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On Janos Slynt

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Very inaccurate comparison between Moses and Mance.  Moses was leading slaves to freedom.  Mance led outlaws, raiders, and criminals into the realm.  People forget, the wildlings are not a meek people who simply wanted nothing to do with laws.  They were people who raided and murdered law abiding people on the other side of the wall.  So much so that the lands closest to the wall had to be abandoned.  Mance Rayder is a sworn man of the Night's Watch who betrayed them because he got tired of obeying orders and not some high moral calling.  He is a man who can never be trusted.  He follows and makes his own rules.  He killed the servants of his host in Winterfell and violated guest rights.  His attacks killed a lot of crows at the wall.  The man is bad news. 

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3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Very inaccurate comparison between Moses and Mance.  Moses was leading slaves to freedom.  Mance led outlaws, raiders, and criminals into the realm.  People forget, the wildlings are not a meek people who simply wanted nothing to do with laws.  They were people who raided and murdered law abiding people on the other side of the wall.  So much so that the lands closest to the wall had to be abandoned.  Mance Rayder is a sworn man of the Night's Watch who betrayed them because he got tired of obeying orders and not some high moral calling.  He is a man who can never be trusted.  He follows and makes his own rules.  He killed the servants of his host in Winterfell and violated guest rights.  His attacks killed a lot of crows at the wall.  The man is bad news. 

And that's a very inaccurate description of the Wildlings.Some are raiders, killers and worse.The vast majority are not.

Much of the host consisted of women, children, elderly.

And don't forget they would likely be forming a huge army of dead soon if not allowed through.

Mance is one of my favourite characters!

Such a cool dude......

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7 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Very inaccurate comparison between Moses and Mance.  Moses was leading slaves to freedom.  Mance led outlaws, raiders, and criminals into the realm.  People forget, the wildlings are not a meek people who simply wanted nothing to do with laws.  They were people who raided and murdered law abiding people on the other side of the wall.  So much so that the lands closest to the wall had to be abandoned.  Mance Rayder is a sworn man of the Night's Watch who betrayed them because he got tired of obeying orders and not some high moral calling.  He is a man who can never be trusted.  He follows and makes his own rules.  He killed the servants of his host in Winterfell and violated guest rights.  His attacks killed a lot of crows at the wall.  The man is bad news. 

No. 

Mance = Moses Stark

It is known. 

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Far from the topic.  Very far indeed.  The Moses analogy in this story is not at the Wall.  Moses, if you all insists on finding a close match is Dany in Meereen.  Three pyramids and the plagues brought by the gods to force the slavers to free the slaves. 

Mance, Jon, and Janos have no biblical analogies.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. :)  The Wildlings are running away from a superior adversary.  The equivalent to me are the Rhoynar.  Mance is the Nymeria to his people.  It's a crude likeness but there it is. 

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1 hour ago, Finley McLeod said:

Far from the topic.  Very far indeed.  The Moses analogy in this story is not at the Wall.  Moses, if you all insists on finding a close match is Dany in Meereen.  Three pyramids and the plagues brought by the gods to force the slavers to free the slaves. 

Mance, Jon, and Janos have no biblical analogies.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. :)  The Wildlings are running away from a superior adversary.  The equivalent to me are the Rhoynar.  Mance is the Nymeria to his people.  It's a crude likeness but there it is. 

Leading a people from an existential threat.

There may be a clue somewhere..

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@Lord Varys @Lyanna<3Rhaegar

I don't think Mance is Jon's man, exactly.  If he's anyone's it's Mel's.  There is the ruby, plus she is the reason he is still alive.

Mance specifically tells Jon he needs women so that Arya will trust him.  No reason for Jon to doubt that.  He probably thinks that, if Arya sees a bunch of strange men, she will think they are Ramsay's, and will hide, or even fight them.  What Mance's ploy was, I don't know.  I don't know if Jon knows either.

I very much doubt that Jon had any idea that Mance would go to Winterfell.  It is quite clear from his previous thoughts that he felt he could not help Arya so long as she was in Ramsay's control.  It was only the belief that she had escaped that led him to accept help for her.  And even then, he is one step removed from it, as he might be able to claim that Mance is Mel's man doing her bidding (or so Jon hopes).

My guess is that he planned to sneak Arya into and out of Castle Black without anybody noticing or knowing who she is, probably sending her to Braavos.  Whether any of this is wise, or legal, is debatable.  But doing something  unwise and illegal merely puts him in the mainstream for characters in ASOIAF.  I, for one, wholly approve.

Not that any of this has anything to do with Janos Slynt, who got what he deserved.  He was massively insubordinate,and repeatedly so, and was a cancer in the ranks.  I will cry no tears for him.

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5 hours ago, redriver said:

Leading a people from an existential threat.

There may be a clue somewhere..

Well, he didn't do a good job splitting the sea. 

6 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

The Moses analogy in this story is not at the Wall.  Moses, if you all insists on finding a close match is Dany in Meereen.  Three pyramids and the plagues brought by the gods to force the slavers to free the slaves. 

But the Ghiscari arent her people.

So if you guys really want a nice Moses analogy.

6 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Far from the topic.  Very far indeed. 

Lol

Parents gave away a child, boy was raised thinking hes a prince. Now hes taking his people back to their ancestors homeland. Young Griff Moses.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

My guess is that he planned to sneak Arya into and out of Castle Black without anybody noticing or knowing who she is, probably sending her to Braavos.  Whether any of this is wise, or legal, is debatable.  But doing something  unwise and illegal merely puts him in the mainstream for characters in ASOIAF.  I, for one, wholly approve.

So, I don't think any of this is illegal. The laws regarding the watch are scarce, leading me to think there are little laws. 

(Obviously there are some laws, LCs are still crows after all. 

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Which Mance proceeds to break every single one of them) 

But in terms of this, "taking no part" business, I think it is more of a tradition then a law. Same with the execution of all deserters. 

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't think Mance is Jon's man, exactly.  If he's anyone's it's Mel's.  There is the ruby, plus she is the reason he is still alive.

So that ruby is something, certainly a stronger connection then Satin has with Jon, maybe just a tad less of a connection then Brynden with his stump. However all three are Jons men 

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

 

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36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, he didn't do a good job splitting the sea. 

But the Ghiscari arent her people.

So if you guys really want a nice Moses analogy.

Lol

Parents gave away a child, boy was raised thinking hes a prince. Now hes taking his people back to their ancestors homeland. Young Griff Moses.

So, I don't think any of this is illegal. The laws regarding the watch are scarce, leading me to think there are little laws. 

(Obviously there are some laws, LCs are still crows after all. 

Which Mance proceeds to break every single one of them) 

But in terms of this, "taking no part" business, I think it is more of a tradition then a law. Same with the execution of all deserters. 

So that ruby is something, certainly a stronger connection then Satin has with Jon, maybe just a tad less of a connection then Brynden with his stump. However all three are Jons men 

 

He didn't try to split the sea.He didn't have to.He just had to persuade some people to let his host through the Wall, persuade a king and his sorceress that he was better off alive than dead, and of course make himself useful to the Lord Commander of the NW.

But, if course if the had to split the sea he would have and furthermore it would remain split.

But it seems for the moment he's content to strum his lute on Roose Bolton's dais.

He's so awesome.....

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, he didn't do a good job splitting the sea

Haha!

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, I don't think any of this is illegal. The laws regarding the watch are scarce, leading me to think there are little laws.

Yeah for sure. It really isn't very clear what exactly the law is in regards to the NW other than what's in the oath. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which Mance proceeds to break every single one of them) 

Oh yeah. NW & realm laws, Mance broke most of them. Only thing I can think of that he maybe isn't guilty of is rape. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But in terms of this, "taking no part" business, I think it is more of a tradition then a law. Same with the execution of all deserters

Right. Taking no part isn't in the oath but it seems to be pretty important tradition or whatever because it's repeated alot. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So that ruby is something, certainly a stronger connection then Satin has with Jon, maybe just a tad less of a connection then Brynden with his stump. However all three are Jons men

I think it depends on what you mean by "Jon's men". Mance has no love for Jon so he isn't his man in the sense that he is loyal to him. Jon does have some jurisdiction over Mance because Mance is at the wall & Jon is LC. Jon would've been within his rights to execute Mance for desertion but he couldn't really make him a black brother & make him fully "his man" in the sense that the other crows are, if that makes sense? 

 

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38 minutes ago, redriver said:

He didn't try to split the sea.He didn't have to.He just had to persuade some people to let his host through the Wall, persuade a king and his sorceress that he was better off alive than dead, and of course make himself useful to the Lord Commander of the NW.

But, if course if the had to split the sea he would have and furthermore it would remain split.

But it seems for the moment he's content to strum his lute on Roose Bolton's dais.

He's so awesome.....

He really is a great character. He's hard not to like even if he did desert. Stupid LC should have just let him keep his damn cloak. But then we wouldn't have gotten Mance King beyond the wall, so I suppose I'm glad they tried to take it from him. 

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44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He really is a great character. He's hard not to like even if he did desert. Stupid LC should have just let him keep his damn cloak. But then we wouldn't have gotten Mance King beyond the wall, so I suppose I'm glad they tried to take it from him. 

While I agree that mance is the most legendary figure alive in asoiaf his story is kind of full of holes.

We know he as been gathering all the wildlings because of the others but he never captured a wight and presented it to the NW? He could have negotiated with the warden of the north and the NW safe passage for the wildlings… Alerted the world for the long night years ago...

He could have taken the gold from the wildlings and go to essos to buy boats to transport the wildlings somewhere safe...

Mance kind of doomed westeros by not raising the alarm sooner. And the same can be said about he 3er. These people have known about the others for years and did nothing to prepare mankind. The people in the north not even have weapons to kill the others! 

What did mance expect? cross the Wall conquer the north and then he would defeat the others how? He wanted to keep running south? Why? Eventually he would need to defeat the others...

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

While I agree that mance is the most legendary figure alive in asoiaf his story is kind of full of holes.

We know he as been gathering all the wildlings because of the others but he never captured a wight and presented it to the NW? He could have negotiated with the warden of the north and the NW safe passage for the wildlings… Alerted the world for the long night years ago...

He could have taken the gold from the wildlings and go to essos to buy boats to transport the wildlings somewhere safe...

Mance kind of doomed westeros by not raising the alarm sooner. And the same can be said about he 3er. These people have known about the others for years and did nothing to prepare mankind. The people in the north not even have weapons to kill the others! 

What did mance expect? cross the Wall conquer the north and then he would defeat the others how? He wanted to keep running south? Why? Eventually he would need to defeat the others...

We don't really know how much Mance knows about the others though. Does he know how to kill them? 

He wasn't really on negotiating terms with the NW either. 

I assume he thinks the wall will hold them at bay & that as long as he gets south of the wall he, his people, & the North won't have to worry about it. 

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We don't really know how much Mance knows about the others though. Does he know how to kill them? 

He wasn't really on negotiating terms with the NW either. 

I assume he thinks the wall will hold them at bay & that as long as he gets south of the wall he, his people, & the North won't have to worry about it. 

If people believed the Wall would hold the others stannis and jon wouldn t be so worried about getting more people to man the Wall...

And we know mance has killed hundreds of wights but was unable to kill a single other (how do you kill the cold?). However we know that the wildlings and northerns have formed aliances to defeat greater foes in the past. I can t imagine that the warden of the north and the NW would refuse their help if they had proof the the others were real and were preparing an atack.

I think the only justification for mance's strategy is that he wanted to use the oportunity to permanently gain lands south of the Wall. And it is a valid concern. Why be at the forefront of the fight if afterwards they would be sent back north? I just don t think this is enough… 

And I am not even talking about how the wildlings can be people without weapons and at the same time master warriors. Grrm's description os wildlings can t really be taken into account...

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10 hours ago, redriver said:

He didn't try to split the sea.

He did. Err, allegedly

10 hours ago, redriver said:

He didn't try to split the sea.He didn't have to.He just had to persuade some people to let his host through the Wall, persuade a king and his sorceress that he was better off alive than dead, and of course make himself useful to the Lord Commander of the NW.

But, if course if the had to split the sea he would have and furthermore it would remain split.

For sure, there are some good comparisons to Moses, but there are for Dany and Aegon too. Its like what Dick Whitman said

Quote

 "Think of me as Moses, I was a baby in a basket" 

"To Moses and Don Draper, a couple of Princes"

 

10 hours ago, redriver said:

But it seems for the moment he's content to strum his lute on Roose Bolton's dais.

He's so awesome.....

But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Northman's daughter.

Hes pretty awesome

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. It really isn't very clear what exactly the law is in regards to the NW other than what's in the oath. 

For sure. So the theory I have about the Nights King and Ides of Marsh says when the LC wilds his brothers are responsible for the killing and regicide. (Maybe the Old Bear too)

But right theres the other law, do what Stannis says or he'll chop your head off. Though its totally possible that Stannis has no responsibility at the Wall and thusly murdering a crow is simply murder.

Then again, can a king be a murderer? No, so yea. Nothings clear lol

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah. NW & realm laws, Mance broke most of them. Only thing I can think of that he maybe isn't guilty of is rape. 

Maybe lol. Uh, idk is he a thief? Im sure theres some greenland laws he never broke, at least one lol 

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. Taking no part isn't in the oath but it seems to be pretty important tradition or whatever because it's repeated alot. 

For sure. Everyone likes to talk about Harrens brother as a great example. Though why he would be loyal to his brother and nephews who watched him freeze on the wall, im not sure. Plus, what could he even do? 

So then theres Tywin who didnt raise a finger to help the Watch, in fact he wished for Mance to cross so the North would be distracted. Then theres Ramsay who threatened to attack CB, not much more different then Mance. 

I dont understand how the Wall can survive without taking part. Its like Illyrio said about spiderwebs, the whole asoiaf world is connected. Like these forums, lol, we started with the thread Robb&Jon which turned into Janos which is now Moses? Lol, its all connected

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think it depends on what you mean by "Jon's men". Mance has no love for Jon so he isn't his man in the sense that he is loyal to him. Jon does have some jurisdiction over Mance because Mance is at the wall & Jon is LC. Jon would've been within his rights to execute Mance for desertion but he couldn't really make him a black brother & make him fully "his man" in the sense that the other crows are, if that makes sense? 

Yea for sure. Idk. Mance said the words, so did Brynden. You cant unsay the words, right?

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He really is a great character. He's hard not to like even if he did desert. Stupid LC should have just let him keep his damn cloak. But then we wouldn't have gotten Mance King beyond the wall, so I suppose I'm glad they tried to take it from him. 

So being locked up is no good, especially when they did no wrong like Mance or Jon. If I was there, Id desert in a second. (Well maybe not if I knew of the Others)

But in terms of being at the wall, dress in black.

Though the desertion wasnt really about the color but more about basic liberty and the right of freedom of expression

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43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont understand how the Wall can survive without taking part. Its like Illyrio said about spiderwebs, the whole asoiaf world is connected. Like these forums, lol, we started with the thread Robb&Jon which turned into Janos which is now Moses? Lol, its all connected

I think in theory it is a good idea for the NW to not take sides in the disputes of westeros. It makes them friends to everybody and allows them to receive men from any lord...

The problem is when these disputes involve the north. IT is pretty much impossible for the NW to do anything besides following stannis wishes and feed his men as long as he is there… If the NW learns about something that might influence stannis sucess wether they inform stannis or not they are taking a side because with their inaction they are helping one side...

I think this idea to taking no sides only became sucessful because there hasn t been many disputes between northern lords.

 

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2 hours ago, divica said:

I think this idea to taking no sides only became sucessful because there hasn t been many disputes between northern lords.

How is that possible? The nw has been around for (roughly) 998 generations (999?). Aegons seven kingdoms have been around for considerably less.  

Therefore back in the day when Karstark and Bolton fought, or whomever, it was done in the Watches backyard (err, frontyard).

Eventually Stark ruled all and gave the nw a bribe, or a (the) gift. 

2 hours ago, divica said:

I think in theory it is a good idea for the NW to not take sides in the disputes of westeros. It makes them friends to everybody and allows them to receive men from any lord...

For sure, in theory thatd be ideal, which is why I think the facade is so immense. But Tywin believes the Wall to be the responsibility of the North, while Robb doesn't even address the situation. 

2 hours ago, divica said:

The problem is when these disputes involve the north. IT is pretty much impossible for the NW to do anything besides following stannis wishes and feed his men as long as he is there…

Ok, so right there I see nothing wrong. The NW guards the realms of men, if wildlings are people, whats Alys Karstark, or Stannis? Is Stannis not people? Lord Snow has provisions so Lord Snow provides.

2 hours ago, divica said:

If the NW learns about something that might influence stannis sucess wether they inform stannis or not they are taking a side because with their inaction they are helping one side...

Kings have no friends, only subjects and enemies.

But what's a LC to a king? Stannis says give me ownership of said castle and Jon said no with a bent knee. 

So really, whats a king to a LC? 

Its a dicey game with dusty rules

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4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How is that possible? The nw has been around for (roughly) 998 generations (999?). Aegons seven kingdoms have been around for considerably less.  

Therefore back in the day when Karstark and Bolton fought, or whomever, it was done in the Watches backyard (err, frontyard).

Eventually Stark ruled all and gave the nw a bribe, or a (the) gift.

We don t know when the policy to not get involved in the disputes of the 7 kingdoms started. 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, so right there I see nothing wrong. The NW guards the realms of men, if wildlings are people, whats Alys Karstark, or Stannis? Is Stannis not people? Lord Snow has provisions so Lord Snow provides.

It isnt an excuse for a king to use the resources of the NW... Nor for women that don t agree with the decisions of their familly members to seeks refuge with the NW and twart their political moves… This makes the NW get involved in the politics of westeros...

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Kings have no friends, only subjects and enemies.

But what's a LC to a king? Stannis says give me ownership of said castle and Jon said no with a bent knee. 

So really, whats a king to a LC? 

Its a dicey game with dusty rules

Jon ended up gaving a castle for stannis forces to stay… He is protecting and feeding his familly… these actions affect the politcs of westeros… 

 

As long as people with political ambitions show up at the Wall the NW takes sides in the politics of westeros no matter what the LC decides to do...

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1 hour ago, divica said:

As long as people with political ambitions show up at the Wall the NW takes sides in the politics of westeros no matter what the LC decides to do...

"This is so," Illyrio agreed, "but the world is one great web, and a man dare not touch a single strand lest all the others tremble.

1 hour ago, divica said:

We don t know when the policy to not get involved in the disputes of the 7 kingdoms started. 

I wonder if it happened pre gift or post gift

1 hour ago, divica said:

It isnt an excuse for a king to use the resources of the NW...l

Stannis is people. You cant just let him starve. Jon guards the realms, from others and wildlings, sure. From starvation, why not? (From Bolton?) Snows recourses are the Realms recourses. 

1 hour ago, divica said:

... Nor for women that don t agree with the decisions of their familly members to seeks refuge with the NW and twart their political moves…

So, yea, playing matchmaker with Thenn and Karstark is as political as you can get. Totally.

However giving her lodging and food, and even arresting her uncle (cousin?) Is not only legal, but the responsibility and correct movements of the LC

1 hour ago, divica said:

… This makes the NW get involved in the politics of westeros...

It is known

1 hour ago, divica said:

Jon ended up gaving a castle for stannis forces to stay… He is protecting and feeding his familly… these actions affect the politcs of westeros… 

How can he not give them lodging and food? Thats nw 101, and obviously, 7 kingdoms 101. Feed the king.

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