Valyrian military

[Aldarion]

What do we know about the military of Old Valyria? I had found it said that Valyrian dragon-based dominance had retarded military development of Essos, which is why we get militaries that are technologically and tactically still in Antiquity, but what about Valyrian Freehold itself?

[Big P]

That is a very good question.  The Valyrians had dragons as their air force but you cannot control the people with that alone.  They had to have had crack ground troops to enforce their will on the territories.  They were basically colonialists.  They had to have good ground troops in order to keep everything under control. 

They were not the only ones with formidable ground forces.  Ghis and its sister slaver cities also had formidable legions.  It took a few major wars before the Valyrians, their dragons, and their military could defeat the people of Ghis.  The three Targaryens of the conquest did not have to work so hard despite having only three dragons and less skill to defeat the armies of Westeros.  That should be a clue to us of the strength of the legions of Ghis.   Daenerys Targaryen's Unsullied troops are surely a powerful force because they are patterned after the legions of old.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know anything about the Valyrian military, but it is clear they had such a military, considering they won a lot of wars, including the five Ghiscari Wars.

It is also not the case, in my opinion, that the Essosi didn't develop in the military department. They would have been more advanced in Valyrian times, but the powerful Free Cities do have both a developed army and navy despite the fact that they also use free companies.

There is also no indication that either the Dothraki and the Sarnori had not military development.

And the Rhoynar are explicitly said to have been much more advanced that the Dornishmen they helped to conquer.

[Narsil4]

I suspect the Dothraki are refugees of the Doom.  
Perhaps originally, a majority of them being Valyrian Cavalry, that were able to escape on horseback. 

With their myths, it also seems like one could swap horses for dragons, without issue. 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

An interesting question, and one I hope we get more information about in the future. Like others have said, their main strength was likely the dragon lords above providing them a powerful air force. As for the ground, maybe they had slave soldiers comprise a standing ground army, and they were supported by the dragon riders in the air? Or maybe Valyrians  who were not of the dragon riding families comprised the standing army, supported by slaves? Not much information about it to be honest. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

18 hours ago, Aldarion said:

What do we know about the military of Old Valyria? I had found it said that Valyrian dragon-based dominance had retarded military development of Essos, which is why we get militaries that are technologically and tactically still in Antiquity, but what about Valyrian Freehold itself?

The military science of the past was more advanced.  The Freehold took military to a level beyond what is known today.  Valyrian steel weapons are superior to the folded iron used today.  But there has been some developments.  There have been progress since the destruction of Valyria among some peoples.  Certainly not in terms of infantry but in other areas of military disciplines.  The Dothraki are perhaps the best ever cavalry.  Braavos has developed its powerful navy.  The absence of dragons allowed the navy to become a more useful war platform because there were no more flying dragons to burn the wooden ships.  The Andal knights have improved their weapons over the bronze of the First Men and that happened even before the destruction of the Freehold. 

[Aldarion]

20 hours ago, Big P said:

That is a very good question.  The Valyrians had dragons as their air force but you cannot control the people with that alone.  They had to have had crack ground troops to enforce their will on the territories.  They were basically colonialists.  They had to have good ground troops in order to keep everything under control. 

They were not the only ones with formidable ground forces.  Ghis and its sister slaver cities also had formidable legions.  It took a few major wars before the Valyrians, their dragons, and their military could defeat the people of Ghis.  The three Targaryens of the conquest did not have to work so hard despite having only three dragons and less skill to defeat the armies of Westeros.  That should be a clue to us of the strength of the legions of Ghis.   Daenerys Targaryen's Unsullied troops are surely a powerful force because they are patterned after the legions of old.

...which would then mean that either Old Ghis had uncountable number of soldiers they could just throw en masse into meatgrinder, Westeros is militarily incompetent despite having what looks like extremely powerful late-Medieval / early-Renaissance combined arms army, or Unsullied are not anywhere close to legions of Old Ghis in terms of military organization and capability despite being patterned on them (to me, Unsullied read like a Greek phalanx).

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The military science of the past was more advanced.  The Freehold took military to a level beyond what is known today.  Valyrian steel weapons are superior to the folded iron used today.  But there has been some developments.  There have been progress since the destruction of Valyria among some peoples.  Certainly not in terms of infantry but in other areas of military disciplines.  The Dothraki are perhaps the best ever cavalry.  Braavos has developed its powerful navy.  The absence of dragons allowed the navy to become a more useful war platform because there were no more flying dragons to burn the wooden ships.  The Andal knights have improved their weapons over the bronze of the First Men and that happened even before the destruction of the Freehold. 

Problem is, from what I have seen of Essos so far, Golden Company is the only proper combined-arms outfit on the whole continent - and it is a Westerosi formation. Essos? You have Unsullied - a phalanx; legions of New Ghis - a phalanx; and a bunch of whateverisms which range from 5 000 to 500 B.C. in terms of military development, but more importantly, seem to be specialized in one way of fighting only. Nothing that should be, realistically, a threat to a proper Westerosi military - or at least any Westerosi military that is not Reach, seeing how Reach appears to be patterned after too-f***ing-retarded-to-live Medieval France in terms of military (longbowmen behind barricades? Cavalry charge! Janissaries behind wagons and heavy chains? Cavalry charge! Cthulhu backed by Ancalagon the Black? Cavalry charge!).

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know anything about the Valyrian military, but it is clear they had such a military, considering they won a lot of wars, including the five Ghiscari Wars.

It is also not the case, in my opinion, that the Essosi didn't develop in the military department. They would have been more advanced in Valyrian times, but the powerful Free Cities do have both a developed army and navy despite the fact that they also use free companies.

There is also no indication that either the Dothraki and the Sarnori had not military development.

And the Rhoynar are explicitly said to have been much more advanced that the Dornishmen they helped to conquer.

That, then, would mean that Essos militarily regressed after the Doom of Valyria, despite the fact that lack of dragons should have incentivized military progress.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

...which would then mean that either Old Ghis had uncountable number of soldiers they could just throw en masse into meatgrinder, Westeros is militarily incompetent despite having what looks like extremely powerful late-Medieval / early-Renaissance combined arms army, or Unsullied are not anywhere close to legions of Old Ghis in terms of military organization and capability despite being patterned on them (to me, Unsullied read like a Greek phalanx).

The Ghiscari essentially had a Roman legions like military. They were not using slave soldiers but the citizens of Ghis and Ghiscar served in the army. One assumes the Valyrians mimicked that kind of thing, but we don't know.

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Problem is, from what I have seen of Essos so far, Golden Company is the only proper combined-arms outfit on the whole continent - and it is a Westerosi formation. Essos? You have Unsullied - a phalanx; legions of New Ghis - a phalanx; and a bunch of whateverisms which range from 5 000 to 500 B.C. in terms of military development, but more importantly, seem to be specialized in one way of fighting only. Nothing that should be, realistically, a threat to a proper Westerosi military - or at least any Westerosi military that is not Reach, seeing how Reach appears to be patterned after too-f***ing-retarded-to-live Medieval France in terms of military (longbowmen behind barricades? Cavalry charge! Janissaries behind wagons and heavy chains? Cavalry charge! Cthulhu backed by Ancalagon the Black? Cavalry charge!).

Nah, all the Free Cities but Pentos do have proper armies. The Volantenes have a vast army and navy that do not only keep the Dothraki at bay but also are strong enough to conquer other Free Cities. They are made up of slaves, of course, but they are still very professional soldiers.

In fact, if you recall the Volantenes are not overly concerned when the Golden Company show up in their lands. They ask for their intentions, of course, but they do not exactly tremble at the sight of 10,000 very professional sellswords. And they can arrange passage for them to Westeros without actually involving their own war fleet (which is preparing to go to Slaver's Bay) - they can do that via the merchants that use their harbor.

And we also know from FaB that Lys - and presumably the other Two Daughters as well - do all have their own military establishment in addition to the sellswords they also imply. They are not even remotely in the same camp as the cities in Slaver's Bay.

And neither is Braavos which is described as the greatest naval power in the Free Cities.

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

That, then, would mean that Essos militarily regressed after the Doom of Valyria, despite the fact that lack of dragons should have incentivized military progress.

One assumes the Dothraki made a lot of progress in that department. The Free Cities seem to have made progressed in another matter, sort of finding a modus operandi of co-existence by avoiding all-out military conflicts of the type they fought during the Century of Blood (at least outside the Disputed Lands).

The idea that the Valyrian dragons came into play in every minor skirmish half a world away from Valyria is not very likely. Their many colony worlds and outposts founded by Valyrian adventures and merchants, etc. would have to be able to defend themselves and conquer territories on their own - especially if they were those free colonies who were not/no longer ruled by the Freehold itself.

[Big P]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

...which would then mean that either Old Ghis had uncountable number of soldiers they could just throw en masse into meatgrinder, Westeros is militarily incompetent despite having what looks like extremely powerful late-Medieval / early-Renaissance combined arms army, or Unsullied are not anywhere close to legions of Old Ghis in terms of military organization and capability despite being patterned on them (to me, Unsullied read like a Greek phalanx).

Old Ghis had its formidable legions that would make mince meat out of any armies that the lords of Westeros can put together.  The evidence is right there.  Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys had a rather easy time beating up on the lords of Westeros.  That was only three dragons and the skills of the siblings are in question because they do not have extensive experience in battle.  The most experienced member of the Targaryen forces of that time was Balerion.  Only he had experience from the days of skilled air men and women.  The old Freehold and its multiple times the number of dragons and more experienced riders took a long time to put down Old Ghis.  That is proof of how effective those legions were.  Westeros and its knights do not stand a chance against those legions.  

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Problem is, from what I have seen of Essos so far, Golden Company is the only proper combined-arms outfit on the whole continent - and it is a Westerosi formation. Essos? You have Unsullied - a phalanx; legions of New Ghis - a phalanx; and a bunch of whateverisms which range from 5 000 to 500 B.C. in terms of military development, but more importantly, seem to be specialized in one way of fighting only. Nothing that should be, realistically, a threat to a proper Westerosi military - or at least any Westerosi military that is not Reach, seeing how Reach appears to be patterned after too-f***ing-retarded-to-live Medieval France in terms of military (longbowmen behind barricades? Cavalry charge! Janissaries behind wagons and heavy chains? Cavalry charge! Cthulhu backed by Ancalagon the Black? Cavalry charge!).

That, then, would mean that Essos militarily regressed after the Doom of Valyria, despite the fact that lack of dragons should have incentivized military progress.

 

You are showing your prejudice.  Just because the story began in Westeros does not mean they have the most advanced military.  Robert himself was afraid of a Dothraki invasion.  I would say the legions of Old Ghis and the Unsullied of the current time period are even better than the Dothraki. 

[Aldarion]

23 minutes ago, Big P said:

Old Ghis had its formidable legions that would make mince meat out of any armies that the lords of Westeros can put together.  The evidence is right there.  Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys had a rather easy time beating up on the lords of Westeros.  That was only three dragons and the skills of the siblings are in question because they do not have extensive experience in battle.  The most experienced member of the Targaryen forces of that time was Balerion.  Only he had experience from the days of skilled air men and women.  The old Freehold and its multiple times the number of dragons and more experienced riders took a long time to put down Old Ghis.  That is proof of how effective those legions were.  Westeros and its knights do not stand a chance against those legions.  

Any actual proof of that? I can write pikemen defeating main battle tanks with no sweat, that doesn't mean it will make sense. And as far as I am aware, we do not know how Ghis managed to hold out against Valyria. Maybe they were a threat, or maybe Valyrians simply weren't able to logistically support dragons and armies needed to quickly conquer Ghiscari.

23 minutes ago, Big P said:

You are showing your prejudice.  Just because the story began in Westeros does not mean they have the most advanced military.  Robert himself was afraid of a Dothraki invasion.  I would say the legions of Old Ghis and the Unsullied of the current time period are even better than the Dothraki. 

If what you are saying is correct, why is that never shown? Told, yes, but not shown. From what is shown in the text, Westeros does have the most advanced military.

And LOL at understanding historical military evolution being prejudice.

[Big P]

Just now, Aldarion said:

Any actual proof of that? I can write pikemen defeating main battle tanks with no sweat, that doesn't mean it will make sense. And as far as I am aware, we do not know how Ghis managed to hold out against Valyria. Maybe they were a threat, or maybe Valyrians simply weren't able to logistically support dragons and armies needed to quickly conquer Ghiscari.

You've been given the proof.  Three dragons made short work of the Westerosi forces.  Hundreds of dragons with battle experience plus skilled riders took longer to put down Old Ghis.  You don't need rocket science to understand which army is better between Old Ghis and the Westerosi. 

[Aldarion]

4 minutes ago, Big P said:

 You've been given the proof.  Three dragons made short work of the Westerosi forces.  Hundreds of dragons with battle experience plus skilled riders took longer to put down Old Ghis.  You don't need rocket science to understand which army is better between Old Ghis and the Westerosi. 

Again, that is the proof of George Martin needing Ghis to be a threat. Not the proof of the way it was being portrayed making sense.

And for all we know, Old Ghis only lasted for as long as it did because it was too large and organized to be swallowed up easily while Westeros folded as soon as their leaders were dead or knelt.

[Aldarion]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Ghiscari essentially had a Roman legions like military. They were not using slave soldiers but the citizens of Ghis and Ghiscar served in the army. One assumes the Valyrians mimicked that kind of thing, but we don't know.

How come Unsullied are so different? Or is my impression of them as hoplites wrong? Because Roman legions were a combined-arms outfit, even in the Principate which is basically the low point of legion's flexibility. Late Roman army fielded legions which combined light infantry, heavy infantry, light cavalry and heavy cavalry (cataphractii) in a single formation, which was continued later in the Byzantine era. Unsullied however are heavy infantry - solely heavy infantry, and they seem to fight in a shield wall. They are explicitly modelled on lockstep legions of Old Ghis, which - between the name and how they are described - sound like hoplites to me.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, all the Free Cities but Pentos do have proper armies. The Volantenes have a vast army and navy that do not only keep the Dothraki at bay but also are strong enough to conquer other Free Cities. They are made up of slaves, of course, but they are still very professional soldiers.

 In fact, if you recall the Volantenes are not overly concerned when the Golden Company show up in their lands. They ask for their intentions, of course, but they do not exactly tremble at the sight of 10,000 very professional sellswords. And they can arrange passage for them to Westeros without actually involving their own war fleet (which is preparing to go to Slaver's Bay) - they can do that via the merchants that use their harbor.

 And we also know from FaB that Lys - and presumably the other Two Daughters as well - do all have their own military establishment in addition to the sellswords they also imply. They are not even remotely in the same camp as the cities in Slaver's Bay.

And neither is Braavos which is described as the greatest naval power in the Free Cities.

Yeah, I guess that Slaver's Bay coloured my perceptions since they are what we see in siege of Mereen. But fact that Volantis is portrayed as powerful does not mean there is logical basis for this conclusion, which is what I am interested in.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

How come Unsullied are so different? Or is my impression of them as hoplites wrong? Because Roman legions were a combined-arms outfit, even in the Principate which is basically the low point of legion's flexibility. Late Roman army fielded legions which combined light infantry, heavy infantry, light cavalry and heavy cavalry (cataphractii) in a single formation, which was continued later in the Byzantine era. Unsullied however are heavy infantry - solely heavy infantry, and they seem to fight in a shield wall. They are explicitly modelled on lockstep legions of Old Ghis, which - between the name and how they are described - sound like hoplites to me.

Oh, we don't know whether the lockstep legions were better than the Unsullied, but I doubt that the legions were the only soldiers the Ghiscari ever had. Like the Romans they would have had some sort of cavalry.

But the impression we have is that the Unsullied - while pretty efficient - are a degraded version of the Ghiscari legions. But we are told that the legions of New Ghis are apparently pretty efficient at what they are doing, the most dangerous soldiers in the armies of the Yunkish allies. So we have to wait and see how they do in the coming battles (not that they are likely to win with two sellswords companies defecting to the enemy and they all being caught essentially between Selmy's people and the Ironborn.

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Yeah, I guess that Slaver's Bay coloured my perceptions since they are what we see in siege of Mereen. But fact that Volantis is portrayed as powerful does not mean there is logical basis for this conclusion, which is what I am interested in.

Well, for that you would have to wait and see when we actually get them portrayed.

FaB essentially made it very clear that the Free Cities essentially are dialed-up versions of the Italian Renaissance city states. Pentos is a very special case and clearly not even remotely representative of the others - and even Pentos controls a huge chunk of land in Essos. If you want to imagine their military capabilities you have to go with what they could do - and figure in the size of a state like Volantis which controls several cities larger than KL and Oldtown.