The Crown Season 3 & 4 [Spoilers]

[Zorral]

That was the decade or so that turned much of the public against the Windsors, while the public remained staunchly aligned with the at least its idea of Diana, which the press helped create so much.  (And which games it continues to play with the royals to this very day.).

OTOH, it isn't often that monarchs or other sorts of rulers make good parents.

It's far more the rule than the except that dynasties, whether from the Qin era of China, the Ottomans in Turkey, the Theodosius emperors or either western or eastern Roman empires,  Victoria and Alberts vast crop of progeny, really get along and love each other.  And as we see with Henry VII, VIctoria, etc., often the current ruler deeply resents the designated heir to the crown.  It is not to be shared. We saw that with Elizabeth last season too.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Mladen said:

In previous seasons, I always thought that even though the show was aiming for objective POV, the narrative was pn the Crown's side. Overall, it was if not positive, then at least humane portrayal of these people. This year

Great, someone's finished!

Spoiler

I don't know if I entirely agree that the depictions were THAT bad.  I liked Elizabeth more this year than I did last year.  Anne may have shown jealousy in her conversation with Liz in "Favourites," but I still love her character.  And who could blame her?!?  Margaret's tragedy has kind of been a given for awhile now.  With Philip, I think he was portrayed much more sympathetically than previous seasons.  I mean, obviously more than the first two seasons where he was basically the main villain, but even season 3. 

Diana's plight was gut-wrenching - especially that hug to Elizabeth! - but I thought the final scene with Philip was telling that we'll see a more..complex characterization of her next season.  Perhaps that's part of the reason they recast her.  One thing I'm a bit worried after that final scene with Philip/Diana is if they're gonna hint at the assassination conspiracy with him.  I really hope not, I thought that idea was incredibly stupid even when I was a teenager.  Who plans an assassination like that anyway?

One thing I loved about that final scene is Philip calling back - almost word for word - the conversation George VI had with Philip on Elizabeth being the job at the end of pilot.  I thought that was brilliant on Morgan's part.

 

[Zorral]

After dinner watched episodes 5 and 6 -- thought they both were brilliant in very different ways. 

Especially as soap opera!  I do love a good soap opera, but that is one in which the same damned things don't happen in every episodes.

During episode 5, "Fagan," I kept thinking about the incels  thread discussion on Miscellaneous.  On one side we hear Thatcher proclaiming everything the defenders of incels say created their situation -- unfair competition -- while so often proponents of the world view that successful people have to pick themselves up and do it themselves -- but it's unfair because so many don't have the means to do that -- and somehow again a woman is supposed to fix  it -- but by golly this time it is two women presented, one who make the sitch, and the other, the Queen, who should Do Something.  But of course #1) as we're told over and over the monarchy does nothing that is its strength.; #2) it is UK Number one coz it made ships of another small country move away from another very small place that the UK claims to own -- and the very people Fagan comes from are cheering their brains out, for the very Thatcher-caused mess that she's put all of them in their council housing by destroying the 'nation' in favor of bootstraps state.  And then in the following episode 6 -- Charlie all out of snoot because his wife accomplishes in Australia what their tour was supposed to do -- but it was Diana they LOVED, being what she was supposed to BE, wife and mom.  And he, well, he didn't get to the Australians like she did.  So the end of that -- except for Prince Harry, who presumably grew out that short approachement? I don't really know about this stuff.

 

[DMC]

34 minutes ago, Zorral said:

During episode 5, "Fagan,"

I quite enjoyed the Fagan episode as well.  A worthy addition to their seasonal episodes taking the focus off the palace intrigue - i.e. the 52 smog episode in Season 1, Lord Altrincham in Season 2, and Aberfan in Season 3.  I was bit surprised they completely ignored both Anne's attempted kidnapping and the 81 assassination attempt in New Zealand - especially the former which seems made for TV - but the Fagan episode made up for it.

[Mladen]

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Great, someone's finished!

  Hide contents

I don't know if I entirely agree that the depictions were THAT bad.  I liked Elizabeth more this year than I did last year.  Anne may have shown jealousy in her conversation with Liz in "Favourites," but I still love her character.  And who could blame her?!?  Margaret's tragedy has kind of been a given for awhile now.  With Philip, I think he was portrayed much more sympathetically than previous seasons.  I mean, obviously more than the first two seasons where he was basically the main villain, but even season 3. 

Diana's plight was gut-wrenching - especially that hug to Elizabeth! - but I thought the final scene with Philip was telling that we'll see a more..complex characterization of her next season.  Perhaps that's part of the reason they recast her.  One thing I'm a bit worried after that final scene with Philip/Diana is if they're gonna hint at the assassination conspiracy with him.  I really hope not, I thought that idea was incredibly stupid even when I was a teenager.  Who plans an assassination like that anyway?

One thing I loved about that final scene is Philip calling back - almost word for word - the conversation George VI had with Philip on Elizabeth being the job at the end of pilot.  I thought that was brilliant on Morgan's part.

 

Spoiler

Well, most of that comes from depiction of their relationship with Diana. But then again, most royal correspondents have been telling us that Queen learned her mistake and vowed not to repeat it with Kate and Megan (which really puts in perspective how she treated Diana and hos she treated the other two). The sense of Diana's loneliness and pain and the inability of anyone in that family to offer a guiding hand is borderline unforgivable. When Diana ambushed the Queen and got response that "she has to feed the dogs", when we see entire season of this poor 20-something girl trying to connect, trying to be what they want and need her to be is simply as you said, gut-wrenching.

I do like the recast. Elizabeth Debicki is amazing actress and I think she could do more confident Diana perfectly.

As for Phillip and Diana, we see two totally different scenarios. The difference between them was not just character-wise, but more importantly, whom they married. We know Elizabeth fought for Phillip, we know how loyal and devoted she was to him. Elizabeth respected Phillip in ways Charles never did Diana, which is why it was a complete disaster from the first moment. 

Well, Peter Morgan is the same man who brought us "The Queen" with Helen Mirren, detailing the week after Diana's death. I doubt he would go conspiracy route. 

It is incredibly sad to just see how she was perfect. How everyone loved and adored her (except for Charles) and how it all hit the fan. Margaret saying before the wedding "how many time this family can make the same mistake" was really the crux of this season.  

 

6 hours ago, DMC said:

I quite enjoyed the Fagan episode as well.  A worthy addition to their seasonal episodes taking the focus off the palace intrigue - i.e. the 52 smog episode in Season 1, Lord Altrincham in Season 2, and Aberfan in Season 3.  I was bit surprised they completely ignored both Anne's attempted kidnapping and the 81 assassination attempt in New Zealand - especially the former which seems made for TV - but the Fagan episode made up for it.

Yeah, Fagan episode was much better than IRA assassination of Dickie in terms of understanding the complexity of the motivation behind it. 

As for Lord Altrincham...

Spoiler

I love how he got mentioned in that episode when they discussed talking to people and being closer to them.

 

[Cas Stark]

I liked it much better than season 3, but not as much as the first two seasons.  The writing seemed not only too on the nose, but overall not nearly as good.  I never got a sense of how or why Margaret Thatcher was a success in the first place, GA played her like a frail, but mean and capricious old woman.  She may have been mean and even capricious but she was still UK first female PM and there is no sense of why or how it happened based on GA version of Thatcher, who looks so weak that a walk around the room tires her out.  Still dislike Coleman as QEII, Claire Foy gave us a queen who was all too aware of her limitations, not brilliant, not beautiful, not even very well educated, but intent on doing her best, and you could always 'see' the struggle to keep herself a blank.  Coleman is more of a plain blank who ranges from a dotty aunt to deeply stupid to a cunning politician, but you never sense any personal struggles there and the through line of 'duty' that Foy gaves us doesn't exist in Coleman's queen.  I do like HBC as Margaret and wish she had been given more to do.  

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, Mladen said:

Elizabeth respected Phillip in ways Charles never did Diana

  Which is typical of someone who desperately thinks s/he can have both -- the marriage and marriage partner and the always yearned for Other.  That Camilla did that luncheon with Diana, that bracelet, etc -- even before she and Charles were married, are humiliations and cruelties the betrayed partner can hardly ever get over.  Even if the betrayed partner is able to move on, s/he doesn't forget.  Any fresh insult, intended or not, recalls that depth of humiliation and disregard.  And that's where romantic tragedy takes place: on that ground where the person perpetrating the hurt doesn't even see what is happening as deeply hurtful -- because s/he doesn't want to see it, for that would force a decision, a choice, and that, above all, is what the perpetrator doesn't want.  Especially a big boy who hasn't been able to grow up because his mother is Queen, and he is heir, and he can never be out of her shadow until she's gone.  And she will never be gone, any more than Victoria was ever gone, until way, way, way too late for Edward to change his character and behavior.

BTW -- they've done a stunning job with the pop culture music of the these years.  Scoring "Fagan" was a particularly outstanding episode for that, though they are all scored very smart.

I suppose this season doesn't go to 1985 and the U.S. visit, and that stunning blue velvet dress she wore at a White House ball?  That is the Diana I always remember, dancing with stars in her eyes, never out shown by the surrounding stars, as she dances with John Travolta, who in that year was the hottest Hollywood thing.  That night Nancy Reagan must have eaten and choked on her own shriveled raisin that she tried to pass off as a heart.    Thatcher and Reagan -- what a pair! who ultimately brought us to the pass we're currently in. 

[Heartofice]

Another thing about Anderson’s Thatcher, is that she’s seemingly playing the ‘end of her reign’ Thatcher , rather than the younger version. Some very strange decisions there.

There was a documentary on Thatcher on tv last night, and you realise how much of her speech and mannerisms was almost put on. Sure she always had that accent, but it was her PR guru who got her to work on slowing and deepening her speech.

On top of that she was generally far more normal in her manner in most circumstances than Anderson is making out. 
 

 

[DMC]

9 hours ago, Mladen said:

As for Lord Altrincham...

Alright I'm gonna stop using spoiler tags.  It seems everybody responding has either seen the whole season or doesn't mind.  If anybody objects speak up and I'll edit.  Anyway, yeah I really liked that reference too.  Her mentioning that it's been 25 years since then was a nice touch as well.

On Philip/Diana, what I liked about how it called back to the pilot is Philip is emphasizing Elizabeth is the job for all of them - and then pointing out that the rest of the family are all outsiders as they cut to each character in their own private suffering.  Obviously Charles is a much worse partner compared to Elizabeth, but Philip essentially admits as much when he tells her (paraphrasing) "if it makes you feel better we all think he's crazy."  His "threat" is if Diana damages the crown through a public and acrimonious divorce or separation - essentially he's saying do what you want as long as you maintain discretion, but you have to stay married to the fucktard for the preservation of the monarchy.  That may be incredibly fucked up (obviously it is), but it's certainly the ethos that's been articulated within the family throughout the entire series.

I agree Debicki is great casting and seems better equipped to portray a more mature, assertive, and flawed (or at least not entirely sympathetic) Diana.  I just still think it sucks for Corrin she only got one season.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Claire Foy gave us a queen who was all too aware of her limitations, not brilliant, not beautiful, not even very well educated,

While I get your point, I'd definitely say Claire Foy is beautiful!  On Thatcher's portrayal I'm decidedly of two minds.  On the one hand, as I said earlier I definitely agree the emphasis on her mistakes/failures is completely ridiculous historically and demonstrates this season had a more partisan bent than any of the previous offerings - by far.  The fact the entire season seemed to focus on her in perilous conditions is historically ludicrous - she's the longest serving prime minister of the 20th and 21st centuries and the most successful British politician of Elizabeth's reign.

On the other hand, focusing on her deficiencies help highlight Elizabeth's positive qualities in comparison, which is definitely more important for the show itself.  And it's not like she's the first prime minister they've treated horribly.  Both Anthony Eden and Harold MacMillan are portrayed as feckless morons which obviously was absurd but I shrugged those off as well.

Either way, the portrayal did sap her sendoff in the finale with Elizabeth, which should have been a more touching moment - even if I personally loathe Thatcher and all she stands for.

26 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I suppose this season doesn't go to 1985 and the U.S. visit, and that stunning blue velvet dress she wore at a White House ball?

They skipped over it.  I suppose after casting Michael C. Hall (who, to be clear, I love as an actor overall) as JFK they realized they entirely sucked at casting historically famous Americans.  OTOH, they did do a great job with LBJ.

[Cas Stark]

It does suck for Corrin, and there is really no need for the recasting other than that's the way they want to do things.  I would prefer to see the same actress portray Diana all the way through, it isn't as if we're talking that long of a time, she only goes from 19 to 36. 

[Zorral]

That contentious voice:

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-crown-season-4-margaret-thatcher-real-history-gillian-anderson-accuracy.html#_ga=2.101343301.590984848.1605728728-636055373.1605728728

 

Quote

First things first: Did she really talk like that?
Gillian Anderson’s over-the-top accent work in The Crown is probably the most contentious element of her performance; as my friends Joe Reid and Chris Feil say, the voice is the choice. To me, she hasn’t quite gotten it. In the collection of video clips below, you can hear how the real Thatcher had a lightness to her voice, a soft musical lilt, which Anderson’s version lacks. (This lightness was not natural; she adopted it at the suggestion of her image consultant.) However, I’ve noticed that those who lived through the Thatcher era are more convinced of its accuracy. Could it be that Anderson’s heavier, more ominous intonation is giving us not the way Thatcher actually spoke, but the way her voice was perceived by those who hated her?

 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

she only goes from 19 to 36.

Yeah the recasting is particularly glaring in comparison.  Seasons 1 and 2 go from 1947 to 1964, or 17 years, while seasons 3 and 4 go from 1964 to 1990 - everybody else got 26 years!

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Could it be that Anderson’s heavier, more ominous intonation is giving us not the way Thatcher actually spoke, but the way her voice was perceived by those who hated her?

Heh, sounds like a good theory to me.

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

That contentious voice:

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-crown-season-4-margaret-thatcher-real-history-gillian-anderson-accuracy.html#_ga=2.101343301.590984848.1605728728-636055373.1605728728

 

 

I think there is something in that. At first I thought she had gone for an extremely accurate portrayal, but looking back at clips it really isn’t. It’s a caricature.

However it is closer to aging Thatcher than early Thatcher. I still don’t get what she is attempting to do with her face.

[Cas Stark]

24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think there is something in that. At first I thought she had gone for an extremely accurate portrayal, but looking back at clips it really isn’t. It’s a caricature.

However it is closer to aging Thatcher than early Thatcher. I still don’t get what she is attempting to do with her face.

She makes some very strange choices, if I didn't know better, I would think she was portraying a post stroke or some other medical calamity Thatcher.  

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Heh, sounds like a good theory to me.

That same article does a really good run-down on her power years and how and why she got there -- I'd forgotten that it had been said it wasn't so much labor lost as it wrote the longest suicide note in history.  They've never been able to pull it back together since.

The article also explains how she was finally ousted -- by her own, of course -- and that damned poll tax to be paid by the poorest people.  I remember friends from Britain talking about that some years later -- they'd been punks, of course -- and how much they still hated her for that.

Her way was HER WAY and nobody else's   Like the Queen she ruled alone.

[Martini Sigil]

There are so many takeaways... where to start?

First... they are just awful... Thatcher, Liz,  Chuck, the fucking lot of the them... abysmal humans, all.

... not one bad performance

Olivia Coleman is just fantastic... as good as there is. Her range is remarkable

Tobias Menzies was actually endearing and funny this season... For an entire season, Phillip was a likeable character

Gillian Anderson crushed it.

Emma Corrin is going to be a big star

[Zorral]

21 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

First... they are just awful... Thatcher, Liz,  Chuck, the fucking lot of the them... abysmal humans, all.

... not one bad performance

Olivia Coleman is just fantastic... as good as there is. Her range is remarkable

Tobias Menzies was actually endearing and funny this season... For an entire season, Phillip was a likeable character

Gillian Anderson crushed it.

  Though not at all necessarily with your prediction for Corrin.  Her face isn't strong enough.  That's the weird thing about Diana -- her face literally changed with motherhood (bulimia?) letting the bones show, and those bones were strong.

 

[Mladen]

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It does suck for Corrin, and there is really no need for the recasting other than that's the way they want to do things.  I would prefer to see the same actress portray Diana all the way through, it isn't as if we're talking that long of a time, she only goes from 19 to 36. 

Given the fact that Colman, Menzies and Bonham Carter are finishing, it seems natural that the younger cast would get recasted too.

1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

First... they are just awful... Thatcher, Liz,  Chuck, the fucking lot of the them... abysmal humans, all.

Oh, yes... Especially with regard to Diana... I hated them all. It was so insensitive, so selfish, so inhumane in the way they treated this girl. From Elizabeth and Phillip to Charles and yes, even, Camilla. 

And when Charles spoke about Diana hurting Camilla by being decent human being... I haven't had such strong desire to slap someone  ever since the era of Joffrey and Ramsay.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Mladen said:

And when Charles spoke about Diana hurting Camilla by being decent human being... I haven't had such strong desire to slap someone  ever since the era of Joffrey and Ramsay.

Yeah it would have been nice for Diana to ask exactly how she hurt Camilla?  Would have liked to see him try to explain that.  As for wanting to punch Charles, I feel like the casting call should've simply read "must have punchable face," and in that they got their man.

[Zorral]

Interview with Fagan.  He's not happy about how he's portrayed.  For one thing, he's a lot better looking than the actor.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/nov/17/the-crown-magic-mushrooms-and-the-truth-behind-michael-fagans-palace-break-in