"characters who are perfectly nice"

[Ygrain]

On 11/18/2019 at 5:37 PM, Ran said:

From a conversation with GRRM about it, he didn't actually expect such an unalloyed hatred of her because he tried to place all the context around it to shade it and make it more complicated. He didn't realize a lot of people just ignore all of it and saw red and basically refused to contextualize it.

The Jon thing always baffles me. Jon haters are coming at the story from an absurd direction unsupportable by the text or the author's intentions. Again, he was complicating Jon and his situation, not trying to turn him into a villain.

I think the hatred for both characters stems from the same - ignoring the context, and hindsight. "Catnapping" gets a lot of flak as stupid, even though at that point and with the information she had, it was a perfectly logical thing to do, and she absolutely couldn't have known about LF's scheming. "It should have been you" happens during her emotional breakdown and she is later feeling guilty about her treatment of Jon, but it gets all ignored.

- BTW, don't you happen to know if "it should have been you" may have been inspired by a similar exchange between Faramir and Denethor?

'Would that have availed to change your judgement?' said Denethor. 'You would still have done just so, I deem. I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.'

'So be it,' said Faramir.

'So be it!' cried Denethor. 'But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.'

'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

And while in retrospect we learn that Denethor had been breaking on the inside for quite some time, he is nowhere in the state similar to Catelyn's.

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you so much! I loved them from the start, particularly because they always felt so incredibly realistic to me and I was really surprised to learn, that other readers didn't share that sentiment 

You and me both - Cat was my most favourite character along with Ned (so GRRM has broken my heart twice already) and I began to sympathize with Sansa during her ordeal in KL as it made her grow out of her childish egoism (she was 11 when did those "terrible" things, FFS!)

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

20 hours ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

GRRM was probably referring to the undue negative reactions to Daenerys Targaryen.  

1. Catelyn
2. Sansa
3. Daenerys
4. Mellissandre

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't despise Robb for doing that, but it was a stupid move, he forgot what he fought his war for, and allowing Sansa to rot in the Red Keep is the catalyst for his downfall because Catelyn was desperate enough to free Jaime, and most likely Tywin would not have done the Red Wedding out of fear for Jaime's life. When a man loses sight of what he's fighting for, it leads to disaster; Robert Baratheon liked war because it gave him a purpose, and without a purpose, he self-destructed.

'Despise' is a hard word there, but I think it is what Cat gets from many people. When in fact the utter Stark failure is actually Robb Stark. He allowed himself to be made king, he allowed his uncle to send half his strength away, he trusted Theon the Turncloak, he rejected/made no meaningful peace overtures, had no clear plan what he wanted, married the wrong woman, and assumed a slight that no self-respecting Stark would ever suffer wouldn't really concern the Freys.

Catelyn plays a crucial role in Robb's campaign early in AGoT. She basically gives him the means to have his two great victories.

The point to exchange Jaime for Sansa would have been long before the Blackwater.

[Sea Dragon]

On November 17, 2019 at 12:09 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

George RR Martin: "The other, of course, interesting thing is the negative reactions that you get to some characters who, to my mind, don't necessarily deserve such a strong negative reaction, particularly characters who are themselves perfectly nice. But I think if they're a threat to one of the characters that the people have already decided is their favorite, I don't know, you get some interesting reactions." (x)

So who do you think he's talking about here? 

He is talking about Daenerys. Martin has said that Dany's coin landed on the good side yet people still try to say she is a mad queen. smh

[The Lord of the Crossing]

3 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

He is talking about Daenerys. Martin has said that Dany's coin landed on the good side yet people still try to say she is a mad queen. smh

And just about all of that fiction is coming from the Stark fan side. Dany takes the stage away from the Starks and they don't like that. I, for one, despise the Starks and would like them all to expire sometime in the next novel.  

[Nagini's Neville]

19 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

And just about all of that fiction is coming from the Stark fan side. Dany takes the stage away from the Starks and they don't like that. I, for one, despise the Starks and would like them all to expire sometime in the next novel.  

I always felt Dany was a very beloved character right from the start. I certainly really liked her. I mean, you must have a heart of stone, if you don't have sympathy for the thirteen year old girl, who has no home and no family, but a brother, who has abused her her whole life and is now selling her into marriage. Her first chapters were so incredibly hard for me to read

[Bowen Marsh]

On 11/19/2019 at 5:44 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

1. Catelyn
2. Sansa
3. Daenerys
4. Mellissandre

These women in particular.  I don't like Sansa but she admittedly gets a lot of unbalanced criticism.  Daenerys should be celebrated for her work against slavery and yet some people try to spin that story in a negative way.  Catelyn made a lot of bad decisions that hurt a lot of people but so did Jon Snow. Yet the two are treated by some fans very differently.

On 12/27/2019 at 9:45 PM, Sea Dragon said:

He is talking about Daenerys. Martin has said that Dany's coin landed on the good side yet people still try to say she is a mad queen. smh

agreed

 

[Angel Eyes]

Is it possible that GRRM underestimated how much some characters were disliked, ie Catelyn and Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

26 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Is it possible that GRRM underestimated how much some characters were disliked, ie Catelyn and Sansa?

I think GRRM doesn't think much about the readers and how they will perceive the characters, while he writes them. Otherwise he wouldn't have so many grey characters, that are either loved or hated. I think he has his own vision, "knows" his characters and will go for "his characterization" no matter what. 

I don't think he would have written Cat differently for example, if he had known how some readers were going to perceive her.

But since he has expressed displeasure about how Cat (and Sansa as being whiny) has been perceived it seems like it was a surprise for him. 

He has also expressed surprise about at the popularity of certain characters and called Tyrion a villain very early on, while a lot of readers  see him more as a hero type (or at least not a villain).

So GRRM is probably used to that, but I don't think, he really cares that much in the end. He writes the story he wants to write, even if readers have different interpretations then his own. I think he wants to create real human beings, who have a lot of different sides to them and like in real life supporters/friends and enemies among the readers.

[Angel Eyes]

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think GRRM doesn't think much about the readers and how they will perceive the characters, while he writes them. Otherwise he wouldn't have so many grey characters, that are either loved or hated. I think he has his own vision, "knows" his characters and will go for "his characterization" no matter what. 

I don't think he would have written Cat differently for example, if he had known how some readers were going to perceive her.

But since he has expressed displeasure about how Cat (and Sansa as being whiny) has been perceived it seems like it was a surprise for him. 

He has also expressed surprise about at the popularity of certain characters and called Tyrion a villain very early on, while a lot of readers  see him more as a hero type (or at least not a villain).

So GRRM is probably used to that, but I don't think, he really cares that much in the end. He writes the story he wants to write, even if readers have different interpretations then his own. I think he wants to create real human beings, who have a lot of different sides to them and like in real life supporters/friends and enemies among the readers.

Well, of course he has a right to write a character as he wishes.
 

But to a lot of readers, Sansa’s still the spoiled brat who couldn’t see a bad man if he was dancing in front of her and Catelyn’s the woman who said to her husband’s son’s face that he should have been pushed out a window, and started a war by accusing an innocent man on the word of an untrustworthy figure. To this day I wonder why she said that Jon should have been pushed and how she would have reacted to Jon being put in a similar situation as Bran.

[SeanF]

I think Catelyn's story is heart-breaking.  Relentless tragedy, followed by damnation.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, of course he has a right to write a character as he wishes.
 

But to a lot of readers, Sansa’s still the spoiled brat who couldn’t see a bad man if he was dancing in front of her and Catelyn’s the woman who said to her husband’s son’s face that he should have been pushed out a window, and started a war by accusing an innocent man on the word of an untrustworthy figure. To this day I wonder why she said that Jon should have been pushed and how she would have reacted to Jon being put in a similar situation as Bran.

Yeah, but I think those readers opinion are reflective of how ppl see real ppl in real life. Sometime people are just a bit superficial, they fail to see every single aspect and detail of a person. It has to do with your own limited life experience. And also honesty about your own character. A lot of ppl are unable to see the faults within themselves, they are dishonest about all their dark, self-centered thoughts and emotions, if they were truly able to recognize that within themselves (and we all have that) they would be more forgiving about that in certain characters and maybe also appreciate those characters because of their realism.

They are still a lot of ppl, who dislike Sansa for forgetting about Jeyne, when she has to leave the tournament or how she thinks Jeyne is acting like a child, when she can't stop crying or other "selfish" moments of her. I personally think this is just an absolutely honest portrayal of 11 year old thoughts and feelings and therefore I find it brilliant. Ppl, who criticse that or are upset about it, I always ask myself, were they truly never self centered or have they just forgotten or are unable to recognize those aspects of themselves. And we also love to put everything in boxes. We don't like to change our minds, that is uncomfortable. So there are a lot of ppl, who see the characters still the way they did in the beginning and the character would have to do something big and extreme for them to notice, that they changed or maybe aren't quite the way they perceived them to be. 

Imo ASOIAF are novels for ppl, who are a bit psychologically smart, who'll do the work and dig deeper. But i also think we are like in real life all entitled to our own opinions. 

I for example just don't like characters, who sexually assault, rape or torture others. Even if they are written realistically (there might be reasons why they turned out they way they did, cultural reasons), no matter how much good they'll do I'll never like them. I'll never like Theon f.e. even though getting to know the Greyjoys better I can definitely see how his upbringing played a big role. While I can forgive Cat, for how she treats Jon, I can't forgive Theon even though I understand both.

To understand Cat, I think you have to understand the situation, psychology and cultural background of medival women. Her words to Jon were not well-thought out. She said it in a moment of absolute desperation, pain, fear and grief. 

Have you ever said something absolutely despicable and hurtful to someone in a horrible fight f.e.? I feel a lot of people have.  It's that kind of situation, just more intense, I guess. 

I've written about Cat in an earlier post:

Also a lot of ppl can't help, but apply modern logic, when it comes to judging her. Which is weird, because that's mostly not done to Ned, when he demands his seven year old son must watch an execution or when he demands his wife must just accept, that he comes home with a baby from another woman (while she has just given birth herself), is not allowed to ask any questions or has any way to do something about it. Imo Cat could possibly project a lot of anger she has for Ned over this whole situation onto Jon, which is of course not fair. But I think it's subconscious. Because what is Cat to do? Her husband is by law allowed to do whatever he wants in that regard and she has to obey him. How would it benefit her, if she did hate him for it, this is just what men do, a lot have many more bastards- Cat knows that, and she is stuck with Ned anyway. So her subconscious mind knows, that hating Ned won't help her, won't change anything, because Ned has the authority over her. It would just make her being stuck with someone she resents. But that doesn't make the pain go away, so it's projected onto Jon.

And I feel like ppl always have extremely high expectations of mothers. Nothing makes ppl quite as angry and emotional as a bad mother. In my language there is an own expression for a bad mother "Rabenmutter"("raven's mother" directly translated into english, would have been funny, if it meant crow's mother) , while there isn't an equivalent for a bad father. 

 

Edit: 

A little bit more about Cat:

Cat as a mediaval woman doesn't have a lot of agency over her life. Basically none. She had to marry a man her father picked and now she has to obey this said man her whole life. For us readers the weight of this situation sometimes gets lost, since Ned seems to be (and mostly is) a good man. 

But if you put yourself in Cat's shoes, if we saw her as a modern woman.

Just imagine, you are pregnant, you have to wait a full year for your husband- while you are pregnant- for a modern woman that already would be a no-go. Then you finally give birth, you have a healthy baby, you husband comes home with another baby, from another woman. He orders you to just accept it and you are not allow to ask any questions ever. This must feel like such a monumental betrayal. A modern woman in western society would leave her husband of course right away. But Cat can't. She is not allowed to ever leave. She is in a way not even allowed to really be angry about what Ned did to her or be hurt. Because he doesn't allow it to be a topic ( "never ask me about Jon"), he doesn't have to explain himself, so they can never work through it and Cat can never heal from it, but also because she knows this is the way things are in her world. So she has to suck it up, but the pain and anger doesn't go away and she unable to suppress it towards Jon. And in a moment of absolute desperation and grief all those build up emotions break out of her, when she tells Jon "it should have been you". But that doesn't mean she wished this whole time Jon would die. Did she want him to rather die than one of her own children. Sure. But GRRM has said himself Cat didn't abuse or mistreat Jon in anyway (expect for that sentence), she just didn't manage to be a mother for him.

Then we also need to remember, that this just wasn't the time of patchwork families and "blood doesn't matter as long as I raised you and always saw you as my child"- if that were the case wives and children weren't in danger of being killed, when husband found out the children weren't theirs.

Nothing is more important than blood in this world. 

From a society standpoint it is also not common and extremely disrespectful to the wife to raise your bastard under the same roof as your legitimate children. It is like a slap in the face to the wife for everyone to see.

The most important aspect is than her children are in the end all a medieval woman has. With so little agency and power over her own life she can at least have a little bit of power through her children. They are after all basically the whole purpose of her existence. This is the one important job she must fulfill in her life. Bear those sons. And a bastard son, that gets to live at WF and is treated like a son by Ned, is a threat to the claim of her children.

Still not fair to Jon of course.