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On Janos Slynt

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On 11/24/2019 at 10:22 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon owed it to the Nightswatch to give Slynt a chance

He gave Slynt not one, not two, but three chances. How many more should he have given? 

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3 hours ago, Big P said:

Mance Rayder didn't order Edd Tollett to go to Mole's Town and bring back the women.  Jon did.  Mance Rayder didn't order himself to go on this mission.  Jon did.  There is no need for the fancy disguise if all the mission was is to open the gates and make Arya welcome.  The mission called for the infiltration of Winterfell.  That is the reason for the bard disguise and all of the elaborate planning that went with it.  Jon remembered the story of Mance working his way into Winterfell and enjoying Robert's feast.  Jon knew Mance was the best person to get his sister out.  Jon didn't just sign off on the mission, he was part of it and it was done under his command.  Mance Rayder is a crow under the command of Jon Snow.  And Jon had both the authority and the duty to execute Mance Rayder. 

 

We weary of requesting textual back up for this puerile nonsense.The mission was to rescue a girl on a dying horse approaching Castle Black.No mention of infiltrating Winterfell at all.

None whatsoever.No Winterfell.No infiltration.

Therefore you have an alternative to consider.Mance did the entire 'ignore Jon's mission and infiltrate Winterfell' thing of his own volition.His own design.

You Stark hater types like to paint Mance in simple terms as an oath breaker.He certainly is.

But through successfully arranging a mass exodus from an existential threat to all realms he gets a pass from me.And Jon.

And frankly anyone with a lick of sense.

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21 hours ago, redriver said:

Mance was not Jon's prisoner.He was Stannis's prisoner.

Jon did not send Mance to get Arya out of Winterfell.Can you show me where it says he did?

That's just wrong. Stannis handed Mance-Rattleshirt over to Jon's authority and that's made repeatedly clear in the book. Mance was Jon's man and did only what Jon asked of him.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just wrong. Stannis handed Mance-Rattleshirt over to Jon's authority and that's made repeatedly clear in the book. Mance was Jon's man and did only what Jon asked of him.

Not really. Jon asks for men & Stannis gives him Rattleshirt but Mance/Rattleshirt makes it pretty clear that he will not wear the black cloak or become a crow. 

Stannis gives him Rattleshirt to use, but not to keep. 

He also doesn't do only what Jon asks of him. It is Melisandre that asks him to go to fArya. Surely if Mance is "Jon's man" Mel cannot give him orders or ask things of him right? 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
add last sentence

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not really. Jon asks for men & Stannis gives him Rattleshirt but Mance/Rattleshirt makes it pretty clear that he will not wear the black cloak or become a crow. 

Stannis gives him Rattleshirt to use, but not to keep. 

That's you inventing things. This is what George R. R. Martin actually wrote:

Quote

"Thank you, but no."

"As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow." The king waved a hand at Rattleshirt. "Him."

Lady Melisandre smiled. "You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies."

Jon was aghast. "Your Grace, this man cannot be trusted. If I keep him here, someone will slit his throat for him. If I send him ranging, he'll just go back over to the wildlings."

"Not me. I'm done with those bloody fools." Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard."

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Perhaps not, Jon thought, but you do.

"I'll range for you, bastard," Rattleshirt declared. "I'll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I'll even fight for you. Just don't ask me to wear your cloak."

You are not worthy of one, Jon thought, but he held his tongue. No good would come of squabbling before the king.

Mance makes it clear he is Jon's man now, despite the fact that he is not going to wear a black cloak.

Later on this point is reinforced again:

Quote

Jon realized that his words were wasted. Stannis would take the Dreadfort or die in the attempt. The Night's Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder. "Your Grace, I know where you might find more men. Give me the wildlings, and I will gladly tell you where and how."

"I gave you Rattleshirt. Be content with him."

"I want them all."

In fact, the only wildling at the Wall Jon doesn't have jurisdiction over when Stannis leaves for Deepwood is Val - and he doesn't care about that restriction, does he?

Jon himself announces that Rattleshirt is not going to leave CB without his leave, meaning that when he went he went so with Jon's blessing and at his command:

Quote

Snow wrenched his arm away. "I think not. You do not know this creature. Rattleshirt could wash his hands a hundred times a day and he'd still have blood beneath his nails. He'd be more like to rape and murder Arya than to save her. No. If this was what you have seen in your fires, my lady, you must have ashes in your eyes. If he tries to leave Castle Black without my leave, I'll take his head off myself."

Jon also allows Mance access to and hands him over the wildling women. He knows what they are planning, regardless of the vision Mel had. We don't know the details, but it is clear that they either thought they would have to infiltrate Winterfell or they actually planned for that, thinking to prevent the vision Mel had of the girl fleeing alone on a dying horse - which could easily have resulted in her being recaptured after the horse had died.

If Jon had just wanted to pick 'Arya' up like he later picked up Cregan Karstark he could have gone down south himself - or had some trusted black brothers do that. It would be within his rights to offer sanctuary at the Wall at least until Lord Ramsay or Lord Roose would formally demand that Lady Arya be handed over to them.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's you inventing things. This is what George R. R. Martin actually wrote:

I said: 

Jon asks for men & Stannis gave him Rattleshirt

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

"You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies."

This says Jon said he wanted men & that he is being given Rattleshirt.

Then I said:

Mance makes it pretty clear he will not wear the black cloak or become a crow.

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

"I'll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I'll even fight for you. Just don't ask me to wear your cloak."

Mance says he will not wear the cloak & thus will not become a crow. He is literally bound to Melisandre via the Ruby. If anything he is Melisandre's man.

So what exactly did I invent??

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mance makes it clear he is Jon's man now, despite the fact that he is not going to wear a black cloak.

How exactly is he Jon's man now if he won't wear a black cloak? He is no different than the other Queen's men &/or wildlings who agreed to follow Jon's orders in return for food etc. Is every single Queen's man & wildling on the wall Jon's man then?

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, the only wildling at the Wall Jon doesn't have jurisdiction over when Stannis leaves for Deepwood is Val - and he doesn't care about that restriction, does he?

He has jurisdiction over them yes, that doesn't make them his men. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Snow wrenched his arm away. "I think not. You do not know this creature. Rattleshirt could wash his hands a hundred times a day and he'd still have blood beneath his nails. He'd be more like to rape and murder Arya than to save her. No. If this was what you have seen in your fires, my lady, you must have ashes in your eyes. If he tries to leave Castle Black without my leave, I'll take his head off myself."

This is not within his power to command. He says it & probably would follow through with it if she sent Rattleshirt after Arya but the mere fact that Mel thinks she can do this means he is not Jon's man. 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 
 
"Me save her, you mean? The Lord o' Bones?" He laughed. "No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools. Snow's not that. If his sister needs saving, he'll send his crows. I would."
"He is not you. He made his vows and means to live by them. The Night's Watch takes no part. But you are not Night's Watch. You can do what he cannot."
 
Melisandre summons him to her, & starts giving him the low down without Jon even present. She specifically tells him "you are not Night's Watch" If he were Jon's man he would be Night's Watch & answering to Jon's summons, not Mel's. 
 
40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon also allows Mance access to and hands him over the wildling women. He knows what they are planning, regardless of the vision Mel had. We don't know the details, but it is clear that they either thought they would have to infiltrate Winterfell or they actually planned for that, thinking to prevent the vision Mel had of the girl fleeing alone on a dying horse - which could easily have resulted in her being recaptured after the horse had died.

 "I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind."

The wildling women are no more Jon's than they are Mance's. He knows Mance has a ploy in mind. IIRC that's all we are told. So, how would he know what they are planning? Jon specifically says while reflecting on Stannis's letter that it's a rare tender moment for Stannis to say "I'll save your sister if I can" Jon then thinks that if Mel's visions are right Arya has already or will have already escaped WF by the time Mance gets to her. Mance says nothing of infiltrating WF & even when Mel & him are speaking prior to bringing Jon into the conversation they only talk of picking up a fleeing Arya. I didn't read anything that suggested they were thinking to prevent the vision Mel had of the girl fleeing. She tells Mance what she saw in the surrounding area in her vision. Why do that if the plan is not to find this place? 
What does it matter if she could have easily been recaptured after the horse died? I assume that is why they want to get to her before the horse dies, to prevent her being recaptured. 
 
48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Jon had just wanted to pick 'Arya' up like he later picked up Cregan Karstark he could have gone down south himself - or had some trusted black brothers do that. It would be within his rights to offer sanctuary at the Wall at least until Lord Ramsay or Lord Roose would formally demand that Lady Arya be handed over to them.

Right. So not taking Mance's head off when he is going to pick up a fleeing Arya or going to infiltrate WF (I don't believe Jon knows anything about this but let's say he does) is breaking his vows but going himself or ordering his brothers to pick up Arya is not? Jon specifically says he cannot go, he cannot help her, as much as he would like to. Mel says Mance can do what Jon cannot. The whole reason this is allowed & Jon doesn't fight it is because Mance is not his man & because he is not under his command. If he were it would be considered involving the NW in matters of the realm or family. Jon & Mel both make this pretty clear. 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I said: 

Jon asks for men & Stannis gave him Rattleshirt

This says Jon said he wanted men & that he is being given Rattleshirt.

Then I said:

Mance makes it pretty clear he will not wear the black cloak or become a crow.

Mance says he will not wear the cloak & thus will not become a crow. He is literally bound to Melisandre via the Ruby. If anything he is Melisandre's man.

So what exactly did I invent??

You are trying to weasel your way out of the facts by writing things like that:

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He has jurisdiction over them yes, that doesn't make them his men. 

This a feudal world. Mance-Rattleshirt said he is Jon's man and thus he is that. Stannis also made it clear he is no longer his man - he has been given as a gift to Jon Snow. Jon can do as he pleases with Mance-Rattleshirt.

Things are somewhat different for Mel who remains Stannis' woman but as a guest at the Watch she also has to defer to Jon Snow to a point. But the wildlings all belong to Jon after Stannis left - aside from Val.

The conversation you give takes place only between Mance and Mel, not Jon. And it is even there stretching things because Stannis has handed over Mance to Jon. Mel's idea is to use the wildling so Jon can somewhat distance himself from the mission, but that's pushing things already.

However, this plan isn't follow. Jon doesn't accept the idea to send Rattleshirt, and then Mel reveals Mance's true identity and Jon himself authorizes the entire thing. Originally Mel wanted to suggest Rattleshirt as the guy to do it and then, one assumes, they would have pretended she sent him out without Jon's knowledge - but that's not what happened.

Jon isn't only their accomplice he is the one who authorized the whole thing. He is responsible.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The wildling women are no more Jon's than they are Mance's. He knows Mance has a ploy in mind. IIRC that's all we are told. So, how would he know what they are planning? Jon specifically says while reflecting on Stannis's letter that it's a rare tender moment for Stannis to say "I'll save your sister if I can" Jon then thinks that if Mel's visions are right Arya has already or will have already escaped WF by the time Mance gets to her. Mance says nothing of infiltrating WF & even when Mel & him are speaking prior to bringing Jon into the conversation they only talk of picking up a fleeing Arya. I didn't read anything that suggested they were thinking to prevent the vision Mel had of the girl fleeing. She tells Mance what she saw in the surrounding area in her vision. Why do that if the plan is not to find this place? 

The chapter ends there, but the conversation wouldn't be over. Jon's own memory later makes it clear that he sent Mance and his women out there. He unleashed them on the North.

Nobody would need a ploy to pick up a girl on the road who is looking for help.

There is some internal inconsistency in there, but it is clear that as things are written Jon either knew/suspected what they were planning or signed off on that without knowing. After all, he didn't tell Mance to remain behind.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What does it matter if she could have easily been recaptured after the horse died? I assume that is why they want to get to her before the horse dies, to prevent her being recaptured.

Because they all don't know whether the vision Mel saw was a future or a present or even a past vision. Now, if it were a past vision they would, perhaps, stumble on the girl on the road or at least her tracks if she had already been recaptured. If it were a present vision they might find her in time before she was recaptured. If it were a future vision they would go down to Winterfell long before the girl even made her attempt.

And it seems that's what Mance wants to do. He has no reason to infiltrate Winterfell aside from saving Arya.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. So not taking Mance's head off when he is going to pick up a fleeing Arya or going to infiltrate WF (I don't believe Jon knows anything about this but let's say he does) is breaking his vows but going himself or ordering his brothers to pick up Arya is not? Jon specifically says he cannot go, he cannot help her, as much as he would like to. Mel says Mance can do what Jon cannot. The whole reason this is allowed & Jon doesn't fight it is because Mance is not his man & because he is not under his command. If he were it would be considered involving the NW in matters of the realm or family. Jon & Mel both make this pretty clear. 

No, Mel is just lying and pushing Jon to pretend they can do this. She is no Westerosi and doesn't really care much about their laws. Stannis also just provided his semen to murder Renly and Penrose, but he is still responsible for that because he signed those things off and made them possible (and even dragged Davos into the latter assassination).

Jon cannot go himself, cannot send black brothers to Winterfell to steal his sister, but he also cannot send wildlings to do that job for him ... because if he does and if they are captured the Boltons have the same right - or even a greater right - to beat him into pulp and eat his heart as Robert had a right to kill Rhaegar after the Lyanna thing.

Jon did not only interfere with the affairs of the Realm he also came between a husband and his wife - which is also something that's not tolerated in Westeros.

It would have been very wrong even if it worked - but if it not worked Jon Snow basically killed himself and the NW as an instutition, especially if he were to corrupt his own men enough to stand with him agains the Boltons and the North rather than doing what they did - kill him. Because if Stannis is dead then killing Jon was the only way to restore the honor of the Watch and save the institution as such. Because that would prevent the Boltons and their allies from attacking CB.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are trying to weasel your way out of the facts by writing things like that:

I said, almost verbatim, what you quoted from the text. Explain to me how that is weaseling my way out of the facts?

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This a feudal world. Mance-Rattleshirt said he is Jon's man and thus he is that. Stannis also made it clear he is no longer his man - he has been given as a gift to Jon Snow. Jon can do as he pleases with Mance-Rattleshirt.

But Mel saying specifically that Mance isn't Night's Watch & that he is bound to her via the ruby doesn't show that he is Mel's man? 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Things are somewhat different for Mel who remains Stannis' woman but as a guest at the Watch she also has to defer to Jon Snow to a point. But the wildlings all belong to Jon after Stannis left - aside from Val.

Sure, they all have to defer to Jon to a point but there are certainly liberties taken & just because you say the wildlings all belong to Jon after Stannis left doesn't make it so.

Jon has some power over the wildlings, yes, but he is not their Lord Commander anymore than Mance is. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The conversation you give takes place only between Mance and Mel, not Jon. And it is even there stretching things because Stannis has handed over Mance to Jon. Mel's idea is to use the wildling so Jon can somewhat distance himself from the mission, but that's pushing things already.

You are ignoring what the text says though. Melisandre does not say her idea is to use the wildling so Jon can "somewhat" distance himself from the mission. She says she wants to save Jon's sister so that Jon will trust her. She also says Mance is capable of doing this because he is not bound by the vows Jon is. 

This appears to be weaseling around the facts to suit your own agenda. We are given clear & concise statements from Melisandre as to why she wants to do this & why it's ok for Mance to do it & not Jon. You are changing that to make it something it isn't. 

And yes the conversation given was between Mance & Mel, that was my point. Melisandre & Mance are plotting this together, with out Jon's knowledge to begin with. Something that I see as odd if Mance is in fact, Jon's man.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However, this plan isn't follow. Jon doesn't accept the idea to send Rattleshirt, and then Mel reveals Mance's true identity and Jon himself authorizes the entire thing. Originally Mel wanted to suggest Rattleshirt as the guy to do it and then, one assumes, they would have pretended she sent him out without Jon's knowledge - but that's not what happened.

Yes, Jon offers no dissent to the plan after Mel reveals Rattleshirts true identity. I don't know what the plan was or why they still couldn't pretend it was without Jon's knowledge if that's what they wanted to do. 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon isn't only their accomplice he is the one who authorized the whole thing. He is responsible.

Jon did not authorize the whole thing because Jon was not asked if it was ok. He was told Melisandre was going to send Rattleshirt to rescue a fleeing Arya, to which Jon says he will remove his head first. She then reveals that it is Mance because the whole reason she is doing this is to get Jon to trust her, something that will not be accomplished if she sends Rattleshirt after her. Jon is never asked permission or his advice. He is told & does not dissent to it. So he allows it, yes, but he does not authorize it nor is he responsible for it. That's kind of the whole point is that he isn't responsible for it & thus isn't breaking any vows.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The chapter ends there, but the conversation wouldn't be over. Jon's own memory later makes it clear that he sent Mance and his women out there. He unleashed them on the North.

Yes, the conversation wouldn't be over but where does his own memory make it clear that he sent Mance & his women out there? 

LOL! He unleashed them on the North!! I don't even know what that means honestly. They weren't leashed to begin with (well Mance was but since it was Mel that had him leashed, it would be her who unleashed him)

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody would need a ploy to pick up a girl on the road who is looking for help.

He doesn't need a ploy to pick up a girl on the road looking for help. That isn't what it says. He wants the women so that Arya will trust him more (maybe he is lying but it seems reasonable to me that she would be more trusting of women) I don't think he necessarily needs 6 women for that but he says they will help him with his own ploy - his own. Nothing to do with Arya or a ploy to pick up Arya. 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some internal inconsistency in there, but it is clear that as things are written Jon either knew/suspected what they were planning or signed off on that without knowing. After all, he didn't tell Mance to remain behind.

Ok, maybe I've missed this part or don't remember it but what exactly in the text makes you feel as if it is clear to Jon what they are planning? I agree he did not know. Why would he tell Mance to remain behind? I'm a little confused by this whole sentence, sorry. 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because they all don't know whether the vision Mel saw was a future or a present or even a past vision. Now, if it were a past vision they would, perhaps, stumble on the girl on the road or at least her tracks if she had already been recaptured. If it were a present vision they might find her in time before she was recaptured. If it were a future vision they would go down to Winterfell long before the girl even made her attempt.

They do know it isn't a past vision. 

"... for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will."

 

So, when Mel shares the vision with Jon this has not happened yet. Possibly it has happened or is in the process of happening when Mance leaves ( I assume Mel has some idea of when it happens & this is why she sends Mance when she does but that is just speculation on my part) What is clear though is that it isn't a past vision. 

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And it seems that's what Mance wants to do. He has no reason to infiltrate Winterfell aside from saving Arya.

Then why not just say outright he is going to infiltrate WF? Why all the conversation about the girl fleeing on the horse, what the surrounding depicts in the vision? I assume his own "ploy" is his reason to infiltrate WF but we don't know yet. 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, Mel is just lying and pushing Jon to pretend they can do this. She is no Westerosi and doesn't really care much about their laws. Stannis also just provided his semen to murder Renly and Penrose, but he is still responsible for that because he signed those things off and made them possible (and even dragged Davos into the latter assassination).

She isn't even speaking to Jon when she first says it, she says it to Mance. What would be the motive to lie to him about it? I also find it a little odd that in the previous chapters Jon states a couple times that he has no sister, cannot help her, his vows won't allow it but doesn't question this at all? Don't you think he would if he was still responsible for it? 

Whether or not she is Westerosi or cares about their laws she knows Jon does. Jon isn't stupid, he knows his vows & the laws. If he were disregarding them here he would say so. 

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

on cannot go himself, cannot send black brothers to Winterfell to steal his sister, but he also cannot send wildlings to do that job for him ... because if he does and if they are captured the Boltons have the same right - or even a greater right - to beat him into pulp and eat his heart as Robert had a right to kill Rhaegar after the Lyanna thing.

The plan wasn't to steal his sister. What is the whole point in Mel's vision if it doesn't matter if she is fleeing or not? Why not just have Jon tell Mance to go steal Arya the moment he hears Arya is to be wed to Ramsay? He can't send his black brothers to fight Ramsay or to rescue Arya because he would be asking them to break their vows. Clearly he can ask the wildlings to do this (but cannot command them to do so - because he does not own them, does not lead them, they follow orders to be allowed to remain on the wall & be fed & sheltered) because this is exactly what he does later. He asks the wildlings to stand with him to march on WF. If the whole ordeal & plan was always just to infiltrate WF & rescue Arya why not do this then? Rally the wildlings & march on WF? 

You are saying he cannot send wildlings to do that for him because if he does & they are captured the boltons can kill them but then maintaining that Jon sent Mance & the spearwives (wildlings) to infiltrate WF where they do get captured & presumably are being killed. Don't those two things contradict themselves? 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon did not only interfere with the affairs of the Realm he also came between a husband and his wife - which is also something that's not tolerated in Westeros.

Except he didn't. He allowed Mance to go. So he allowed Mance to potentially come between a husband & a wife. He didn't order Mance to go, he didn't give his consent (because that would imply he was being asked permission & he was not) he just didn't oppose it. It is not Jon's responsibility to protect Ramsay's marriage. That the girl in question is his sister & thus he is happy that she will not have to suffer at the hands of Ramsay if they do succeed in finding her does not negate the first part. 

He did not interfere with the affairs of the realm. He tried to when he attempted to march on WF but that happened later. At this point he had not. 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would have been very wrong even if it worked - but if it not worked Jon Snow basically killed himself and the NW as an instutition, especially if he were to corrupt his own men enough to stand with him agains the Boltons and the North rather than doing what they did - kill him. Because if Stannis is dead then killing Jon was the only way to restore the honor of the Watch and save the institution as such. Because that would prevent the Boltons and their allies from attacking CB.

His NW men were not given the option of either standing with him against the Boltons or killing their LC. Jon specifically tells them he would not ask them to forsake their vows to do this. 

Again, though at this point we aren't talking about him asking anyone to stand with him against the Boltons or him asking anyone anything at all.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just wrong. Stannis handed Mance-Rattleshirt over to Jon's authority and that's made repeatedly clear in the book. Mance was Jon's man and did only what Jon asked of him.

No it isn't.Stannis handed Rattleshirt to Jon not Mance.

And he made it clear Jon was free to use him not kill him.

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1 hour ago, redriver said:

No it isn't.Stannis handed Rattleshirt to Jon not Mance.

And he made it clear Jon was free to use him not kill him.

Stannis knows who Rattleshirt is. That's why he handed him over to Jon.

There is no indication that Stannis - who approved on the execution of Slynt - would have any issues with Jon killing Rattleshirt-Mance if the latter displeased him. Stannis knew to who he was giving the man.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

´But Mel saying specifically that Mance isn't Night's Watch & that he is bound to her via the ruby doesn't show that he is Mel's man? 

That is either Mel lying (the ruby contains the glamor, it does not control Mance's thoughts) or Mel not giving a damn/not understanding things. Her opinion that Mance wouldn't act on Jon's orders doesn't make it so - especially not in the eyes of the public as the Pink Letter confirms. Mance or his women revealed they were at Winterfell with Jon Snow's authorization so he can rightfully be attacked over this.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, they all have to defer to Jon to a point but there are certainly liberties taken & just because you say the wildlings all belong to Jon after Stannis left doesn't make it so.

But that's what Jon demands and that's what he gets (Val aside). And he got Mance long before that.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You are ignoring what the text says though. Melisandre does not say her idea is to use the wildling so Jon can "somewhat" distance himself from the mission. She says she wants to save Jon's sister so that Jon will trust her. She also says Mance is capable of doing this because he is not bound by the vows Jon is. 

Which is nonsense - because Mance is a former black brother and thus as much not allowed to interfere in affairs of the Realm as Jon and any black brother is. People lying/twisting the facts/not understanding them doesn't change that.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

And yes the conversation given was between Mance & Mel, that was my point. Melisandre & Mance are plotting this together, with out Jon's knowledge to begin with. Something that I see as odd if Mance is in fact, Jon's man.

They are talking about it together then they bring Jon in and signs off on their crazy plan. He is the one authorizing it, the truly guilty party here.

If Mel had sent out Mance without Jon's knowledge things would be different - but she did not.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, Jon offers no dissent to the plan after Mel reveals Rattleshirts true identity. I don't know what the plan was or why they still couldn't pretend it was without Jon's knowledge if that's what they wanted to do.

They never wanted to do anything without Jon's knowledge. Mel wants to do Jon a favor - and for that he needs to know that she is doing him a favor. She did not want Arya to some day show up at CB with some goon of Mel's bringing her - she wanted that Jon knew she was going to great lengths to save his sister so that - once Arya is safely at CB - Jon is going to thank her properly.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon did not authorize the whole thing because Jon was not asked if it was ok. He was told Melisandre was going to send Rattleshirt to rescue a fleeing Arya, to which Jon says he will remove his head first. She then reveals that it is Mance because the whole reason she is doing this is to get Jon to trust her, something that will not be accomplished if she sends Rattleshirt after her. Jon is never asked permission or his advice. He is told & does not dissent to it. So he allows it, yes, but he does not authorize it nor is he responsible for it. That's kind of the whole point is that he isn't responsible for it & thus isn't breaking any vows.

The chapter ends. Jon went with the plan. He could have killed Mance then, he could have imprisoned him and/or Mel, he could have simply commanded them to do nothing ... instead he himself says later on that he allowed Mance to go. He is the responsible party.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, the conversation wouldn't be over but where does his own memory make it clear that he sent Mance & his women out there? 

Quote

A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north. “Young ones, and pretty,” Mance had said. The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole’s Town. It seemed like madness now. He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself. Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the late King-Beyond-the-Wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak. He had even less trust in Melisandre. Yet somehow here he was, pinning his hopes on them. All to save my sister. But the men of the Night’s Watch have no sisters.

That is pretty clear, no. Jon sent Mance down south, he admits as much - as did Mance himself or one of his women when Ramsay interrogated them.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He doesn't need a ploy to pick up a girl on the road looking for help. That isn't what it says. He wants the women so that Arya will trust him more (maybe he is lying but it seems reasonable to me that she would be more trusting of women) I don't think he necessarily needs 6 women for that but he says they will help him with his own ploy - his own. Nothing to do with Arya or a ploy to pick up Arya. 

That's not what Mance says. Mance doesn't need 'Arya' to trust him because they come to take her where she, presumably, wants to go, anyway. Nowhere is there any indication that Mance needs women to win the trust of a girl on the road.

In fact, if they had thought they would not need to infiltrate Winterfell there would be no need for the women at all - and if Mance had thought he would find Arya on the road he wouldn't have made any plans to infiltrate Winterfell nor would he have ever infiltrated it. He would have just waited on the road.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ok, maybe I've missed this part or don't remember it but what exactly in the text makes you feel as if it is clear to Jon what they are planning? I agree he did not know. Why would he tell Mance to remain behind? I'm a little confused by this whole sentence, sorry. 

They do know it isn't a past vision. 

"... for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will."

Well, that's just Mel's claim. But, sure, it turned out to be one such. No idea though how Mel can keep them apart. They do not come with a time stamp.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Then why not just say outright he is going to infiltrate WF? Why all the conversation about the girl fleeing on the horse, what the surrounding depicts in the vision? I assume his own "ploy" is his reason to infiltrate WF but we don't know yet. 

This is why the text there makes little sense and is partially contradictory.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Whether or not she is Westerosi or cares about their laws she knows Jon does. Jon isn't stupid, he knows his vows & the laws. If he were disregarding them here he would say so. 

Mel and Mance talk Jon into agreeing with him there. He wants to save Arya so he agrees to their plan. Later he comes to regret it, especially after he realizes Mel interpreted her vision the wrong way.

But he clearly cares more about Arya than the law or his own honor or even the institution he is running. Because he must know that the Boltons will destroy him if they defeat Stannis and ever find out what he did.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The plan wasn't to steal his sister. What is the whole point in Mel's vision if it doesn't matter if she is fleeing or not? Why not just have Jon tell Mance to go steal Arya the moment he hears Arya is to be wed to Ramsay? He can't send his black brothers to fight Ramsay or to rescue Arya because he would be asking them to break their vows. Clearly he can ask the wildlings to do this (but cannot command them to do so - because he does not own them, does not lead them, they follow orders to be allowed to remain on the wall & be fed & sheltered) because this is exactly what he does later. He asks the wildlings to stand with him to march on WF. If the whole ordeal & plan was always just to infiltrate WF & rescue Arya why not do this then? Rally the wildlings & march on WF?

Again, part of the contradictory thing. If one wants to make sense of it one could, perhaps, say that the vision sort of fueled Jon's hope that Arya would get away from the Boltons - either by herself or with Mance's help. After all, if the vision is a future vision then the girl might have ended up on her dying horse with Mance's help.

It is quite clear, though, that Jon didn't take any steps to prevent Mance from doing what he did. Just as it is clear that Mance and his women are doing what they do for Jon.

This is all on him - there is no way to weasel out of that. And he never does. He takes responsibility for the actions of his man just as Ned took responsibility for Tyrion's abduction despite the fact that he really had nothing to do with that.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You are saying he cannot send wildlings to do that for him because if he does & they are captured the boltons can kill them but then maintaining that Jon sent Mance & the spearwives (wildlings) to infiltrate WF where they do get captured & presumably are being killed. Don't those two things contradict themselves? 

Jon acted irrationally. He didn't think things through.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Except he didn't. He allowed Mance to go. So he allowed Mance to potentially come between a husband & a wife. He didn't order Mance to go, he didn't give his consent (because that would imply he was being asked permission & he was not) he just didn't oppose it. It is not Jon's responsibility to protect Ramsay's marriage. That the girl in question is his sister & thus he is happy that she will not have to suffer at the hands of Ramsay if they do succeed in finding her does not negate the first part. 

That is the kind of legal prattle people would never use in this world. Jon knew of the plan and he authorized it - if he hadn't, Mance wouldn't have gone. He even takes responsibility for it when he reads the Pink Letter out loud. He never denies that he sent Mance out there nor does he ever try to distance himself from his actions and deeds. That would make him a coward.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He did not interfere with the affairs of the realm. He tried to when he attempted to march on WF but that happened later. At this point he had not. 

Sure, if had gotten his hands on Lady Bolton somehow he wouldn't have returned her to her lord husband. He would have helped her to flee. Which would have interfered with the affairs of the Realm to no small degree.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

His NW men were not given the option of either standing with him against the Boltons or killing their LC. Jon specifically tells them he would not ask them to forsake their vows to do this. 

Again, though at this point we aren't talking about him asking anyone to stand with him against the Boltons or him asking anyone anything at all.

Even if it were just Jon leading wildlings against the North he would still be the Lord Commander of the NW - and his brothers would be guilty of not stopping him - just as the black brothers knowing about the perversions of the Night's King but don't doing anything about them are guilty of suffering an oathbreaker as their Lord Commander, too.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis knows who Rattleshirt is. That's why he handed him over to Jon.

There is no indication that Stannis - who approved on the execution of Slynt - would have any issues with Jon killing Rattleshirt-Mance if the latter displeased him. Stannis knew to who he was giving the man.

There is no proof that stannis knew who rattleshirt was. In fact given what we know of stannis personality I would say he doesn t know. Stannis doesn t use this kind of methods… It just isn t him… And if you are sure stannis knew about the Exchange at least give a quote that supports that theory.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is either Mel lying (the ruby contains the glamor, it does not control Mance's thoughts) or Mel not giving a damn/not understanding things. Her opinion that Mance wouldn't act on Jon's orders doesn't make it so - especially not in the eyes of the public as the Pink Letter confirms. Mance or his women revealed they were at Winterfell with Jon Snow's authorization so he can rightfully be attacked over this.

This whole paragraph is wrong. Mel claims that the ruby makes mance obey her, not that it controls his thoughts… And who are you to say otherwise? Do you have any quotes to support your opinions?

And one importante subject people like to talk about is if mance arrived at winterfell with mel's bracelet (?) that disguised and controled him or not. So we are not even sure if he is still under mel's control or not while he is in winterfell...

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is nonsense - because Mance is a former black brother and thus as much not allowed to interfere in affairs of the Realm as Jon and any black brother is. People lying/twisting the facts/not understanding them doesn't change that.

If he is a former black brother then he isn t bound by his oaths… And in regards to the whole mance situation, if there is someone that has the jurisdiction to decide if the NW wants to kill mance or not is its LC. 

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They are talking about it together then they bring Jon in and signs off on their crazy plan. He is the one authorizing it, the truly guilty party here.

If Mel had sent out Mance without Jon's knowledge things would be different - but she did not.

Jon agrees to send mance to help a girl ridding a dying horse to the Wall. Where did jon aprove of mance going to winterfell and rescue arya? Because they are 2 completly diferent situations!

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The chapter ends. Jon went with the plan. He could have killed Mance then, he could have imprisoned him and/or Mel, he could have simply commanded them to do nothing ... instead he himself says later on that he allowed Mance to go. He is the responsible party.

yeah… jon imprisoning mel would do wonders for the NW...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is pretty clear, no. Jon sent Mance down south, he admits as much - as did Mance himself or one of his women when Ramsay interrogated them.

Again, sending mance to help a girl on a dying horse ridding to the Wall is diferent from sending mance to winterfell to rescue arya…

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not what Mance says. Mance doesn't need 'Arya' to trust him because they come to take her where she, presumably, wants to go, anyway. Nowhere is there any indication that Mance needs women to win the trust of a girl on the road.

In fact, if they had thought they would not need to infiltrate Winterfell there would be no need for the women at all - and if Mance had thought he would find Arya on the road he wouldn't have made any plans to infiltrate Winterfell nor would he have ever infiltrated it. He would have just waited on the road.

Quote
"Are we talking about betrayals? What was the name of that wildling wife of yours, Snow? Ygritte, wasn't it?" The wildling turned to Melisandre. "I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind."
"What is he talking about?" Lord Snow asked her.
"Your sister." Melisandre put her hand on his arm. "You cannot help her, but he can."
 

 Did mance just say he needed women to win the girl's trust? The justification mance and mel give jon is exactly that mance needs women to convence arya to trust him… If there was a plan to infiltrate winterfell jon didn t know about and mel doesn t mention it when discussing the situation with mance. It is a mistery for the readers why mance went to winterfell. We dont know why he didn t wait on the road for farya, if he went to winterfell because he heard farya was still there or if that was his ploy all along.

You are treating your opinions as facts when there is no evidence if you are right… The only thing we know for certain is that neither jon nor probably mel wanted him to go to winterfell.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

This is why the text there makes little sense and is partially contradictory.

It isn t contraditory. The text explicity has mance saying he needs women to win farya's trust and mel and jon accepting his justification. you are the one that thinks he doesn t need the women.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Mel and Mance talk Jon into agreeing with him there. He wants to save Arya so he agrees to their plan. Later he comes to regret it, especially after he realizes Mel interpreted her vision the wrong way.

But he clearly cares more about Arya than the law or his own honor or even the institution he is running. Because he must know that the Boltons will destroy him if they defeat Stannis and ever find out what he did.

If he cared more about Arya than the law or his own honor or even the institution he is running he would have deserted and gone himself to rescue her. He could even have written to stannis saying he accepted his offer to be lord of winterfell as long as they saved farya...

Jon doesn t do any of these things. He tries to find a loopwhole to help arya. This isn t a black and white situation. It is a grey scenario and you can t force it to be white and grey. 

And once again. As LC jon doesn t have to obey the boltons or act in their interest. If a girl rides to the Wall he doesn t have to return her to the boltons. It might not be the best political move for the NW to opose the boltons… But jon isn t their vassal… 

Finally, and what if stannis wins and finds out that jon helped the boltons? then he would destroy the NW... Jon makes a series of decisions that can t be judged as if the north was a stable region… He has much more liberty to act at the moment than if the boltons had the north completly under their control….

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, part of the contradictory thing. If one wants to make sense of it one could, perhaps, say that the vision sort of fueled Jon's hope that Arya would get away from the Boltons - either by herself or with Mance's help. After all, if the vision is a future vision then the girl might have ended up on her dying horse with Mance's help.

It is quite clear, though, that Jon didn't take any steps to prevent Mance from doing what he did. Just as it is clear that Mance and his women are doing what they do for Jon.

This is all on him - there is no way to weasel out of that. And he never does. He takes responsibility for the actions of his man just as Ned took responsibility for Tyrion's abduction despite the fact that he really had nothing to do with that.

IT isn t contradictory. You are the one making it contradictory. The vision is a girl riding a dying horse to the Wall. Mel convinces jon to send mance to help the girl riding the dying horse. 

There isn t a single moment that anyone thinks that the girl might have escaped because of mance's actions. And jon couldn t prevent mance from going to winterfell because that wasnt the plan. He had no way to know he would do that….

Ned took responsability of tyrion's abduction in order to protect cat. Mance's actions are those of a soldier that disobeys orders to do what he wants. They are 2 dvery diferent scenarios. And while I agree that jon is guilty of trusting mance I don t find him responsable for mance's actions. He believed that mel could control him and that he would simply be helping a girl ridding a horse...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, if had gotten his hands on Lady Bolton somehow he wouldn't have returned her to her lord husband. He would have helped her to flee. Which would have interfered with the affairs of the Realm to no small degree.

And returning her to the boltons wouldn t interfer with the affairs of the realm? Who is he to stop a girl running away from a marriage? He doesn t have the responsability to help ramsay keep his wife...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if it were just Jon leading wildlings against the North he would still be the Lord Commander of the NW - and his brothers would be guilty of not stopping him - just as the black brothers knowing about the perversions of the Night's King but don't doing anything about them are guilty of suffering an oathbreaker as their Lord Commander, too.

So he should let ramsay kill him? Ramsay was the one that threatned to attack the NW. Jon thought that was the best way to act in response to ramsay's threats. How are any of the NW members guilty of not stopping him? He is marching the wildlings in order to protect the NW...

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just wrong. Stannis handed Mance-Rattleshirt over to Jon's authority and that's made repeatedly clear in the book. Mance was Jon's man and did only what Jon asked of him.

Indeed he was.  Some people seem to forget the undeniable fact that Mance Rayder is a man of the night's watch.  Jon wanted him to get Arya and so Mance went.

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4 hours ago, redriver said:

No it isn't.Stannis handed Rattleshirt to Jon not Mance.

And he made it clear Jon was free to use him not kill him.

Mance was Jon's.  Mance Rayder is still a man of the night's watch.  There is nothing Stannis or anyone can do that will change that. Jon should have executed Mance for his extensive crimes.  

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2 hours ago, Ponzi Scheme said:

Mance was Jon's.  Mance Rayder is still a man of the night's watch.  There is nothing Stannis or anyone can do that will change that. Jon should have executed Mance for his extensive crimes.  

For leading an entire nation to safety?

You would have executed Moses?

I'm pretty sure he broke Egyptian law.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is either Mel lying (the ruby contains the glamor, it does not control Mance's thoughts) or Mel not giving a damn/not understanding things. Her opinion that Mance wouldn't act on Jon's orders doesn't make it so - especially not in the eyes of the public as the Pink Letter confirms. Mance or his women revealed they were at Winterfell with Jon Snow's authorization so he can rightfully be attacked over this

We don't really know what the Ruby does exactly but Mel doesn't say it controls anyone thoughts she says it binds him to her. If Mel doesn't understand the ruby then who does? It's her magic, that she did. She certainly could be lying but I don't see any reason to assume she is. 

I don't think she said Mance wouldn't act on Jon's orders either. Mance says he will act on his orders to an extent. The same extent all the wildlings will act upon his orders but they will not don the cloak. 

Where in the PL does it say Mance & Co are there with Jon's "authorization"? It doesn't. It implies Jon knows they are there, which he does know some. He knew they went after a fleeing Arya. 

The PL wants to attack Jon over things he has no control over so I don't think it is really the look to document when deciding if Jon is responsible or not. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But that's what Jon demands and that's what he gets (Val aside). And he got Mance long before that

Jon doesn't demand they become his men. He specifically tells the wildlings & men with Stannis the opposite. That they do not have to become his men (men of the NW) but they do have to follow his orders in regards to defending the wall. If one of Jon's men desert & are caught they are subject to death. That isn't true for the others. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is nonsense - because Mance is a former black brother and thus as much not allowed to interfere in affairs of the Realm as Jon and any black brother is. People lying/twisting the facts/not understanding them doesn't change that

If Mance is a former BB he isn't a current BB. You can't ignore that this is a special circumstance in that nothing of this nature has happened previously. It isn't going to fit in a neat little box of rules because there are too many other factors. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They are talking about it together then they bring Jon in and signs off on their crazy plan. He is the one authorizing it, the truly guilty party here

Why would he be the "truly guilty party here"? It wasn't his plan, he didn't put it in motion, Melisandre nor Mance are under his control as LC, but he is the one guilty here? That makes no sense. 

At any rate my point was that they are talking about it without Jon. Mel wants Jon to allow it because she wants to make him trust her. Doesn't mean if Jon said no they couldn't do it - they still could there would just be no point. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They never wanted to do anything without Jon's knowledge. Mel wants to do Jon a favor - and for that he needs to know that she is doing him a favor. She did not want Arya to some day show up at CB with some goon of Mel's bringing her - she wanted that Jon knew she was going to great lengths to save his sister so that - once Arya is safely at CB - Jon is going to thank her properly.

I know they didn't want to do it without Jon's knowledge but earlier you said Mel wanted to have "Rattleshirt" be the one to get Arya so that they could pretend Jon had no knowledge of it. I'm saying Rattleshirt or Mance they could still pretend Jon had no knowledge if that's what they wanted to do.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The chapter ends. Jon went with the plan. He could have killed Mance then, he could have imprisoned him and/or Mel, he could have simply commanded them to do nothing ... instead he himself says later on that he allowed Mance to go. He is the responsible party

He could have done any number of things that would have been terrible ideas. For starters how well do you think it would go for Jon if he tried to imprison Mel? Secondly, what do you think the other wildlings would do if they found out that Mance was actually alive but that LC Jon Snow removed his head for him all because Mel & Mance wanted to help his fleeing sister? 

He could have told them not to do it but why would he? "No, please don't do this thing that I desperately would like done but cannot do myself." He would have to be an idiot to do that. There is just no reason because he isn't the responsible party here. He allowed Mance to go, yes, he did not stop him or attempt to stop him nor did he express any dissent to him going. He also did not command or order him to go, convince him to go, or encourage him to go. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is pretty clear, no. Jon sent Mance down south, he admits as much - as did Mance himself or one of his women when Ramsay interrogated them

It's clear he allowed it not that he sent him. The PL is subject to much debate also, which I'm sure you are aware so it doesn't really prove anything until we have the author. 

I don't understand why this particular piece of text you take to prove it was all Jon's doings & he is the responsible party (I disagree that is what is shown) but the rest of the text that has been quoted showing the exact opposite you say is wrong or lies. Why is this piece of text not only right but can be read to prove clearly that Jon is the responsible party when that isn't what it says but the other text that says explicitly the opposite is wrong? 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not what Mance says. Mance doesn't need 'Arya' to trust him because they come to take her where she, presumably, wants to go, anyway. Nowhere is there any indication that Mance needs women to win the trust of a girl on the road

No he doesn't need them to make Arya trust him but it will make it easier for Arya to trust him. Just because some man comes up to her & says hey, I'm gonna take you where you want to go doesn't mean she is going to go quietly & trust him. I wouldn't. He could grab her & hold her captive but that isn't really ideal & I'm sure they would prefer to avoid that. 

Yes there is indication. Mance says it. He says the women will make Arya more likely to trust him. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

fact, if they had thought they would not need to infiltrate Winterfell there would be no need for the women at all - and if Mance had thought he would find Arya on the road he wouldn't have made any plans to infiltrate Winterfell nor would he have ever infiltrated it. He would have just waited on the road

He wants the women for 2 purposes. 1. So Arya will be more likely to trust him 2. For this other ploy that we don't know about. 

If he meets Arya on the road, the women will hopefully make Arya trust them more. 

We don't get Mance's journey so we don't know at what point the decision was made to infiltrate WF. Maybe he waited on the road & when she didn't show he decided to go to WF. Maybe he never went to the place Arya was supposed to be & decided to play out his ploy first &/or ignored meeting Arya all together. Maybe he went to WF to carry out his ploy & get Arya, killing 2 birds with one stone. We just don't know. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that's just Mel's claim. But, sure, it turned out to be one such. No idea though how Mel can keep them apart. They do not come with a time stamp

Mel's claim would be the supreme on the subject right? I don't know how Mel could know when something is going to happen but she clearly states this hasn't happened yet so either she does have a way or she is lying. Since I don't see any reason for her to lie about this & it also turned out to be true I'm inclined to believe she has a way.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is why the text there makes little sense and is partially contradictory

It's only contradictory if you take the stance you are taking. Taken at face value it all makes perfect sense. It's only contradicting your idea of what happened & why. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mel and Mance talk Jon into agreeing with him there. He wants to save Arya so he agrees to their plan. Later he comes to regret it, especially after he realizes Mel interpreted her vision the wrong way

Yes, he agrees & is later worried he may regret it. But just because you disagree that Mel's claim in regards to Mance is wrong doesn't mean the rest of them are lying. Clearly, Jon agrees with her claim & so does Mance. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he clearly cares more about Arya than the law or his own honor or even the institution he is running. Because he must know that the Boltons will destroy him if they defeat Stannis and ever find out what he did.

Again, if he doesn't care about the institution he is running then why the whole facade at all? Why not just go get his sister when he finds out she is being wed to Ramsay? Why all the internal thought about wanting to uphold his vows?

Ramsay Bolton doesn't need a legitimate reason to threaten the Watch or Jon. He has taken over WF under false pretenses. He has no issue creating a false reason to attack Jon if he wishes. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, part of the contradictory thing. If one wants to make sense of it one could, perhaps, say that the vision sort of fueled Jon's hope that Arya would get away from the Boltons - either by herself or with Mance's help. After all, if the vision is a future vision then the girl might have ended up on her dying horse with Mance's help

It isn't at all contradictory. It is only contradictory to your stance on the matter. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

is quite clear, though, that Jon didn't take any steps to prevent Mance from doing what he did. Just as it is clear that Mance and his women are doing what they do for Jon

Yes it's quite clear he didn't take any steps to prevent it but again why should he? Why would he? It would be plain ignorance to do so. 

Mance is doing it for Mel. Or at Mel's request. He has no reason to love Jon. Mel does remind him he owes Jon a debt so that may be part of the reason but he doesn't seem opposed to it even before she says that. Presumably the women are doing it for Mance or for adventure. They have no reason to do it for Jon either. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is all on him - there is no way to weasel out of that. And he never does. He takes responsibility for the actions of his man just as Ned took responsibility for Tyrion's abduction despite the fact that he really had nothing to do with that

That's a bad example. Ned took responsibility for something he wasn't responsible for. Jon knows he didn't stop them & so feels some responsibility for the outcome. Not a bad thing but it doesn't mean it's all on him. 1 person came up with the plan, 2 others agreed to it, & 6 more signed up. To say this is all on one of the people that agreed to it is absurd. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon acted irrationally. He didn't think things through

I'm asking you why in one sentence you said he could not send wildlings for fear of Bolton retribution & in the next say he did send wildlings who suffered Bolton retribution. Nothing to do with Jon or how he acted. I'm not understanding the statements & am asking for clarification. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is the kind of legal prattle people would never use in this world. Jon knew of the plan and he authorized it - if he hadn't, Mance wouldn't have gone. He even takes responsibility for it when he reads the Pink Letter out loud. He never denies that he sent Mance out there nor does he ever try to distance himself from his actions and deeds. That would make him a coward

It is no legal prattle, it's exactly what happened. The text shows it clearly. Jon knew of the plan to get a fleeing Arya. Jon allowed this to play out. Of course it wouldn't have happened without Jon's agreement but not because Jon can command Mance to do his bidding, because if Jon disagreed there is no point because the whole plan is laid out to gain his trust. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, if had gotten his hands on Lady Bolton somehow he wouldn't have returned her to her lord husband. He would have helped her to flee. Which would have interfered with the affairs of the Realm to no small degree

None of this happened. But again is it not Jon's responsibility to return Ramsay's wayward bride. Since we are talking hypotheticals though isn't is much more likely that upon receiving Lady Bolton & discovering she isn't Arya at all that Jon would then expose Ramsay for the liar he is? 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if it were just Jon leading wildlings against the North he would still be the Lord Commander of the NW - and his brothers would be guilty of not stopping him - just as the black brothers knowing about the perversions of the Night's King but don't doing anything about them are guilty of suffering an oathbreaker as their Lord Commander, too

I don't know that it is the responsibility of the members of the NW to control their LC & they certainly would not have to kill him to stop him. 

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45 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he might be a secret Targaryen. He did come in a bins basket after all. Nobody truly knows, who his parents are. 

But he grew up as Moses Snow, so yeah kill him!

:lmao:

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