On Janos Slynt

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure what you’re saying here, my impression is you’re comparing oranges to spaceships?

I mean that Mance didn't care about the rules and wanted special treatment when he wanted to keep that cloak. After all, every man at the Watch may long for this kind of special treatment got from his wildling lady there. Or may want to keep tokens which allow him to imagine a different, freer life.

I've no issue with Dareon or Pyp or Grenn want to be free again - they joined the Watch under duress. But Mance joined it willingly, like Jon did, so he doesn't get a pass from me.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Do I? I find that unlikely b/c I don’t really think anyone is “special”. But go ahead, enlighten me.

We all read a lot of diatribes how the Watch in and of itself is a problem since Jon failed to keep his vows.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s not pulling reasons out of their arses. Any order/institution/whatever that is completely rigid is doomed to fail, and that is a fact. So, we can either be flexible, or accept failure, doom, and destruction. And that applies for Westeros and the real world.

That is no fact. Whatever rigidity there is in the Watch is there to allow it to properly function. People have to abandon and forget all previous loyalties for the order to work in this shitty feudal setting where people constantly war with each other over trivial issues.

Flexibility would have been the death of the NW a fortnight after its founding.

The vows of the NW would also be the way to go if humanity had to establish some sort of space monks to establish 'a wall' in the asteroid belt to protect Earth against some evil undead space aliens from Jupiter. You do have to get people to the point where they consider their new job a higher calling/purpose, something that transcends normal human life and which they will still follow even if back home everything goes to hell for trivial reasons.

Nobody in the books actually contemplates changing the NW or their vows. That never comes up. Jon merely includes people he has to include because he doesn't want them to become wights. That's not a change to the way the NW as such is set up.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Does the Watch even get any volunteers at this point? What’s the ratio between volunteers and convicts sent there to avoid execution/maiming? A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and the Watch has way too many very weak links to function as it’s supposed to function. 

We don't know, but there are volunteers. Benjen volunteered, Jon volunteered, we can assume Mormont volunteered, Mallister seems to have volunteered, even Sam sort of volunteered, Aemon volunteered, Satin seems to have volunteered, etc.

The amount of scum in the NW also didn't do much to affect its effectiveness. The mutiny at Craster's Keep goes back, at least in part, to Chett's plans, but it is something that could also have happened with better men in the Watch, considering the losses they suffered and the situation they were in - and considering what kind of scum Craster was.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? No idea what you mean. Please, do elaborate. 

There not much to elaborate here. Mance Rayder declared war on the NW and the Seven Kingdoms and did everything in his power to destroy the NW and thus leave the Wall unprotected once the Others finally made their move. Instead of trying to inform his former brothers about the danger they were all in (which he had known about for years) he did his best to destroy them all.

Mance's attack also left most of the gates at CB destroyed. They have not been repared/restored as far as we know. Had they been destroyed completely the Others and wights could have just walked through like the wildlings wanted to do, too.

6 minutes ago, redriver said:

The greatest threat to mankind in the entire series.

Hyperbole?Just a bit maybe?

If you assume the Others are the greatest danger to mankind than Mance comes immediately after them since he was their greatest ally. Inadvertently, yes, but the fact that he knew about the true enemy for a considerable time and told no one in the Watch or in the Seven Kingdoms he definitely qualifies as the greatest enemy of mankind after the Others.

If Mance's plans had succeeded, if Stannis had not come to defeat them, mankind would likely be finished. The Wall would be undefended and the Others would just walk down south with nobody even knowing they would come. The North would be ravaged by Mance's wildlings on their way down south, completely crippling their ability to even try to resist the Others when they come.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

even Sam sort of volunteered

Lol no he didn't. If criminals are said to have joined the watch under duress & thus not volunteered how in the world did Sam even kind of volunteer? 

 

& Didn't Satin get picked up with some other recruits that were locked up somewhere? That doesn't seem to imply he volunteered either. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Lol no he didn't. If criminals are said to have joined the watch under duress & thus not volunteered how in the world did Sam even kind of volunteer? 

His father dumped him at the Wall, but he only said the words there. He could have gone and tried to make a life of his own elsewhere after his training as a recruit was over.

He would have had trouble returning to Horn Hill, of course, but he could have gone some place else.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He could have gone and tried to make a life of his own elsewhere after his training as a recruit was over

Randyll Tarly wanted Sam to renounce the family name, so as to not stand in the way of Dickon being the heir, that’s why he told him, “the Wall or a nasty accident”. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

His father dumped him at the Wall, but he only said the words there. He could have gone and tried to make a life of his own elsewhere after his training as a recruit was over.

He would have had trouble returning to Horn Hill, of course, but he could have gone some place else.

I don't think Satin volunteered either. I don't recall being told Mallister or Mormont volunteered - although that might be the case. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

His father dumped him at the Wall, but he only said the words there. He could have gone and tried to make a life of his own elsewhere after his training as a recruit was over.

Really? Sam? Sam who was scared of his shadow going off to make a life of himself somewhere else after his training was over? Sam was taken out of training after Jon went to speak with Maester Aemon because he was hopeless with a sword. He was hopeless at Horn Hill, he was hopeless at the Wall. 

The NW is a choice between life and death for most of the men who are at the Wall. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Randyll Tarly wanted Sam to renounce the family name, so as to not stand in the way of Dickon being the heir, that’s why he told him, “the Wall or a nasty accident”. 

I know what Randyll did - my point is that Sam had a choice after he was at the Wall. Like Jon. He also publicly declared he wanted to take the black but could only not leave the Wall after he said his vows after the end of his training.

In that sense Ned and Sam are different from criminals who are given the choice 'Wall or whatever punishment they would suffer if they didn't go to the Wall'.

For those their decision to take the black to get out of regular punishment is seen as a commitment to definitely take the black - which is why Grand Maester Orwyle is considered an oathbreaker and turncloak after he runs away and doesn't take his ship to the Wall. Whereas Jon Snow would not be seen as an oathbreaker and turncloak if he had left the Wall before making his vows.

It is clear Sam can't go back to Horn Hill, but his dear dad doesn't have the power to make Sam a criminal who has to take the black to avoid being punished or executed. And thus Sam did have a choice. In fact, he very much wants to take the black after he has found friends and goes even so far to say his words in front of the weirwoods.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Satin volunteered either. I don't recall being told Mallister or Mormont volunteered - although that might be the case.

That's why I said I added qualifiers there. Satin was a male whore. My impression is that taking the black seemed more promising to him than continue his present career. There is no indication he was in the Hightower dungeons for some offence and decided to take the black because of that after he was offered the choice. He could have been, but there is no indication.

Mormont seems to have been an old guy who thought he could do some good at the Wall in his last years, and Mallister is such an honorable fellow that I don't think for a moment he ever committed an offense that compelled him to take the black.

And there is, of course, also Waymar Royce - who I forgot. Other volunteers likely include Qhorin Halfhand, Squire Dalbridge (who once was the squire of King Jaehaerys II), and Bowen Marsh.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Really? Sam? Sam who was scared of his shadow going off to make a life of himself somewhere else after his training was over? Sam was taken out of training after Jon went to speak with Maester Aemon because he was hopeless with a sword. He was hopeless at Horn Hill, he was hopeless at the Wall. 

The NW is a choice between life and death for most of the men who are at the Wall. 

Sam would have had great difficulty making a life of his own elsewhere, of course, but that wasn't the question. The question was whether he truly had no other choice but to stay at the Wall. And the answer to that question is no - just as Jon could still leave until he had said the words.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sam sort of volunteered

You kind of forgot what "volunteer"means.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's why I said I added qualifiers there. Satin was a male whore. My impression is that taking the black seemed more promising to him than continue his present career. There is no indication he was in the Hightower dungeons for some offence and decided to take the black because of that after he was offered the choice. He could have been, but there is no indication

Why else would he be in the dungeons other than for some offense? 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mormont seems to have been an old guy who thought he could do some good at the Wall in his last years, and Mallister is such an honorable fellow that I don't think for a moment he ever committed an offense that compelled him to take the black

Yeah they may have volunteered. They probably did, but that was a long time ago & KBF was asking if anyone volunteers anymore. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And there is, of course, also Waymar Royce - who I forgot. Other volunteers likely include Qhorin Halfhand, Squire Dalbridge (who once was the squire of King Jaehaerys II), and Bowen Marsh

Waymar was fairly new I think so he would count but the others would have volunteered long ago. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sam would have had great difficulty making a life of his own elsewhere, of course, but that wasn't the question. The question was whether he truly had no other choice but to stay at the Wall. And the answer to that question is no - just as Jon could still leave until he had said the words

But it isn't just as Jon. Jon volunteered willingly. 

If Sam made a life for himself other than at the wall & his father caught him he would be facing death. His father gave him 2 choices - death or the wall. The same choices criminals are given. So if Grenn, Dareon, etc are not volunteers because they were only given the choice of death or the wall then neither is Sam. If Sam is a volunteer because he was offered another choice (even though that choice was death) then so are the criminals because, after all, they had another choice as well. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why else would he be in the dungeons other than for some offense?

If Conwy also took him from the Gulltown dungeon he may have stood accused of something. If he picked him up in Oldtown (where I assumed he decided to take the black) he may have thought that would be a better life than whoring.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah they may have volunteered. They probably did, but that was a long time ago & KBF was asking if anyone volunteers anymore. 

And the answer is that some people still do. It is not that many criminals take the black, either. Very few lords allow such people to take the black, anyway, or else there would be more criminals up there.

One also has to keep in mind that among the commoners there might be more volunteers than one assumes, if we talk about the rabble of the streets and the like who might actually considering taking the black as bettering their lives - and among certain members of the nobility the black is still something they view as honorable. Especially in the North - but not only there.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But it isn't just as Jon. Jon volunteered willingly. 

Jon drunkenly said he wanted to join - and then Ned made that a fact after his talk with Cat and Luwin. He didn't threaten his life or anything, but Jon was no longer welcome at Winterfell after Ned left for court. Cat made sure of that - and Ned, for some reason, also preferred to dump his bastard at the Wall rather than take him with him down to KL.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If Sam made a life for himself other than at the wall & his father caught him he would be facing death. His father gave him 2 choices - death or the wall. The same choices criminals are given. So if Grenn, Dareon, etc are not volunteers because they were only given the choice of death or the wall then neither is Sam. If Sam is a volunteer because he was offered another choice (even though that choice was death) then so are the criminals because, after all, they had another choice as well. 

That is not true. Randyll threatened to murder Samwell if he didn't declare he wanted to take the black. That is actually a crime. Randyll has no right to kill his son if he didn't swear the vows up at the Wall - if he did he were a bloody murderer and kinslayer.

Again, if Sam were already effectively a man of the Watch when he declared to take the black with his father's dagger at his throat then Jon would also have been a man of the Watch before he said the words - which simply wasn't the case.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

If Conwy also took him from the Gulltown dungeon he may have stood accused of something. If he picked him up in Oldtown (where I assumed he decided to take the black) he may have thought that would be a better life than whoring.

Sure, I think it's stated in the books that Satin was picked up from the dungeons but I might be remembering wrong. 

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

And the answer is that some people still do.

For sure, some people still do. It doesn't seem to be many though. Recently we only know of Jon & Waymar. I was just pointing out that Aemon, Mormont, Mallister, Qhorin etc don't count for this question because they would have volunteered long before now & KBF was inquiring as to whether anyone still volunteers. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not that many criminals take the black, either. Very few lords allow such people to take the black, anyway, or else there would be more criminals up there.

I think there are quite a few criminals there. The watch as a whole has shrunk but the majority of new recruits are definitely criminals. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One also has to keep in mind that among the commoners there might be more volunteers than one assumes, if we talk about the rabble of the streets and the like who might actually considering taking the black as bettering their lives - and among certain members of the nobility the black is still something they view as honorable. Especially in the North - but not only there

Idk, I don't recall hearing the North thinks the black is particularly honorable & while there may be more volunteers than what we assume because we don't know how every person ended up at the wall, nor do we know every persons name but the text says things to contradict that. Like that the watch is full of rapers, murderers, & thieves. Like we see dungeons being emptied & criminals being given the option to take the black rather than die for their crimes. 

Who in nobility thinks the black is honorable? I'm sure there are those but I don't recall anyone saying much about it tbh. I would assume Ned thinks it's honorable & may even say so. Possibly some of the Mormont's but who else? 

It's completely possible I've missed all this but I cannot recall one, single, time anyone in the North, outside of Ned or Benjen, or anyone in nobility have stated taking the black is honorable. 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon drunkenly said he wanted to join - and then Ned made that a fact after his talk with Cat and Luwin. He didn't threaten his life or anything, but Jon was no longer welcome at Winterfell after Ned left for court. Cat made sure of that - and Ned, for some reason, also preferred to dump his bastard at the Wall rather than take him with him down to KL

I don't think Jon knew he was any more or less unwelcome than he was prior to Ned deciding to go to KL. Jon could have told him he changed his mind, could have decided at any point while on the way to the wall that he wanted to take another path, could have chosen not to take the vows. He most certainly joined willingly & had a choice. Jon may have said it after he was drunk but he carried through with it completely sober & we have no indication he changed his mind. 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not true. Randyll threatened to murder Samwell if he didn't declare he wanted to take the black. That is actually a crime. Randyll has no right to kill his son if he didn't swear the vows up at the Wall - if he did he were a bloody murderer and kinslayer.

It is true. What Randyll did may have been a crime but he did it none the less & would most certainly have carried through with it. 

Randyll didn't merely want Sam gone from Horn Hill, he wanted him unable, at any point, to take Dickon's inheritance. He was threatened with death or the wall. the same threat a criminal is given. 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, if Sam were already effectively a man of the Watch when he declared to take the black with his father's dagger at his throat then Jon would also have been a man of the Watch before he said the words - which simply wasn't the case.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Sam wasn't effectively a man of the Watch when he declared to take the black anymore than any man is. Criminals get sent to the wall but they aren't men of the watch until they say their vows. 

Do you seriously not see the difference in 

a. a man wanting to join the NW, declaring he wants to join, & then following through with joining, all while not under any duress from any outside force

or 

b. a man being threatened by his father who hates him with death if he doesn't join the NW

 

They are not the same. Not even close. 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure, some people still do. It doesn't seem to be many though. Recently we only know of Jon & Waymar. I was just pointing out that Aemon, Mormont, Mallister, Qhorin etc don't count for this question because they would have volunteered long before now & KBF was inquiring as to whether anyone still volunteers. 

We do have Jon and Waymar for those.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think there are quite a few criminals there. The watch as a whole has shrunk but the majority of new recruits are definitely criminals.

But the criminals aren't the reason the Watch is dying - it is that too few men actually take the black. That's why they are are old and continue to shrink.

And there is also the case that there are alleged criminals among the men of the Watch - like Dareon - as well as actual criminals. And among the latter there are both dangerous scum as well as men who were convicted of crimes like poaching which shouldn't be a crime at all.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk, I don't recall hearing the North thinks the black is particularly honorable & while there may be more volunteers than what we assume because we don't know how every person ended up at the wall, nor do we know every persons name but the text says things to contradict that. Like that the watch is full of rapers, murderers, & thieves. Like we see dungeons being emptied & criminals being given the option to take the black rather than die for their crimes. 

We have Benjen and Jon taking the black. We also have the Northmen being close friends of the Watch. We do have a Royce taking the black of his own free will and his father even accompanying him to the Wall.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Jon knew he was any more or less unwelcome than he was prior to Ned deciding to go to KL. Jon could have told him he changed his mind, could have decided at any point while on the way to the wall that he wanted to take another path, could have chosen not to take the vows. He most certainly joined willingly & had a choice. Jon may have said it after he was drunk but he carried through with it completely sober & we have no indication he changed his mind. 

We know Jon was no longer welcome at Winterfell as per Catelyn. We also know that Ned would talk to Jon about the fact that he, Catelyn, and Luwin had decided his fate. They were not offering Jon to take the black, they decided for him that he would take the black. That is a small but important difference. Nothing in the conversation indicates they would give Jon a choice.

Sure, he could go someplace else on his own, but House Stark had decided he would go to the Wall - sort of like Jaehaerys I decided his son Vaegon would go to the Citadel (or like Daeron II decided Aemon would go to the Citadel).

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is true. What Randyll did may have been a crime but he did it none the less & would most certainly have carried through with it. 

Randyll didn't merely want Sam gone from Horn Hill, he wanted him unable, at any point, to take Dickon's inheritance. He was threatened with death or the wall. the same threat a criminal is given. 

I know what he wanted, but him wanting something doesn't make it so. Randyll threatened Sam into going to the Wall. That's not the same as giving a criminal his choice. There a guy is found guilty, gets his sentence, and then he is given (or not given) the opportunity to take black as means to prevent the sentence from being carried out (or in the case of criminals in dungeons that they get out of there if they wanted to take the black).

This is not the same as Sam's situation. If Sam had left CB before taking his vows the Watch would never inform Horn Hill or anyone that a man of the Watch had deserted. Nobody would view Samwell Tarly as a deserter and hence nobody would have the right to execute him as a deserter.

In fact, Sam could show up at Horn Hill itself, spit into the face of his dying father, and take his rightful place as Lord of Horn Hill (if he had the support and power to oust Dickon).

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you are saying. Sam wasn't effectively a man of the Watch when he declared to take the black anymore than any man is. Criminals get sent to the wall but they aren't men of the watch until they say their vows. 

Do you seriously not see the difference in 

a. a man wanting to join the NW, declaring he wants to join, & then following through with joining, all while not under any duress from any outside force

or 

b. a man being threatened by his father who hates him with death if he doesn't join the NW

 

They are not the same. Not even close. 

They are more or less the same at the Wall, months after Sam has left Horn Hill and is out of the power of his monstrous father. Samwell Tarly is under no duress whatsoever to say the words in the godswood beyond the Wall.

[Frey family reunion]

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, I think it's stated in the books that Satin was picked up from the dungeons but I might be remembering wrong. 

I think it’s heavily implied that Satin was one of the new recruits taken from the dungeon near Gulltown:

Quote

“Outside the armory, Ser Endrew Tarth was working with some raw recruits. They’d come in last night with Conwy, one of the wandering crows who roamed the Seven Kingdoms collecting men for the Wall. This new crop consisted of a greybeard leaning on a staff, two blond boys with the look of brothers, a foppish youth in soiled satin, a raggy man with a clubfoot, and some grinning loon who must have fancied himself a warrior.”

Quote

“They smell of summer,” Jon said as Ser Endrew bullrushed his foe and knocked him sprawling. “Where did Conwy find them?”
“A lord’s dungeon near Gulltown,” the smith replied. “A brigand, a barber, a beggar, two orphans, and a boy whore. With such do we defend the realms of men.”

Quote

Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night’s Watch; the name he’d gotten in the brothel where he’d been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow.

It is interesting that a number of recruits came out of a Lord’s castle near Gulltown, especially one who was raised in a whore house.

When you hear Gulltown and whorehouses who do you think of?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We do have Jon and Waymar for those

Yes I know. 2 recently. So the answer is yes, it appears occasionally some people still volunteer but not many. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the criminals aren't the reason the Watch is dying - it is that too few men actually take the black. That's why they are are old and continue to shrink

I agree. They don't have as many volunteers. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And there is also the case that there are alleged criminals among the men of the Watch - like Dareon - as well as actual criminals. And among the latter there are both dangerous scum as well as men who were convicted of crimes like poaching which shouldn't be a crime at all.

Absolutely. 

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have Benjen and Jon taking the black

Yes but this doesn't mean the North or nobility in general see taking the black as honorable. Benjen took the black a while ago & perhaps the views were different then. 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We also have the Northmen being close friends of the Watch. We do have a Royce taking the black of his own free will and his father even accompanying him to the Wall

Right but how does this mean nobility & the North see it as honorable?

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know Jon was no longer welcome at Winterfell as per Catelyn

We know that but Jon doesn't. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We also know that Ned would talk to Jon about the fact that he, Catelyn, and Luwin had decided his fate.

Except they hadn't decided his fate, Ned listened to the advice of Luwin & Catelyn & made the decision to allow Jon to take the black. Jon asked to do this. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They were not offering Jon to take the black, they decided for him that he would take the black. 

No, they did neither. It wasn't Luwin or Catelyn's decision & even though she expressed her unwillingness to have Jon at WF, Ned is the Lord of the castle & could have told her Jon is staying. 

Ned didn't offer for Jon to take the black or decide for him he was taking the black. Ned allowed him to take the black. 

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a small but important difference. Nothing in the conversation indicates they would give Jon a choice

It was Jon's choice. Jon asked to take the black - there was no reason for Ned to offer him a choice when Jon had already expressed his choice & Ned, after speaking with Luwin & Cat, allowed it. 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, he could go someplace else on his own, but House Stark had decided he would go to the Wall - sort of like Jaehaerys I decided his son Vaegon would go to the Citadel (or like Daeron II decided Aemon would go to the Citadel

Who is House Stark?? The decision is Ned's. Jon made the request, Ned allowed it. Had Jon requested to do something else Ned would have weighed it & either allowed it or not but this certainly wasn't the only choice, it was the only choice Jon asked for. 

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

know what he wanted, but him wanting something doesn't make it so. Randyll threatened Sam into going to the Wall. That's not the same as giving a criminal his choice.

It's not exactly the same but Sam's situation is much more similar to a criminals than Jon's.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There a guy is found guilty, gets his sentence, and then he is given (or not given) the opportunity to take black as means to prevent the sentence from being carried out (or in the case of criminals in dungeons that they get out of there if they wanted to take the black).

The only difference in this & Sam's deal is he wasn't found guilty of anything. Or was only guilty of existing. 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not the same as Sam's situation. If Sam had left CB before taking his vows the Watch would never inform Horn Hill or anyone that a man of the Watch had deserted. Nobody would view Samwell Tarly as a deserter and hence nobody would have the right to execute him as a deserter

No, no one would have called him a deserter or executed him on those grounds but if Randyl got word or seen Sam somewhere Sam would have every reason to be fearful of him. 

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, Sam could show up at Horn Hill itself, spit into the face of his dying father, and take his rightful place as Lord of Horn Hill (if he had the support and power to oust Dickon).

Sure if he could not get caught before his father was dying & not until then. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They are more or less the same at the Wall, months after Sam has left Horn Hill and is out of the power of his monstrous father. Samwell Tarly is under no duress whatsoever to say the words in the godswood beyond the Wall.

They aren't because Jon could have left without having defied anyone's orders & without fear of repercussion. If Sam left he defied his father's orders & would live in fear of repercussions from him. 

[Frey family reunion]

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They are more or less the same at the Wall, months after Sam has left Horn Hill and is out of the power of his monstrous father. Samwell Tarly is under no duress whatsoever to say the words in the godswood beyond the Wall.

I see your point and I agree with it to an extent.  Sam was sent to the Wall through via his father’s death threat but he chose to stay at the Wall when he said his vows. 

But practically, he didn’t have a choice.  Sam had no skills to survive on his own.

The real question is why his father was so dead set against Sam going to the Citadel.  Wouldn’t Sam taking his vows as a Maester pave the way for Dickon’s inheritance of Horn Hill?  I know his father made a big deal about Tarly’s not serving anyone, yet ironically enough Sam’s first duty in the Night’s Watch is serving the Castle’s maester.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but how does this mean nobility & the North see it as honorable?

Some still do. And we simply do not know how many of the men with a family name went to the Wall because they were forced.

I'd also assume Dolorous Edd took the black of his own volition. We don't get the vibe he was forced there for some crime or rebellion.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We know that but Jon doesn't. 

Except they hadn't decided his fate, Ned listened to the advice of Luwin & Catelyn & made the decision to allow Jon to take the black. Jon asked to do this. 

No, they did neither. It wasn't Luwin or Catelyn's decision & even though she expressed her unwillingness to have Jon at WF, Ned is the Lord of the castle & could have told her Jon is staying. 

Ned didn't offer for Jon to take the black or decide for him he was taking the black. Ned allowed him to take the black. 

It was Jon's choice. Jon asked to take the black - there was no reason for Ned to offer him a choice when Jon had already expressed his choice & Ned, after speaking with Luwin & Cat, allowed it. 

Who is House Stark?? The decision is Ned's. Jon made the request, Ned allowed it. Had Jon requested to do something else Ned would have weighed it & either allowed it or not but this certainly wasn't the only choice, it was the only choice Jon asked for. 

It is all pretty clear. The decision that Jon would go to the Wall was not Jon's but made in Catelyn's bedchamber:

Quote

“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …”

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”

Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?”

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.”

“And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …”

“A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed. “Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.”

Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.

Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally, he sighed, and turned back. “Very well,” he said to Maester Luwin. “I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben.”

“When shall we tell Jon?” the maester asked.

“When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.”

Jon expressed a desire to join the NW in a drunken state. They did not agree to have him reconsider this choice after he had sobered up, nor did they give him the opportunity to make an informed decision, telling him with what kind of men he would have to serve at the Wall.

It is also quite clear that Cat would not suffer Jon in Winterfell after she started to rule there in her husband's name, and that Ned actually accepted that.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's not exactly the same but Sam's situation is much more similar to a criminals than Jon's.

The only difference in this & Sam's deal is he wasn't found guilty of anything. Or was only guilty of existing. 

No, no one would have called him a deserter or executed him on those grounds but if Randyl got word or seen Sam somewhere Sam would have every reason to be fearful of him. 

Sure, that goes without saying, but it doesn't mean he would have to fear for his life. Randyll is an ass, but I actually don't think he would have actually murdered Samwell. He said that to intimidate him, but I doubt he would have gone through with it.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure if he could not get caught before his father was dying & not until then. 

They aren't because Jon could have left without having defied anyone's orders & without fear of repercussion. If Sam left he defied his father's orders & would live in fear of repercussions from him. 

Nobody said anything about Sam returning to the Reach. He could have settled in the North, in the Gifts, he could have gone to Essos or Ibben or beyond the Wall. Jon could have written to Robb/Luwin/Bran to ask them to take Sam in as a steward. That would have been a better solution to push Aemon to allow him to take the black before he was ready to do it.

And after Randyll threatened to murder Samwell he was definitely under no obligation to obey any commands this man gave him, father or no.

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But practically, he didn’t have a choice.  Sam had no skills to survive on his own.

See immediately above. Come to think of it, we can assume that Luwin and eventually Cassel would have welcomed a replacement steward for Vayon Poole. Sam could have filled such a position, and qualified personnel was obviously lacking in Winterfell, or else some new steward would have been named, especially after Poole was killed at KL.

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The real question is why his father was so dead set against Sam going to the Citadel.  Wouldn’t Sam taking his vows as a Maester pave the way for Dickon’s inheritance of Horn Hill?  I know his father made a big deal about Tarly’s not serving anyone, yet ironically enough Sam’s first duty in the Night’s Watch is serving the Castle’s maester.

I can only guess. I think a good explanation could be that Lord Randyll did so loath this caricature of a son, this caricature of a Tarly he had there that he could not suffer the idea Samwell continue to live in the Reach somewhere, either as a maester or a septon (and he would receive his training in Oldtown in both cases, most likely).

There was no real reason for Tarly to actually remove somebody as meek and soft as Samwell from the castle to make way for Dickon. If Tarly had favored Dickon his entire life, constantly sidelining and publicly humiliating Samwell, confining him to his chamber, refusing him friends, a marriage, or anything that would allow him to make his very existence known to the world, then Dickon's rise to Horn Hill would have been guaranteed, too.

Thus I'd say Tarly's real reason was to get this creature out of sight for good - and to give him one last chance to find his courage and actually do honor to the warrior's name he bears. Savage Sam Tarly would turn over in his grave if he knew what kind of craven bore his noble name today...

The idea that no Tarly ever served as a maester or septon would be very odd.

But one also has to keep in mind that back when Sam wanted to go to the Citadel Lord Randyll likely still had hopes Sam would one day rule as Lord of Horn Hill. Chances are not that high that (m)any firstborn sons of House Tarly (or any other noble house for that matter) were allowed or encouraged to become maesters or septons or even black brothers or Kingsguard. Such things would usually be for second or third sons, especially in the great houses.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

think it’s heavily implied that Satin was one of the new recruits taken from the dungeon near Gulltown

Absolutely. 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

is interesting that a number of recruits came out of a Lord’s castle near Gulltown, especially one who was raised in a whore house.

When you hear Gulltown and whorehouses who do you think of

The first thing I think of is Brienne not being able to catch a ship because they think she is a whore. But gulltown & whorehouses definitely bring to mind Little finger as well. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

is all pretty clear. The decision that Jon would go to the Wall was not Jon's but made in Catelyn's bedchamber

I think our opinions on what it pretty clear differ widely. 

Yes, the decision was made in the bed chamber but it was after Luwin told Ned Jon wished to take the black. Ned considered the option & then allowed it. 

Someone asking to do something is not someone being forced to do something no matter how things are looked at. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon expressed a desire to join the NW in a drunken state. They did not agree to have him reconsider this choice after he had sobered up, nor did they give him the opportunity to make an informed decision, telling him with what kind of men he would have to serve at the Wall

Jon's drunken state doesn't matter because he doesn't regret it later. He never says to himself or anyone else "oh, I really wish I wouldn't have said I wanted to join the watch when I was drunk. 

Him not being offered a chance to reconsider sober still does not mean he was forced. Besides that Luwin says nothing of Jon making the statement drunk so there would be no reason for Ned to give a sober Jon a chance to reconsider. Same thing for not telling him what kind of men he would serve with. Not trying to talk someone out of something is not forcing them. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

is also quite clear that Cat would not suffer Jon in Winterfell after she started to rule there in her husband's name, and that Ned actually accepted that

What is quite clear is that Ned absolutely has the power to ignore Cat's wishes & command that she keep Jon there. He doesn't do this because he thinks it will do Jon no good, not because it is out of his power. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, that goes without saying, but it doesn't mean he would have to fear for his life. Randyll is an ass, but I actually don't think he would have actually murdered Samwell. He said that to intimidate him, but I doubt he would have gone through with it

Sam would fear for his life until his father died. I don't know if Randyll would have followed through on the threat or not but Sam, who knows him better than either of us, seems to think he would. Your doubting his willingness to go through with it does nothing to alleviate Sam's fears. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said anything about Sam returning to the Reach. He could have settled in the North, in the Gifts, he could have gone to Essos or Ibben or beyond the Wall. Jon could have written to Robb/Luwin/Bran to ask them to take Sam in as a steward. That would have been a better solution to push Aemon to allow him to take the black before he was ready to do it

I didn't say anything about him returning to the reach. It isn't as if Randyll stays hidden in his castle. He could have ran into Sam or got word he was not at the wall at a number of places. 

Regardless of what Jon could have done (Sam was hardly his responsibility, he did what he could to help) Sam had a very real fear of his father & felt as if he had no choice. Jon certainly didn't feel as if he had no choice. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And after Randyll threatened to murder Samwell he was definitely under no obligation to obey any commands this man gave him, father or no

Not being under any legal obligation to obey his father would have done him a whole lot of good after the 'accident' he suffered for disobeying. This is a classic case of being made to do something forcibly. 

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

@Lord Varys

An Order like the Night's Watch is a "calling" as you say.  It is not a 9-5 job where people are only committed to a paycheck.  The Watch has a lot in common with the military, the priesthood, monasteries, and such.  All previous loyalties and affections are left behind and fall behind the Order in importance.  Only that can bind men who come from different backgrounds and may meet a past enemy to work together.  It's very serious stuff that a lot of the desk jockeys have trouble comprehending.  Nobody expects a retail clerk to die for his or her job.  Most policemen would not be expected to sacrifice the self to protect the public.  An order is a different matter.  It demands total commitment because they have a critical job to do.  I agree with your point on this matter.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think our opinions on what it pretty clear differ widely. 

Yes, the decision was made in the bed chamber but it was after Luwin told Ned Jon wished to take the black. Ned considered the option & then allowed it. 

Someone asking to do something is not someone being forced to do something no matter how things are looked at. 

Jon's drunken state doesn't matter because he doesn't regret it later. He never says to himself or anyone else "oh, I really wish I wouldn't have said I wanted to join the watch when I was drunk. 

Him not being offered a chance to reconsider sober still does not mean he was forced. Besides that Luwin says nothing of Jon making the statement drunk so there would be no reason for Ned to give a sober Jon a chance to reconsider. Same thing for not telling him what kind of men he would serve with. Not trying to talk someone out of something is not forcing them. 

Jon definitely regrets saying he would take the black once realizes the scum he has to serve with. And he realizes this on the way to the Wall, long before he even sees Castle Black.

Jon was as free in his decision as any adolescent is who half-jokingly/drunk says he would like to take on this or that serious commitment and then his parents seize the moment and push him to do that on the basis of the fact that he said he wanted to do that himself. That's no free and informed decision in my book.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What is quite clear is that Ned absolutely has the power to ignore Cat's wishes & command that she keep Jon there. He doesn't do this because he thinks it will do Jon no good, not because it is out of his power.

He could command her to keep Jon - but he could not prevent Cat from treating Jon badly as is evidenced by this thought of Cat's:

Quote

Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

With Robb still being there one really wonders who might have made the bastard's life miserable after Ned had left...

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sam would fear for his life until his father died. I don't know if Randyll would have followed through on the threat or not but Sam, who knows him better than either of us, seems to think he would. Your doubting his willingness to go through with it does nothing to alleviate Sam's fears. 

I didn't say anything about him returning to the reach. It isn't as if Randyll stays hidden in his castle. He could have ran into Sam or got word he was not at the wall at a number of places. 

Regardless of what Jon could have done (Sam was hardly his responsibility, he did what he could to help) Sam had a very real fear of his father & felt as if he had no choice. Jon certainly didn't feel as if he had no choice. 

Not being under any legal obligation to obey his father would have done him a whole lot of good after the 'accident' he suffered for disobeying. This is a classic case of being made to do something forcibly.

Can you give us any quote that Sam actually continued to be afraid that his father might murder him after he had left Horn Hill? I don't recall anything of that sort. Sam is still intimidated by his father and wants to obey his command not to become a maester later on, but he nowhere ever tells us that he believes the man would murder him (or thinks that).

In any case, the fact remains that Sam could have done whatever the hell he wanted to do - like Jon - after he left Horn Hill. He did not have to say the words. That he didn't think about that is his problem, not the problem of the question at hand.

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

@Lord Varys

An Order like the Night's Watch is a "calling" as you say.  It is not a 9-5 job where people are only committed to a paycheck.  The Watch has a lot in common with the military, the priesthood, monasteries, and such.  All previous loyalties and affections are left behind and fall behind the Order in importance.  Only that can bind men who come from different backgrounds and may meet a past enemy to work together.  It's very serious stuff that a lot of the desk jockeys have trouble comprehending.  Nobody expects a retail clerk to die for his or her job.  Most policemen would not be expected to sacrifice the self to protect the public.  An order is a different matter.  It demands total commitment because they have a critical job to do.  I agree with your point on this matter.

I really don't think that's a controversial issue among most readers. The reason why the Watch is like it is are given very early on in the story and they are elaborated on later on.

But one has to keep in mind that discipline should actually be more important now that there is so much scum in the Watch than in the past when most men saw the Watch as a great calling and duty and never even contemplated leaving their posts.

One can make points why a boy like Jon Snow should have been let off the hook for his two crucial offenses shortly after he swore his vow, but it also smells of favoritism if one keeps in mind whose bannerman Jeor Mormont once was and how dependent the Watch is to have good relations with the Starks (especially in light of the fact that the First Ranger also happens to be a Stark). And Jon didn't was as lenient with Janos Slynt as Mormont and the officers of the Watch in general were with him.

Jon trying to make things better for Sam also is something good - but doing that by making him a man of the Watch before/without him being ready is also problematic because the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. And Sam does fail in his task beyond the Wall. Him later slaying the Other is effectively an accident, something anyone with an obsidian weapon could have done. If he had figured out in advance that dragonglass might be a weapon against the others by using his unique gifts (reading, interests in books, rational thinking, being perceptive) one could say Jon was vindicated there.

And one also has to keep in mind that Sam's elevation without proper justification is also one of the reasons why Chett came up with his murderous plans. If there hadn't been a Sam Tarly in the Watch, there may have been no mutiny at Craster's Keep.