On Janos Slynt

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The real question is why his father was so dead set against Sam going to the Citadel.  Wouldn’t Sam taking his vows as a Maester pave the way for Dickon’s inheritance of Horn Hill?  I know his father made a big deal about Tarly’s not serving anyone, yet ironically enough Sam’s first duty in the Night’s Watch is serving the Castle’s maester.

IMHO - because I think Randyll is a total dick - the idea was to send Sam somewhere where he wouldn't be in the public eye (and chances of him dying there pretty high without Randyl having to arrange it himself, thus, no kinslayer). If he was sent to the Citadel, people would know Randyll fathered a softie, and if he was assigned as someone's maester, the word might spread.

But I really hate Randyll, so my view is biased.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon definitely regrets saying he would take the black once realizes the scum he has to serve with. And he realizes this on the way to the Wall, long before he even sees Castle Black

He is upset he wasn't told but he doesn't say anything of not joining. He doesn't turn around & go back. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon was as free in his decision as any adolescent is who half-jokingly/drunk says he would like to take on this or that serious commitment and then his parents seize the moment and push him to do that on the basis of the fact that he said he wanted to do that himself. That's no free and informed decision in my book

He wasn't half joking though & we just have no indication he felt pushed or forced into it. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He could command her to keep Jon - but he could not prevent Cat from treating Jon badly as is evidenced by this thought of Cat's

Yes that's my point exactly. It wasn't because he couldn't command Cat to keep him. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you give us any quote that Sam actually continued to be afraid that his father might murder him after he had left Horn Hill? I don't recall anything of that sort. Sam is still intimidated by his father and wants to obey his command not to become a maester later on, but he nowhere ever tells us that he believes the man would murder him (or thinks that

What is it he fears so much then? That his father will scold him? He is still very fearful when he tells Jon his story & when he doesn't want to be a master - long after he has taken the black. If he isn't afraid his father will kill or seriously injure him, why would he be afraid to disobey him? 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In any case, the fact remains that Sam could have done whatever the hell he wanted to do - like Jon - after he left Horn Hill. He did not have to say the words. That he didn't think about that is his problem, not the problem of the question at hand

Sure just the same as Theon could have done whatever he wanted to in Ramsay's possession. Ramsay has no legal right to Theon, nor is Theon obligated in any way to follow his direction. He does it out of fear of the consequences just like Sam. Jon does not do it out of fear of the consequences. 

 

[Buried Treasure]

Sam may have well had freedom to choose what he wanted to do after leaving Horn Hill, but that is not quite the same as doing whatever he wanted, because after his father cast him out he lacked the resources to necessarily succeed.

Let's say Sam had decided not to take the oath after his father's men had dumped him at Castle Black, and that he did decide at that point he wanted to become a maester. It seems that the Citidel is open to applicants so he only had to get there, but the NW was under no obligation to help him on that journey. He has good clothes, perhaps he could have traded that for some food or shelter, but in the hard north nobody has enough to spare to give him more than a couple of meals. He would not have been able to pay passage on a ship and nobody looking at him would have offered him the chance to work his passage. So his freedom not to join the Watch was a freedom to freeze or starve.

This is much the same as the peasant boys who choose to follow a recruiter to a Wall rather than go hungry, and even the criminals who opt for the Wall rather the punishment. They all choose the NW, but only because the alternatives are worse for them. And having made that choice they are hardly likely to change their minds once at the Wall, where the NW might let them go free after gelding or taking a hand according to the original punishment, but then would have cast them out with even less resources to survive than if they had chosen the punishment back in their hometown.

The likes of Jon and Waymar Royce had less stark choices, they could have have left the Wall before saying the words and returned to the their childhood homes. But as bastards and younger sons they weren't assured of always having a place, I doubt Waymar would have chosen the honour of serving the NW is he were the eldest son. The Wall was always only the choice for those whose other options were worse, even when it was an honourable option for lords and knights many were exiles or had otherwise lost their place - I have a strong suspicion that the turning point for recruitment to the NW was when the Golden Company was created, giving an alternative 'honourable exile'.

However poor their options every man who joins the NW makes their choice. Most don't deserve to have that choice thrust on them, but those are the injustices of their wider society, the NW isn't about justice and holds them all to their oaths equally. Jon killing Janos Slynt wasn't for justice but for discipline against one who was flaunting orders, even if it felt like justice to Jon privately. Jon allowing Mance to roam free wasn't justice, but 'he' had already been seen to be publicly punished for his oath-breaking, and there was political expediency not interfering will Melisandre's plans as well as good own hopes for his sister.

 

[867-5309]

8 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

However poor their options every man who joins the NW makes their choice. Most don't deserve to have that choice thrust on them, but those are the injustices of their wider society, the NW isn't about justice and holds them all to their oaths equally. Jon killing Janos Slynt wasn't for justice but for discipline against one who was flaunting orders, even if it felt like justice to Jon privately. Jon allowing Mance to roam free wasn't justice, but 'he' had already been seen to be publicly punished for his oath-breaking, and there was political expediency not interfering will Melisandre's plans as well as good own hopes for his sister.

 

Mance Rayder is guilty of flaunting orders too.  And much, much worse.  Being "seen to be publicly punished for his oath-breaking" is the perpetuation of a lie.  Jon is guilty of not only failing to carry out justice.  He is guilty of supporting and participating in a lie. And lied himself. The pink letter exposed his lie and so his decisions have proven to be wrong. 

[Buried Treasure]

47 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

Mance Rayder is guilty of flaunting orders too.  And much, much worse.  Being "seen to be publicly punished for his oath-breaking" is the perpetuation of a lie.  Jon is guilty of not only failing to carry out justice.  He is guilty of supporting and participating in a lie. And lied himself. The pink letter exposed his lie and so his decisions have proven to be wrong. 

I don't disagree with you here, letting Mance go free isn't justice.

I'm saying that Jon isn't prioritising justice or trying to enforce the rules of the Nights Watch equally for all. He prioritises the needs of the Watch foremost, and the need to maintain discipline by executing oathbreakers was seen to be fulfilled - which is what Jon actually believed was happening during the burning. 

When he learns of Melisandre's ploy he goes along with it in part because he has a hope of Mance saving Arya, but also because it is Mel's plan, and it does not serve the Watch to oppose her (and by extension Stannis) to serve justice at that time.

[kissdbyfire]

It’s crunch time. If people can’t see past empty words, humanity is doomed. It’s a simple choice, really, either stick to vows blindly, or aim higher... try to save as many as you can, no matter what. Yes, it is that simple. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

I really don't think that's a controversial issue among most readers. The reason why the Watch is like it is are given very early on in the story and they are elaborated on later on.

But one has to keep in mind that discipline should actually be more important now that there is so much scum in the Watch than in the past when most men saw the Watch as a great calling and duty and never even contemplated leaving their posts.

One can make points why a boy like Jon Snow should have been let off the hook for his two crucial offenses shortly after he swore his vow, but it also smells of favoritism if one keeps in mind whose bannerman Jeor Mormont once was and how dependent the Watch is to have good relations with the Starks (especially in light of the fact that the First Ranger also happens to be a Stark). And Jon didn't was as lenient with Janos Slynt as Mormont and the officers of the Watch in general were with him.

Jon trying to make things better for Sam also is something good - but doing that by making him a man of the Watch before/without him being ready is also problematic because the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. And Sam does fail in his task beyond the Wall. Him later slaying the Other is effectively an accident, something anyone with an obsidian weapon could have done. If he had figured out in advance that dragonglass might be a weapon against the others by using his unique gifts (reading, interests in books, rational thinking, being perceptive) one could say Jon was vindicated there.

And one also has to keep in mind that Sam's elevation without proper justification is also one of the reasons why Chett came up with his murderous plans. If there hadn't been a Sam Tarly in the Watch, there may have been no mutiny at Craster's Keep.

Samwell returns the favor, which is a criticism of their personalities, by making Jon the commander even though he was not the proper fit for command.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 13. Dezember 2019 at 7:45 AM, Ygrain said:

IMHO - because I think Randyll is a total dick - the idea was to send Sam somewhere where he wouldn't be in the public eye (and chances of him dying there pretty high without Randyl having to arrange it himself, thus, no kinslayer). If he was sent to the Citadel, people would know Randyll fathered a softie, and if he was assigned as someone's maester, the word might spread.

But I really hate Randyll, so my view is biased.

Nah, that's called good judgement!  He also basically said Brienne should be raped, humiliated her and didn't let her stay for the night, while she was the courtesy in person.This guy is a gross asshole and I wouldn't be upset, if he accidentally dies *evil* 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:33 PM, 867-5309 said:

Mance Rayder is guilty of flaunting orders too.  And much, much worse.  Being "seen to be publicly punished for his oath-breaking" is the perpetuation of a lie.  Jon is guilty of not only failing to carry out justice.  He is guilty of supporting and participating in a lie. And lied himself. The pink letter exposed his lie and so his decisions have proven to be wrong. 

Exactly what the pink letter exposed him of.  Jon was guilty of a big public lie.  Rattleshirt was executed but he led the public into believing it was Mance Rayder.  Mance Rayder should have been executed but instead he was sent on a very illegal mission to take Jon's sister away.  Jon lied to the NW men and the realm.  Mance was a dangerous public enemy who is guilty of oathbreaking and treason. Not to mention warring against the watch.  The letter exposed the lie at the wall and the wildlings who got caught revealed the lie in Winterfell. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon was guilty of a big public lie.  Rattleshirt was executed but he led the public into believing it was Mance Rayder.

Why must you exaggerate & twist things? Jon didn't lead the public into believing it was Mance Rayder, Jon thought it was Mance Rayder. 

12 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Mance Rayder should have been executed but instead he was sent on a very illegal mission to take Jon's sister away.

More bs & you know it. You spout the same nonsense over & over with no text to back it up. Show me a quote that Mance was sent by Jon on a "very illegal" mission to take Jon's sister away. 

You cannot because it isn't what happened. 

14 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon lied to the NW men and the realm.

More exaggeration, more bs. Where is the quote of Jon lying to the NW? Where is the quote of Jon lying to the realm? 

Don't you get tired of saying the same things over & over? You must because you typically don't even try to defend them. You stop by, spew some nonsense, & ignore the responses that prove you wrong. 

[LadyBlackwater]

On 12/29/2019 at 12:04 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Nah, that's called good judgement!  He also basically said Brienne should be raped, humiliated her and didn't let her stay for the night, while she was the courtesy in person.This guy is a gross asshole and I wouldn't be upset, if he accidentally dies *evil* 

I would like Randyl Tarly to die in a non accidental way lol. Also I would like it to be humiliating. Is there any situation that puts him in a dress first? 

[Loose Bolt]

3 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

I would like Randyl Tarly to die in a non accidental way lol. Also I would like it to be humiliating. Is there any situation that puts him in a dress first? 

There seems to be demand for services of Ungregor.