Isis Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I wonder why N K Jemisin seems to keep finding herself in online spats and having to extricate herself and apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Isis said: I wonder why N K Jemisin seems to keep finding herself in online spats and having to extricate herself and apologise. Has this happened before? Usually she finds herself the TARGET of these kinds of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 As with the RWA blow-up, I'm finding this new one hard to understand. Probably it's just me, that who did what to whom and why -- and even what it is about, and is there a right and wrong side -- impossible to parse. As far as I've been able to comprehend, the RWA fight began with an accusation of racism by somebody against somebody, and the Clarkes World fight began with a story that has a trans narrator - protagonist, but who is feeling dissed by this story, and why they are furious, I cannot for the life of me figure out. Plus, you know, is it all trolls anyway? https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/17/sci-fi-magazine-pulls-story-by-trans-writer-after-barrage-of-attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 @Zorral It's pretty clear that either trolls or people who live to be offended had no really good arguments for why the story was offensive, but made a stink that it was. Clarke's framing it as an issue that was "missed" and could have been "fixed" is weak, because it's accepting that any mob who rises up to complain has to be taken into account and catered to. I'm sorry Fall felt the way she did, in withdrawing her story. This is definitely a situation where surrendering to the mob just gives them power over her. ETA: Digging further, basically most of the people who were upset and complained simply speculated that it was a Puppy-style troll, and thus it was a hoax or otherwise aimed to hurt them, and they reacted in knee-jerk fashion. An example of eating your own, ultimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Oh jeez, more drama? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Oh jeez, more drama? The age of social media moves at the speed of drama and hot takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Jesus, just....humanity. I dunno anymore. aside, I don’t see what’s puzzling about the RWA mess. Popular author points out racism, guy high up accused of racism fires her and tries to cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Ran said: ETA: Digging further, basically most of the people who were upset and complained simply speculated that it was a Puppy-style troll, and thus it was a hoax or otherwise aimed to hurt them, and they reacted in knee-jerk fashion. An example of eating your own, ultimately. As I understand it, the story is named after an alt-right meme, was actively promoted by Puppy types, and the only information given about the author was that they were born in '88. I haven't read the story itself and wouldn't be qualified to judge it anyway, but it's obviously dealing with sensitive issues, and I don't doubt that some people found the content genuinely upsetting. So, it appears to be a combination of an author attempting to write something ambitious that was beyond their ability to pull off adequately, alt-right assholes jumping to endorse it as supporting a message the author intended to criticise, and a horrible numerological coincidence exacerbated by the author's choice to include that number but nothing else in their bio. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that members of a minority which gets attacked a great deal would take it badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Ok someone explain the 88 thing to me, I don’t get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Just now, Darth Richard II said: Ok someone explain the 88 thing to me, I don’t get it In white nationalist circles, 88 is sometimes used as code for "Heil Hitler" (H being the 8th letter in the English alphabet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Ah ok that’s, uh, that’s wow ok. i need caffeine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, felice said: So, it appears to be a combination of an author attempting to write something ambitious that was beyond their ability to pull off adequately The bolded is an eye-of-the-beholder matter. It passed editorial and first readers, and some of the responses and reviews (from trans readers and otherwise) were positive, others negative. Many of the negative were premised on the idea that it was a troll or an attack on them, with no real evidence beyond speculation (and yes, some critiques just argue the story is flawed as a story and unsuccessful thereby). If the name attached to the story was a known one, the reaction would have been different, IMO, which is why that set of critiques that led to the withdrawal of the story are superficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: Ah ok that’s, uh, that’s wow ok. i need caffeine. This is a good idea. *steps away from keyboard to make coffee* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Ran said: If the name attached to the story was a known one, the reaction would have been different, IMO Well yes, the identity and intention of the author matters. Imagine an alt-history story about apes being trained to work on plantations in the American South, written by Karl Pseudonymous, with a bio consisting only of "Karl is an author from Kansas City, Kansas". Until it comes out that Karl is a black man who really does come from Kansas, it's going to raise alarm bells, and even then it raises questions about the judgement of both Karl and the publisher. The same story openly written by a known black activist obviously isn't going to generate the same amount of fuss, though it's still going to be controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, felice said: Well yes, the identity and intention of the author matters. I DID initially wonder if someone let Piers Morgan write spec-fic, as it sounded like the kind of title he'd use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 There’s a lot to be said about death of the author and such but I’m too tired and this is probably the wrong thread. also the fact that they still publish RoH probably set off some alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I think this thread sums up pretty much what went down with the Isabel Fall thing. Feels like a No Assholes Here type situation to me- the story was written and published with good intentions and Fall was obviously perfectly justified in not wanting to be out, but some things are different from without a community than within, so when you release something like that with a title like that and don't provide any clues that it is from within, you cannot blame some people for not realising and feeling attacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 This whole thing is a clear demonstration how remarkably dumb the social justice driven evaluation of art is. Instead of analyzing the text itself, it's all about the identity of the author. Really disappointing to see Neil Clarke apologizing to these zealots, he did nothing wrong. The answer is not more sensitivity readers crap, it's ignoring the Twitter offendatrons, it's impossible to please them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 7 hours ago, David Selig said: This whole thing is a clear demonstration how remarkably dumb the social justice driven evaluation of art is. Instead of analyzing the text itself, it's all about the identity of the author. I can't help but wonder if other Soviet ex-pats and historians notice certain historic parallels/similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 I’m not sure this really belongs in this thread, unless some authors bitched to ClarkWorld and I missed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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