jedi and force users that should be around in ep 7 that are not. They’re going to have to address that eventually, though I’m sure it will be in a book.

?

 

There's Ezra and Ahsoka (who may still be off in uncharted territory. )

There's Cal Kestis from Fallen Order, who I assume is basically for Fallen Order II and maybe III. I love video games, but I still suspect this kinda thing is only canon till it gets in the way. 

who else? People from the comics?