Slayer of Lies triad; another look

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/28/2019 at 9:37 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think GRRM introduced Jon Snow switching Mance Rayder's son with Gilly's for the narrative purpose of Aegon being switched for the tanner's son. It is feasible, it can be done. And it's something that Jon does at the risk of his own life. 

 

I think it does for these characters. And we have instances in which Varys does try to save children. Gendry is nothing to him, but he sends him away to save his life. And he probably have done the same with Barra, he just didn't think that Cersei would be cruel enough to have a baby murdered, but he should have known better since Tywin did not have a problem ordering the murders of Rhaegar's children.

When Varys asks for 50 more little birds, he tells Illyrio to treat them gently, which is such a stupid thing to say when we know those children are going to be mutilated, that some of them will not even survive having their tongues removed. 

I don't think Varys is as malicious as Littlefinger for instance, or nearly as cruel as some of the other characters. But I very much think that the ends justifies the means for him. I also think we have to look at his actions removed from this whole Blackfyre speculation, which I find tends to cloud everything about him.

Or is it possible that The Ned might have bargained for Gendry's life? In Eddard XV, Game 58, no doubt after counseling Cersei, Varys visits Eddard in the black cells, and he brokers an agreement, to be ratified soon after “off-screen” by Cersei, that could end the nascent Stark-Lannister war. To force Eddard’s acquiescence, Cersei threatened to execute Sansa. Eddard agreed to confess to treason and to support Joffrey’s right to rule. In exchange for Eddard’s acquiescence, his daughter Sansa would remain in King’s Landing, but be treated gently. Rather than losing his head, Eddard was to join the Night’s Watch. Now, recall that Eddard thought of Gendry when he promised Robert to protect his children, and we can later surmise that Cersei agreed to send Gendry off with Eddard, but reneged after her son ordered Eddard’s death.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 hours ago, Crona said:

Could tell me in your scenario of the reason Varys chose to kill Pycelle the way he did? Rather than using the crossbow, he used the blunt side to kill him? Also why did Varys have a bunch of kids stab Kevan in the end?

Pycelle was seated at and slumped over the table, and Varys must have snuck in the room to whack him, so I would presume the secret entrance was behind the table, or Varys was hiding in a corner behind the table, and then thumped him from behind. The mutilated children that Varys cares for are his minions, and that scene capped the chapter's creepiness. 

[Crona]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Pycelle was seated at and slumped over the table, and Varys must have snuck in the room to whack him, so I would presume the secret entrance was behind the table, or Varys was hiding in a corner behind the table, and then thumped him from behind. The mutilated children that Varys cares for are his minions, and that scene capped the chapter's creepiness. 

I think we had read the passage a bit differently. For me the brutal killings of Pycelle and Kevan were very personal and filled with rage. Varys had pre planned and chose to use a crossbow and snuck into Pycelle’s room. The safer more calculated option was to use the crossbow quarrel but instead opted to use the blunt side. Then with Kevan decides to shoot him to frame Tyrion then opts to have him stabbed multiple times when he could have shot him again. So, he chose a more violent route to kill them. What would be the reason? Well, Rhaenys died by multiple stab wounds and Aegon was killed by blunt force trauma. And the deaths of these kids were caused by Pycelle advocating for opening the doors (against Varys’ wishes) and having Lannisters sack the city. To me when he references “the children” he is speaking of Aegon and Rhaenys. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

I think we had read the passage a bit differently. For me the brutal killings of Pycelle and Kevan were very personal and filled with rage. Varys had pre planned and chose to use a crossbow and snuck into Pycelle’s room. The safer more calculated option was to use the crossbow quarrel but instead opted to use the blunt side. Then with Kevan decides to shoot him to frame Tyrion then opts to have him stabbed multiple times when he could have shot him again. So, he chose a more violent route to kill them. What would be the reason? Well, Rhaenys died by multiple stab wounds and Aegon was killed by blunt force trauma. And the deaths of these kids were caused by Pycelle advocating for opening the doors (against Varys’ wishes) and having Lannisters sack the city. To me when he references “the children” he is speaking of Aegon and Rhaenys. 

This is pretty good. I never connected him bashing Pycelle's head in and Kevan's multiple stabbings to Aegon (or the baby from Pisswater Bend) and Rhaenys.

Pycelle counseled Aerys to open the gates and Kevan was there at the Sack.

[Crona]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is pretty good. I never connected him bashing Pycelle's head in and Kevan's multiple stabbings to Aegon (or the baby from Pisswater Bend) and Rhaenys.

Pycelle counseled Aerys to open the gates and Kevan was there at the Sack.

Yea their deaths were really odd to me and it took me a while to see the connection. But, if you read the chapters with the idea that Varys is defending Rhaenys and Aegon solely then a lot of his actions makes sense.

Yup, Kevan was there during the sack. He recalled seeing Aegon’s body 

This quote was used by another poster but still fits the narrative for his motive and how he felt about the sack:

"Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him. Rhaenys liked to pretend he was the true Balerion, the Black Dread of old, but I imagine the Lannisters taught her the difference between a kitten and a dragon quick enough, the day they broke down her door."

[Alexis-something-Rose]

So I've fallen down the ironborn rabbit hole over the past two days and the more I look into this, the more parallels I'm finding between what Dany has done to hatch dragons and what Euron is up to. And not just that, but there's some Azor Ahai symbolism around the Drowned God as well. 

Suffice to say, I've had a complete change of heart and I think that Euron is very much the "stone beast" or is associated to it in some shape or form. 

What's interesting is that Sam who has seen Stannis's sword, heard Mel's claims, has had discussion with Maester Aemon about Rhaegar believing that Aegon was the PtwP, could be on hand to witness what Euron does.

Anyway, I've sort of laid some things down in the I never noticed that thread, and linked it below.

 

[Frey family reunion]

13 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So I've fallen down the ironborn rabbit hole over the past two days and the more I look into this, the more parallels I'm finding between what Dany has done to hatch dragons and what Euron is up to. And not just that, but there's some Azor Ahai symbolism around the Drowned God as well. 

Suffice to say, I've had a complete change of heart and I think that Euron is very much the "stone beast" or is associated to it in some shape or form. 

What's interesting is that Sam who has seen Stannis's sword, heard Mel's claims, has had discussion with Maester Aemon about Rhaegar believing that Aegon was the PtwP, could be on hand to witness what Euron does.

Anyway, I've sort of laid some things down in the I never noticed that thread, and linked it below.

 

I've been of the opinion for a while that the "blue-eyed" king in the Undying vision doesn't necessarily just refer to one character.  After all, we've had a number of blue eyed kings in the story.  The trick is figuring out who their red swords are.

The most obvious answer to that part of the vision is Stannis.  Stannis is a blue eyed king, and arguably he may have already lost his shadow through the casting of Melisandre's magic.  And while he has a glamored sword, the visions shows that he is holding a red sword, which doesn't fit his "Lightbringer".  My guess is Stannis' true Red Sword is Melisandre.

But the vision just speaks of a "blue-eyed King" not a king with blue eyes.  So with that in mind, another blue-eyed king fits the bill, even though he has only one blue eye: Euron.  There is some discussion that Euron might be undead at this stage of the story, so perhaps that is why he would also not cast a shadow.  As for his "red sword" I think there is a clue that it might be Victarion.  Compare the vision of the blue-eyed king and the red sword with Victarion's emergence after Moqorro "healed" his hand:

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Quote

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck.  He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow.  As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand.

Another possible Blue-eyed king who cast no shadow could be Bran.  Bran was called the prince of Winterfell after his brother, declared himself king.  After Robb's death, wouldn't that make Bran a king now?  A king of winter.  Bran also now rests in a cave where the darkness gives him comfort and protection.  And a blue eyed king who sits in the dark is also a blue eyed king who casts no shadow, because you need light to cast a shadow.  So the only question is who is or will be Bran's red sword?  If Jon is resurrected in fire by Melisandre, than Jon could potentially fit the bill.  A more sinister possibility is the Red Comet if that makes a return.

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So I've fallen down the ironborn rabbit hole over the past two days and the more I look into this, the more parallels I'm finding between what Dany has done to hatch dragons and what Euron is up to. And not just that, but there's some Azor Ahai symbolism around the Drowned God as well. 

Suffice to say, I've had a complete change of heart and I think that Euron is very much the "stone beast" or is associated to it in some shape or form. 

What's interesting is that Sam who has seen Stannis's sword, heard Mel's claims, has had discussion with Maester Aemon about Rhaegar believing that Aegon was the PtwP, could be on hand to witness what Euron does.

Anyway, I've sort of laid some things down in the I never noticed that thread, and linked it below.

 

I support this interpretation.  I would also say that the new god Euron refers to here is Bran (born under-the-sea). Charnal pits are bone pits.

Spoiler

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel  pits.”  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The light dwindled again. Small as she was, the child-who-was-not-a-child moved quickly when she wanted. As Hodor thumped after her, something crunched beneath his feet. His halt was so sudden that Meera and Jojen almost slammed into his back.

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

So you have Dany reborn on the Dothraki Sea; Bran reborn Under-the-Sea and probably Euron reborn on the sea.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So you have Dany reborn on the Dothraki Sea; Bran reborn Under-the-Sea and probably Euron reborn on the sea.  

I think there's a much more interesting parallel going on with Bran that happened while he was still at Winterfell.

Jojen's greendream;

It is the sea that comes."
"The sea?"
"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well." (Bran V, ACoK 35)

Winterfell itself was drowned (so to speak) when Theon and his ironborn took it. 

As for Chayle he had to give someone to the Drowned God, his men expected it. "I bear you no ill will," he'd told the septon before they threw him down the well, "but you and your gods have no place here now." (Theon IV, ACoK 50)

Septon Chayle, like the priests that Euron has rounded up for his big sacrifice, or Dany doing the same with MMD who was a priestess, Theon sacrificed a man with holy blood to the Drowned God at Winterfell. 

Bran opened his third eye at Winterfell, below the ground, in the crypts, where he was hiding out. That's also when Summer sees the dragon above Winterfell. I think there's some math that can be done here. I can't say that I 100% understand it, but if getting a dragon requires all sort of shenanigans with holy blood and kingly blood and what have you, then it makes total sense that Summer would have seen a dragon, although it doesn't make all that much sense as to why Summerhall was such a disaster.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Bran opened his third eye at Winterfell, below the ground, in the crypts, where he was hiding out. That's also when Summer sees the dragon above Winterfell. I think there's some math that can be done here. I can't say that I 100% understand it, but if getting a dragon requires all sort of shenanigans with holy blood and kingly blood and what have you, then it makes total sense that Summer would have seen a dragon, although it doesn't make all that much sense as to why Summerhall was such a disaster.

The sea coming to Winterfell is an interesting comparison.  I'm not sure what the math is here in comparison to MMD's ritual or Euron attempting to do something similar with slightly different math.  I wonder if the shadow of the dragon over Winterfell has something to do with Bloodraven leaving the winterfell heart tree?

I still expect Bran to be a new born god when he reaches the Cave of Skulls and is wed to the tree.  It seems pretty clear to me that Euron knows about Bran and will eventually come for him.  I think Euron is making a mockery of Bran by hanging Pyatt Pree from the rafters minus his legs.  

[Finley McLeod]

On 11/29/2019 at 3:14 AM, Bowen 747 said:

The stone beast is Jon Snow, the "shadow."  A shadow birthed through magic.  Created by blocked light, by the Others. He will make himself king of the north. Dany will roast him for laying claim to what is not his.  Stannis is the blue eyed king with the red sword.  He was propped up as the Azor Ahai.  That will also be proven wrong and will end in his execution.  The mummer's dragon does not necessarily mean an actor is propping up the dragon.  It means the false dragon is the actor.  He is not the true heir to Westeros.  He will also get roasted for taking what is not his.  They will lay claim to Westeros, which is not theirs, and get themselves killed. 

I think the lies are Stannis, Aegon/Young Griff, and Jon Snow all pretending to be Azor Ahai. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 11/18/2019 at 2:41 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So in a nutshell, the mummer's dragon is a puppet. If the mummer wants the puppet to go left, it goes left. And if he wants it to go right, it goes right. The puppet is something a mummer can manipulate to do what it wants it to do. It doesn't make the dragon a fake, and as we find out from Jon Connington, Aegon is not nearly as biddable as Young Griff was. So the puppeteering (pretty sure it's not a word) will be more difficult moving forward, I think.

fAegon ignores his guardian's advice... because he's manipulated into it by Tyrion. And it took only one conversation.