Jump to content

On Janos Slynt


kissdbyfire

Recommended Posts

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

So why Jon would trust the institution, I have no idea. I mean, what happened to the Old Bear?

Yeah Jon has Ned's mind. Thinks people will follow orders just because they are orders even when he is proven that isn't always the case. It's a flaw. 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

But Thornes commitment, I believe is to the NW and Wall. He knows the enemy. He went to KL with the wights hand (only to get laughed at by the Imp) after all.

 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

So it seems that either Allisers putting the commitment on hold for politics, or he actively believes that Jons leadership will doom the NW against the Others

I agree. If Alliser is involved in the stabbing it is because he thinks it's best for the watch. 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Word. I mean if hes dead, it on to the next one like a Pentoshi prince. If not, I dont think so. We never hear of LCs being voted out. Just murdered like the nights king

Yeah it seems so. There will likely be some un-happy campers over Jon being Caeser'd though, whether he is dead dead or only part-time dead.

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Do I miss him? Sure. But would Tyrion be the dark little imp he is now without going through that ordeal? No, and frankly, I adore dark Tyrion

Yes! Dark Tyrion is my favorite! 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

So here Ive got to disagree. Like Joff, i didnt wish for his death (because I didn't expect dark Tyrion to so ridiculously awesome)... But I did wish for Theons. Like, I actually wished harm on Reek. (Is it my fault?) I am no longer wishing harm on no body. No one deserves what Theon went through. Nobody. Not Theon, nor even Ramsa

Yeah I wanted Joff to die lol - like I wanted to keep reading about him but I didn't want him to make it to the end of the story unscathed. 

I wanted Theon to die too, I still do honestly but in the beginning I wanted him to die for punishment for what he did to the Starks, in the end I wanted him to die as a mercy. Ramsay is one sick puppy & I agree no one deserves that. 

On 11/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, I know its just a story. Which then has me thinking more, if I don't want Ramsay to die yet, maybe not even to the last page, why should he die at all? If all of these characters are fictitious why not hang my hat on Ramsay Bolton lol

Haha! Why not indeed? Could happen. I guess I just want to see some sense of justice. I don't want Ramsay to get away with all he has done & not have to suffer anything in return. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah Jon has Ned's mind. Thinks people will follow orders just because they are orders even when he is proven that isn't always the case. It's a flaw. 

I think grrm has made a flaw here.

We are constantly told how jon pays atention to what happens around him. Then he has jon listening to janos and thorne conspiring in favor of the lannisters, he has some NW members killing the previous LC, he has robb killed with a huge and unexpected betrayal, he has theon betraying the starks and almost killing bran and rickon, he has jon saying how the NW is full of criminals and some of them so bad  they can t never old positions of power (or something similar)...

And jon never fears people of the NW might try to kill him? They are living the worst moment of the NW history and there is pressure from stannis, the wildlings, lannisters and boltons for the NW to behave how they want. Jon is never afraid that someone would persuade some members of the NW to kill jon? That they woud rather kill him than accept wildlings? Jon should be worried about his security and actually care about having a tail at all times!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, divica said:

I think grrm has made a flaw here.

We are constantly told how jon pays atention to what happens around him. Then he has jon listening to janos and thorne conspiring in favor of the lannisters, he has some NW members killing the previous LC, he has robb killed with a huge and unexpected betrayal, he has theon betraying the starks and almost killing bran and rickon, he has jon saying how the NW is full of criminals and some of them so bad  they can t never old positions of power (or something similar)...

And jon never fears people of the NW might try to kill him? They are living the worst moment of the NW history and there is pressure from stannis, the wildlings, lannisters and boltons for the NW to behave how they want. Jon is never afraid that someone would persuade some members of the NW to kill jon? That they woud rather kill him than accept wildlings? Jon should be worried about his security and actually care about having a tail at all times!

Yeah it's odd isn't it? He is usually so observant & here he literally has Mel telling him to watch his back & keep Ghost close & he does the opposite. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah Jon has Ned's mind. Thinks people will follow orders just because they are orders even when he is proven that isn't always the case. It's a flaw. 

Its similar, definitely

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah it seems so. There will likely be some un-happy campers over Jon being Caeser'd though, whether he is dead dead or only part-time dead.

When Caesar died there were plenty of unhappy campers and the assassins were forced to make short term deals with Caesars generals. Civil wars, exiles and death eventually followed. And (a) Caesar wins in the end lol, like hes back from the dead. I could totally see something like that happen at the Wall. (So whos Antony? Meli? Giantsbane?)

So if Janos is the cause to the effect of Ides, is Slynt Pompeii? Lol damn smallfolk always reaching so high

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes! Dark Tyrion is my favorite! 

:D For real. 

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I wanted Joff to die lol - like I wanted to keep reading about him but I didn't want him to make it to the end of the story unscathed. 

For sure. If Ramsay or some sort of StoneheartJoff wins the game, well itll certainly put a damper on my spirits

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I wanted Theon to die too, I still do honestly but in the beginning I wanted him to die for punishment for what he did to the Starks, in the end I wanted him to die as a mercy. Ramsay is one sick puppy & I agree no one deserves that. 

Yea I get that. 

But nah, I want him to live. I mean who really needs all 32 teeth, and 10 toes, and 10 fingers... and a dick lol. I mean, life aint great. 

Quote

"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."

Tyrion replied with a shrug that accentuated the twist of his shoulders. "Speaking for the grotesques," he said, "I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

Idk, its more then that. Theons a remarkable character, one I really dont want to let go of. Ramsay one day has to pay for his sins, but Reek should to atone for his. 

He wasnt always Reek. Theons still there somewhere. One to live like his ancestors, maybe call shenanigans on that random clause on the kingmoot and dethrone the slaver and the murderer of his father. Or serve the current king and help Stannis smash the Bolton host. Or maybe something with Robbs last wishes, though he cant bring him back to life he can for Bran and Rickon. 

Life is just, full of possibilities

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Why not indeed? Could happen. 

Lol no way

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. I guess I just want to see some sense of justice. I don't want Ramsay to get away with all he has done & not have to suffer anything in return. 

Totally

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/21/2019 at 2:48 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There's no "probably" about it:

Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.

This is at the beginning of the conversation in which Jon orders Slynt to Greyguard. Which is to say, Jon is fantasizing about cutting off Janos Slynt's the day before he beheads him. Do you really think there's no connection?

 

Not once has Slynt been punished or chastised for his behaviour at the Wall. He behaved the same way he always did (which is to say, poorly and without grace). He believed himself untouchable, and nothing anybody had done had stripped him of that belief. To go from 'nothing' to 'execution' is over the top. I suppose we'll never know for sure whether or not Slynt could've been brought around, but his last words seem to indicate he could have been.

Jon owed it to the Nightswatch to give Slynt a chance.  After all, he himself could have been executed for attacking and trying to murder Aliser Thorne.  That he was forgiven seems to show tolerance among the brotherhood towards loose tempers.  He should have extended the same benefit to Slynt. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Caesar died there were plenty of unhappy campers and the assassins were forced to make short term deals with Caesars generals. Civil wars, exiles and death eventually followed. And (a) Caesar wins in the end lol, like hes back from the dead. I could totally see something like that happen at the Wall. (So whos Antony? Meli? Giantsbane?)

So if Janos is the cause to the effect of Ides, is Slynt Pompeii? Lol damn smallfolk always reaching so high

:lmao:Yes! Damn small folk.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure. If Ramsay or some sort of StoneheartJoff wins the game, well itll certainly put a damper on my spirits

Agreed.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But nah, I want him to live. I mean who really needs all 32 teeth, and 10 toes, and 10 fingers... and a dick lol. I mean, life aint great. 

haha! Yep. Life's tough, get a helmet. 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, its more then that. Theons a remarkable character, one I really dont want to let go of. Ramsay one day has to pay for his sins, but Reek should to atone for his. 

He wasnt always Reek. Theons still there somewhere. One to live like his ancestors, maybe call shenanigans on that random clause on the kingmoot and dethrone the slaver and the murderer of his father. Or serve the current king and help Stannis smash the Bolton host. Or maybe something with Robbs last wishes, though he cant bring him back to life he can for Bran and Rickon. 

Life is just, full of possibilities

Oh, I agree. Theon is a marvelous character & I can't wait to see what is in store for him but 

Spoiler

It's odd I know but when reading his chapter in tWoW & he is hanging from chains in Stannis's tent I feel so bad for him! I know being chained up is minor in comparison to what he has been through but that whole chapter I just think - FFS put him out of his misery! It's heart wrenching.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon owed it to the Nightswatch to give Slynt a chance.  After all, he himself could have been executed for attacking and trying to murder Aliser Thorne.  That he was forgiven seems to show tolerance among the brotherhood towards loose tempers.  He should have extended the same benefit to Slynt. 

This has been discussed pretty thoroughly up thread already. Not that there was any consensus on the subject but there are some talking points & things to think about if you are interested. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon owed it to the Nightswatch to give Slynt a chance.  After all, he himself could have been executed for attacking and trying to murder Aliser Thorne.  That he was forgiven seems to show tolerance among the brotherhood towards loose tempers.  He should have extended the same benefit to Slynt. 

I think this is pretty much the truth of the matter. No one else, not even Thorne in my opinion,  would have been executed that day for doing what Slynt had done. The chapter starts off with Jon fantasizing about murdering Slynt and he gets his wish, he was simply looking for an excuse and even abandon's Watch protocol, so he can carry it out himself.

 

From Jon's POV it is understandable, he wanted revenge against the man who killed his father and someone who is a rival to his leadership in the Watch. But morally and by the Watch's rules it is a mess. Slynt should have been made to rot in a cell, not murdered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think this is pretty much the truth of the matter. No one else, not even Thorne in my opinion,  would have been executed that day for doing what Slynt had done. The chapter starts off with Jon fantasizing about murdering Slynt and he gets his wish, he was simply looking for an excuse and even abandon's Watch protocol, so he can carry it out himself.

What protocol was abandoned? 

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

From Jon's POV it is understandable, he wanted revenge against the man who killed his father and someone who is a rival to his leadership in the Watch. But morally and by the Watch's rules it is a mess. Slynt should have been made to rot in a cell, not murdered.

Sure he might have wanted revenge against him but Slynt also repeatedly & vehemently refused a direct order from his Lord Commander. It doesn't seem to be a mess in regards to Watch rules, no one seems to bat an eyelash at it. 

It might have been the wrong thing morally but I suppose that's all in the eye of the beholder. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What protocol was abandoned? 

The Protocol of the Night's Watch. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us.

It comes out of the blue when suddenly Slynt is told he will die for doing so. No one suspected it, not even Jon.

Quote

Sure he might have wanted revenge against him but Slynt also repeatedly & vehemently refused a direct order from his Lord Commander.

How many orders did he disobey? And how many times did he disobey it?

Quote

 

It doesn't seem to be a mess in regards to Watch rules, no one seems to bat an eyelash at it. 

Are you kidding? Do you not see any correlation between Jon executing a watchman for disagreeing with him and the mutiny and that cost Jon his life?

This is wrong, Jon thought. "Stop."

"Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

There certainly seems to be a contingent of people who thought Jon went to far.

Some had chosen Jon to be their lord commander. Others had cast their stones for Bowen Marsh, Ser Denys Mal-lister, Cotter Pyke ... and some for Janos Slynt. Hundreds of them, as I recall. Jon wondered how many of those men were in the cellar right now. For a moment the world balanced on a sword's edge.

Quote

It might have been the wrong thing morally but I suppose that's all in the eye of the beholder. 

Sure. At no point have I criticized anyone's opinion in this thread on the subject. You are free to see it as you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Good point, wrong choice of word. But we saw the previous Lord Commander not execute people for disobeying orders. We never hear that as option for when Jon refuses an order.

It comes out of the blue when suddenly Slynt is told he will die for doing so.

Yeah for sure. We don't really see anyone else disobeying orders though. (when did Jon disobey an order?) I don't know what the "normal" punishment would be for it. 

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How many orders did he disobey? And how many times did he disobey it?

One order but he refused it many times. He was given multiple chances to comply. 

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you kidding? Do you not see any correlation between Jon executing a watchman for disagreeing with him and the mutiny and that cost Jon his life?

This is wrong, Jon thought. "Stop."

"Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

There certainl seems to be a contingent of people who thought Jon went to far.

Bowen certainly seems to be relieved when he hears Jon say stop but that's the only voice we get. I would argue that if there were a contingent of people or if Janos's beheading was the primary cause for Jon's stabbing that the stabbing would have happened sooner. It may have been one of many things piled on each other that sets Bowen over the edge but I don't think it had a whole lot to do with it. Bowen seems to feel as if he has to take Jon out "For the Watch" 

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. At no point have I criticized anyone's opinion in this thread on the subject. You are free to see it as you want.

Oh yeah, I know. I didn't mean to suggest you had. I was just saying I think there is less gray area when we are arguing it from a legal standpoint rather than a moral one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. We don't really see anyone else disobeying orders though. (when did Jon disobey an order?)

His vows are his orders and he disobeyed them, has he not?

Quote

I don't know what the "normal" punishment would be for it. 

Well it becomes pretty apparent that Slynt and Bowen, at the very least, did not think that his punishment would be death. It comes without warning and when Slynt is aware of the punishment he is contrite.

But we have a fair idea of what the normal punishment would be from Jon's own thoughts

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - "

-  and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt.

-  and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook.

That is Jon's initial thoughts on what Slynt warranted it. But Jon can't ignore both the past

Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.

Or a possible future where Janos might challenge him again. Janos is not executed for disobeying an order, he is executed for killing Ned and for what he may do in the future.

I can understand why Jon did it, but it does not make it the right move for the Lord Commander. Any other person and they'd be sitting in a cell. Jon ignored the Night Watch's vows that a man's crimes were wiped away.

Quote

One order but he refused it many times.

Twice. He refused it twice.

Quote

He was given multiple chances to comply. 

Two times. It undermines your argument when you need to exaggerate the amount of times he refused. I don't think you care how many times he said no, whether it was 10, 2 or even once there is no number where you would change your mind, so I'm not sure why you are saying 'many' and 'multiple' as all it looks like is that you are trying to convince others, not familiar with the text, that it was far more times than it actually was. 

Quote

Bowen certainly seems to be relieved when he hears Jon say stop but that's the only voice we get.

No, not entirely.

Some had chosen Jon to be their lord commander. Others had cast their stones for Bowen Marsh, Ser Denys Mal-lister, Cotter Pyke ... and some for Janos Slynt. Hundreds of them, as I recall. Jon wondered how many of those men were in the cellar right now. For a moment the world balanced on a sword's edge.

What do you think the author is trying to convey when he says the world was balanced on a sword's edge? Does it read to you that everyone was fine with Jon's decision?

Again, I have a feeling you are arguing in bad faith as I think you already knew beforehand that more than just Bowen was shocked by Jon's decision. I don't think your mind will be changed whether it was just Bowen and Thorne, a dozen men or around half of the Watch members in the Hall that were shocked with Jon's decision.

edit: Sorry, was not trying to be rude, but I genuinely think you are aware of both of these points. It does nothing for your overall argument, which is perfectly legitimate, in portraying them differently to the book.

Quote

 

I would argue that if there were a contingent of people

There clearly was. By Jon's own reckoning.

Quote

 

or if Janos's beheading was the primary cause for Jon's stabbing that the stabbing would have happened sooner.

How so?

First of all Jon had to do more stuff that they disagreed with, and then were unable to tell him 'no' and then have Jon be in a position to be vulnerable to an assassination. Jon had proved himself unwilling to listen to Watch members disobey orders and when he went too far in his orders they killed him.

Quote

 

It may have been one of many things piled on each other that sets Bowen over the edge but I don't think it had a whole lot to do with it. Bowen seems to feel as if he has to take Jon out "For the Watch" 

Okay, we are getting into semantics as I have no idea what you may mean by a 'whole lot'.

For the record do you think it had any bearing in Janos and the other conspirator's decision?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

His vows are his orders and he disobeyed them, has he not?

Well I suppose it depends on what exactly you are talking about. He tried to desert but came back. I don't consider this breaking a vow & neither did Mormont apparently. He slept with Ygritte but that it isn't in his vows that he will not sleep with anyone - only that he will father no children, take no wife. He didn't father a child or take a wife so I don't think he broke any vows here either. 

I'm aware the details of these can be argued but when you get down & dirty about it he hasn't broken any vows prior to becoming LC. At any rate I think bending a vow is different than refusing a direct order from your LC. While Mormont did not punish him for running off & coming back he surely would have if, for instance, when Mormont made Jon a steward instead of a Ranger Jon had called Mormont names & told him he could shove his steward up his arse, he most certainly would have been punished. 

Even if, for arguments sake, we agree he disobeyed an order & was not punished by death, I don't think that shows us what is "normally" done in this circumstance, only what was done in that circumstance. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well it becomes pretty apparent that Slynt and Bowen, at the very least, did not think that his punishment would be death. It comes without warning and when Slynt is aware of the punishment he is contrite.

But we have a fair idea of what the normal punishment would be from Jon's own thoughts

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - "

-  and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt.

-  and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook.

That is Jon's initial thoughts on what Slynt warranted it. But Jon can't ignore both the past

But he isn't contrite when he becomes aware of the punishment. When Jon gives the order to hang him:

Dolorous Edd took hold of Slynt by one arm, Iron Emmett by the other. Together they hauled him from the bench. "No," Lord Janos protested, flecks of porridge spraying from his lips. "No, unhand me. He's just a boy, a bastard. His father was a traitor. The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his … Let go of me! You will rue the day you laid hands on Janos Slynt. I have friends in King's Landing. I warn you—" He was still protesting as they half-marched, half-dragged him up the steps.

"If the boy thinks that he can frighten me, he is mistaken," they heard Lord Janos said. "He would not dare to hang me. Janos Slynt has friends, important friends, you'll see …" The wind whipped away the rest of his words.

Even Janos knows hanging means death. Yet, still he is disobedient & vulgar. Not the slightest bit remorseful. 

It isn't until his head is on a block with a sword above it & he is asked for his last words that he shows the slightest bit of remorse.

Also, Jon gives the reasons he doesn't do either of the other two punishments. 

and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

 

and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

 

So, while Jon certainly has reason to have negative feelings toward Janos (& does have those feelings) I maintain he still tried to give him a chance & was beheaded, not for anything he had done previously, but for this act of insubordination on the wall. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Twice. He refused it twice.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Two times. It undermines your argument when you need to exaggerate the amount of times he refused. I don't think you care how many times he said no, whether it was 10, 2 or even once there is no number where you would change your mind, so I'm not sure why you are saying 'many' and 'multiple' as all it looks like is that you are trying to convince others, not familiar with the text, that it was far more times than it actually was.

"Lord Janos." Jon sheathed his sword. "I am giving you command of Greyguard"...

Slynt's face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. "Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily. I was charged with the defense of King's Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes. Keep your ruin, bastard."

 

"You mistake me, my lord," Jon said. "That was a command, not an offer.... be ready to depart at first light on the morrow."

"No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die..." "Give your ruin to one of the blind fools who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!"

"You will." He could only hope that a night's sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses.

 

"Lord Janos," Jon said, "I will give you one last chance. Put down that spoon and get to the stables. I have had your horse saddled and bridled. It is a long, hard road to Greyguard."

 

"Then you had best be on your way, boy" Slynt laughed, dribbling porridge down his chest. 

"You are refusing to obey my order?"

"You can stick your order up your bastard's arse," Said Slynt, his jowls quivering.

 

I count 4 refusals here if you count each separate time he is asked as only one refusal. Sometimes he refuses several times in one paragraph. 4 is multiple no? 

I'm not trying to be deceitful or convince anyone that it was far more often than it was. My point was that he was given ample opportunity, IMO, to retract his refusals & agree to obey. 

To a certain degree I don't care how many times he refused. For instance, if he refused 2 times or 10 times he was still given ample opportunity to retract his refusal in light of the fact that he was given a whole night to think on it. It would make a difference to me if Jon had beheaded him during his initial conversation with him directly upon Janos first refusal though, as I would feel like Jon took off his head not truly knowing if Janos would go or not. He was saying he wouldn't go but he was heated & it wasn't time to actually go yet. At that point he had only said he wasn't going. He could scream all day he isn't going, but if he then gets on his horse & goes there isn't really anything to punish. 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Some had chosen Jon to be their lord commander. Others had cast their stones for Bowen Marsh, Ser Denys Mal-lister, Cotter Pyke ... and some for Janos Slynt. Hundreds of them, as I recall. Jon wondered how many of those men were in the cellar right now. For a moment the world balanced on a sword's edge.

What do you think the author is trying to convey when he says the world was balanced on a sword's edge? Does it read to you that everyone was fine with Jon's decision?

Again, I have a feeling you are arguing in bad faith as I think you already knew beforehand that more than just Bowen was shocked by Jon's decision. I don't think your mind will be changed whether it was just Bowen and Thorne, a dozen men or around half of the Watch members in the Hall that were shocked with Jon's decision.

I think the author is trying to tell us that Jon is very well aware that there are those who might oppose him & not agree with this decision. My point was that if beheading was an outrageous punishment for the crime Janos committed you would think we would hear that contention. We don't. It's definitely not out of the realm of possibility that there were those that disagreed with Jon's decision, in fact I think it's out of the realm of possibility that there weren't any who disagreed with his decision. But disagreeing with Janos being beheaded & believing or knowing that beheading is not a suitable punishment for insubordination are two different things. 

We don't have the word of another man that is shocked by Jon's decision. I'm sure there were some but we don't have a large outcry upon Jon beheading Janos. 

I'm not arguing in bad faith, I'm just trying to explain to you my point of view. No, my mind probably wouldn't be changed in regards to whether or not Jon was right in to behead Janos no matter how many people were shocked about it, but I would agree that it was a somewhat unheard of punishment for this crime if a dozen men or half the watch were appalled with what Jon had done. 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, was not trying to be rude, but I genuinely think you are aware of both of these points. It does nothing for your overall argument, which is perfectly legitimate, in portraying them differently to the book.

I'm not portraying anything different to the book though. I certainly add in my own thoughts & feelings & interpret some things different than you but I never purposefully argue something I know not to be true in the books. I have misremembered things, definitely. But the two points you are using here: 1. I found 4 refusals & I said many refusals so either you were counting one day as one refusal & the next day as one refusal or possibly you misremembered. 2. I think was a miscommunication because I wasn't arguing that there weren't any people on the wall who would disagree with Jon's punishment but that if beheading was an outrageous punishment for insubordination we would have heard it. 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There clearly was. By Jon's own reckoning.

Jon feeling as if the world was balanced on the edge of a sword, being aware that some will disagree with his decision doesn't tell us how many people disagreed with him. You use the word "contingent" = group when it was only Bowen's voice we heard, I don't think you are arguing in bad faith, I think you meant something different than what I meant. 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How so?

First of all Jon had to do more stuff that they disagreed with, and then were unable to tell him 'no' and then have Jon be in a position to be vulnerable to an assassination. Jon had proved himself unwilling to listen to Watch members disobey orders and when he went too far in his orders they killed him.

Right, I agree. Jon had to do more things they disagreed with before they decided they needed to kill him. If it were the decision to behead Janos alone that brought them to this they wouldn't need him to do other things. 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Okay, we are getting into semantics as I have no idea what you may mean by a 'whole lot'.

For the record do you think it had any bearing in Janos and the other conspirator's decision?

 

Right, sorry about that 'whole lot' isn't very specific. My meaning is that the act of beheading Janos alone would not have, IMO, led to an assassination on Jon. It was another drop in a bucket. It took other instances before Bowen decided he had no choice but to kill Jon. 

I think Janos beheading probably did have something to do with the conspirators decision in that without it there may not have been enough to set them over the edge - it's a possibility. There may have still been enough but I don't think beheading Janos was the deciding factor or the one that weighed the most. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The questions, the only real questions (1) was it justice to execute Janos Slynt? (2) is Jon fit to command?  To me, it was not justice.  It cannot be justice because Jon Snow showed favoritism towards Mance Rayder and didn't execute the man.  Jon was already anticipating killing Slynt, hell, downright salivating.  He was manipulating Janos and baiting the man to step out of line.  Jon was not fit to command.  This is one of the poor decisions that eventually led to Jon committing treason.  It goes back to his emotional attachment to the Starks.  Mance had done enough to earn a dozen executions but he got a pass because he wasn't the direct enemy of the Starks and Jon needed him to get Arya out of Winterfell. Janos had done comparatively minor offense got executed because he was the enemy of Jon's father.  Jon was not the right person for command.  He mishandled and misused the authority of his position. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, The Coonster said:

The questions, the only real questions (1) was it justice to execute Janos Slynt? (2) is Jon fit to command?  To me, it was not justice.  It cannot be justice because Jon Snow showed favoritism towards Mance Rayder and didn't execute the man.  Jon was already anticipating killing Slynt, hell, downright salivating.  He was manipulating Janos and baiting the man to step out of line.  Jon was not fit to command.  This is one of the poor decisions that eventually led to Jon committing treason.  It goes back to his emotional attachment to the Starks.  Mance had done enough to earn a dozen executions but he got a pass because he wasn't the direct enemy of the Starks and Jon needed him to get Arya out of Winterfell. Janos had done comparatively minor offense got executed because he was the enemy of Jon's father.  Jon was not the right person for command.  He mishandled and misused the authority of his position. 

Mance happened after this. Whether Jon should or shouldn't have executed Slynt shouldn't be dependent upon whether or not Mance lived. Two separate things. You can argue he should have executed Mance but this thread topic is Janos. I don't understand why Janos's execution would be dependent on Mance's execution. 

Also, he may have fantasized about killing Janos but he didn't kill him until he had a reason that directly related to the watch. He didn't bait him? How so? If anything Janos baited Jon. 

Jon gives his reasons for executing Janos, in his own thoughts. I don't understand why people want to make up other reasons when they are very clearly given to us. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/25/2019 at 9:36 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh, I agree. Theon is a marvelous character & I can't wait to see what is in store for him but 

  Reveal hidden contents

It's odd I know but when reading his chapter in tWoW & he is hanging from chains in Stannis's tent I feel so bad for him! I know being chained up is minor in comparison to what he has been through but that whole chapter I just think - FFS put him out of his misery! It's heart wrenching.

 

For sure, being a victim of torture doesn't negate the pain hes currently in. I mean, my arms hurt just thinking about that.

Stannis wants him dead, I think now that Theon ratted on Karstark, can't imagine what else Theon could be useful for (in the eyes of Stannis) and Asha wants him dead too (for mercy). But what does Bran want? "Theon, Tree." "Tree, Theon"

Assuming of course that these birds are Brandon (I think its a safe assumption). Tree sounds like a lynching to me, so that's not great. But theres also this 

Quote

Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Yeesh. Give me a noose over that, right? But does Bran really want that? (The Broken, not Icy Eyes) It seems a tad... graphic, in fact Ill take R'hllors fire over that too. 

So I don't think that's what Bran has in mind for him, well, I hope not lol

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think Janos beheading probably did have something to do with the conspirators decision in that without it there may not have been enough to set them over the edge - it's a possibility. There may have still been enough but I don't think beheading Janos was the deciding factor or the one that weighed the most. 

What do you think weighed more? Because I didn't think the Wildling issue was that intense. The Bolton one sure, but shit hit the fan pretty quickly after the PW was read out loud

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think Janos beheading probably did have something to do with the conspirators decision in that without it there may not have been enough to set them over the edge - it's a possibility. There may have still been enough but I don't think beheading Janos was the deciding factor or the one that weighed the most. 

What do you think weighed more? Because I didn't think the Wildling issue was that intense. The Bolton one sure, but shit hit the fan pretty quickly after the PW was read out loud

(I copied this from my post above, complications with quotes and spoilers and whatever)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, The Coonster said:

The questions, the only real questions (1) was it justice to execute Janos Slynt? (2) is Jon fit to command?  To me, it was not justice.  It cannot be justice because Jon Snow showed favoritism towards Mance Rayder and didn't execute the man.  Jon was already anticipating killing Slynt, hell, downright salivating.  He was manipulating Janos and baiting the man to step out of line.  Jon was not fit to command.  This is one of the poor decisions that eventually led to Jon committing treason.  It goes back to his emotional attachment to the Starks.  Mance had done enough to earn a dozen executions but he got a pass because he wasn't the direct enemy of the Starks and Jon needed him to get Arya out of Winterfell. Janos had done comparatively minor offense got executed because he was the enemy of Jon's father.  Jon was not the right person for command.  He mishandled and misused the authority of his position. 

Mance was not Jon's prisoner.He was Stannis's prisoner.

Jon did not send Mance to get Arya out of Winterfell.Can you show me where it says he did?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, redriver said:

Can you show me where it says he did?

I can. There’s loads of fanfic stories out there where it happened like that. Also, some forget that head canon =/= canon. ;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mance Rayder didn't order Edd Tollett to go to Mole's Town and bring back the women.  Jon did.  Mance Rayder didn't order himself to go on this mission.  Jon did.  There is no need for the fancy disguise if all the mission was is to open the gates and make Arya welcome.  The mission called for the infiltration of Winterfell.  That is the reason for the bard disguise and all of the elaborate planning that went with it.  Jon remembered the story of Mance working his way into Winterfell and enjoying Robert's feast.  Jon knew Mance was the best person to get his sister out.  Jon didn't just sign off on the mission, he was part of it and it was done under his command.  Mance Rayder is a crow under the command of Jon Snow.  And Jon had both the authority and the duty to execute Mance Rayder. 

3 hours ago, redriver said:

Mance was not Jon's prisoner.He was Stannis's prisoner.

Jon did not send Mance to get Arya out of Winterfell.Can you show me where it says he did?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...