Why Was Robb Such An Awful Diplomat?

[shadeofthemorning]

It seems like the thought process required to be a good war strategist is extremely similar to the thought process required to be a good politician/diplomat. If that’s the case, why was Robb such an awful politician? You would think that he would employ some of the techniques he used strategically in battle to the political playing field. I suppose you could make the argument that Robb was an aggressor in war, and being an aggressor in diplomacy doesn’t work the same way as being an aggressor on the battlefield does, but still it doesn’t explain how someone so tactically gifted would be so stupid as far as diplomacy goes, considering how similar war and politics tend to be. Does anybody have a good answer for this?

[The Sunland Lord]

He thought he can trust his people (Theon, Catelyn, Roose Bolton, Edmure) but he was wrong.

He really wronged the Freys, but even without it, his own people and relatives were eating his cause up bit by bit.

Further, Renly was a good choice for an ally. It's not his fault that Renly died.

His great fault lies in the fact that he accepted the crown. That was a huge obstacle. Otherwise an alliance with Stannis Baratheon would've been possible.

[Loose Bolt]

Robb had very bad cards. Or Tywin could call at arms as many men as Starks and Tullys together and many of his men were better armed and trained than Robb's men. Besides R could not really offer anything that another big players wanted and so his diplomacy failed. 

[Lollygag]

He was a 15/16 year old kid who'd never been outside the North. It's not fair to expect him or any of the other young characters to have the life-experience and judgement of someone much older.

He was raised in the North and it's a completely different culture where a completely different skill-set is needed to survive. That is, southern style politics ends up further down the priority scale when you're trying to not freeze and starve to death. Ned did a great job managing the North and Robb was positioned to do the same. The South is entirely different and they had no reason to want nor expect to need to learn how to manage the different culture.

AGOT Bran VI

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

And somehow after that the Greatjon became Robb's right hand, his staunchest champion, loudly telling all and sundry that the boy lord was a Stark after all, and they'd damn well better bend their knees if they didn't fancy having them chewed off.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times.

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

ADWD - The Sacrifice

The southerners looked a sorry lot, Asha thought—gaunt and hollow-cheeked, some pale and sick, others with red and wind-scoured faces. By contrast the northmen seemed hale and healthy, big ruddy men with beards as thick as bushes, clad in fur and iron. They might be cold and hungry too, but the marching had gone easier for them, with their garrons and their bear-paws.

 

[Arthur Peres]

Well, he wasn't. He just didn't have any real cards to play with.

Robb did try to reach Renly, but Renly died, Robb did try to reach Balon, but Balon was the one too stupid, and Robb try to reach Lysa but as we know she would never aid him thanks to Baelish.

Only Tyrion tried to solve the war through diplomacy, making the alliance with the Martells and Tyrells, all the other parties did not even tried. Renly already considered the Martells and even Stannis as part of his force but was compleatly ignored. Balon ignored the only potential ally that had a common goal with him and later tried to make one alliance with Tywin but was mocked, and Stannis that only demanded fealty without anything in return and when Cressen tried to sugest an alliance with Robb or Renly was ignored and even the Vale was discarted.

[The hairy bear]

4 hours ago, shadeofthemorning said:

If that’s the case, why was Robb such an awful politician?

I don't see why one would call him a bad politician, or a bad diplomat. Why do you claim that? Which diplomatic blunder do you accuse him of?

It seems to me that, with the obvious exception of marrying Jeyne Westerling (which is a one off thing, done under extraordinary circumstances and perfectly explained in the books) his moves in terms of politics/diplomacy were not bad.

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

His great fault lies in the fact that he accepted the crown. That was a huge obstacle. Otherwise an alliance with Stannis Baratheon would've been possible.

At which point? There's not much time between Renly's death and the Battle of the Blackwater: Penrose is given "a forthnight" to surrender and then is killed. After that, Stannis troops rush towards the Blackwater. And during all this time, Robb is on campaign in the Westerlands.

I think that the fact that Robb was proclaimed king is often overstated. It's not that huge a deal. In the history of Westeros there have been plenty of petty kings (Brackens, Masseys, Darklyns, Flints,... ), and many eventually submitted peacefully to another one. "King" is just a term for some lord that doesn't acknowledge any superior. The Starks had been kings for millennia, renounced to that title, reclaimed again, and if it had been politically convenient at any point they could revert to a lordly status.

In this context, attacking the Lannister base at the West was a great political decision. It helped both Renly and Stannis, it facilitated that the Baratheon brothers prevailed against the Lannisters, and it ensured that he remained uninvolved with the disputes between the two brothers.

 

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Which diplomatic blunder do you accuse him of?

Sending the wrong emissary to the Iron Isles despite warnings against his choice was definitely an error, though perhaps not as much of one as one might think at first blush, as the Greyjoys were already arming and gathering their ships before Theon was sent to them. Balon seemed likely to go to war without any concern for his sole surviving son. Still, it was something Robb shouldn't have done, perhaps accelerating Balon's plans and, of course, leading to the capture and ultimate razing of Winterfell.

Failing to secure the return of his sisters by trading Jaime for them was an error he acknowledged in ASoS, because Sansa would have been valuable as a potential bargaining chip with the Tyrells after Renly's death. 

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It seems to me that, with the obvious exception of marrying Jeyne Westerling (which is a one off thing, done under extraordinary circumstances and perfectly explained in the books)

This is all true, but it really has to be emphasized how absolutely enormous an error it was given the consequences.

I do think some might raise the Karstarks as something he mishandled, that he should have done something to punish Catelyn so as to assuage Karstark, but I think no matter what he did he was going to have the same thing happen. Rickard Karstark was too far gone not to kill those boys in "revenge", and then Robb had no other choice he could make.

 

[The Sunland Lord]

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

At which point? There's not much time between Renly's death and the Battle of the Blackwater: Penrose is given "a forthnight" to surrender and then is killed. After that, Stannis troops rush towards the Blackwater. And during all this time, Robb is on campaign in the Westerlands.

I think that the fact that Robb was proclaimed king is often overstated. It's not that huge a deal. In the history of Westeros there have been plenty of petty kings (Brackens, Masseys, Darklyns, Flints,... ), and many eventually submitted peacefully to another one. "King" is just a term for some lord that doesn't acknowledge any superior. The Starks had been kings for millennia, renounced to that title, reclaimed again, and if it had been politically convenient at any point they could revert to a lordly status.

In this context, attacking the Lannister base at the West was a great political decision. It helped both Renly and Stannis, it facilitated that the Baratheon brothers prevailed against the Lannisters, and it ensured that he remained uninvolved with the disputes between the two brothers.

 

At several points.

When Stannis Baratheon doesn't even consider him as a possible ally, even though Maester Cressen and Ser Davos suggest that "half a Kingdom is still better than none". 

Renly Baratheon would suffer only empty title of the King in the North. He still demanded tribute. I'm not sure how would this have ended; would have Robb accepted such conditions and set his pride aside?  

Robb needed allies, as powerful as the Tyrells. or the Baratheon brothers. He had his considerable army to offer them, which was welcomed by all, but not under any circumstances. No one would seriously allow his kingship, and he really didn't show any intent to put the crown down and be demoted to lordship again. 

 

[shadeofthemorning]

48 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see why one would call him a bad politician, or a bad diplomat. Why do you claim that? Which diplomatic blunder do you accuse him of?

Let’s see

 

There’s the most obvious one, beheading the Karstark.

Sending conniving, easily manipulated Theon as an emissary to his homeland.

Not moving on bargaining Jamie sooner rather than later.

Letting his mother call the shots and undermine him regularly, which not only screwed up a multitude of his plans, but also made him look like a chump in front of his bannermen.

The breaking of a pact, of course, which would have been egregious even if it hadn’t been a pact with the emotionally unstable Freys, because it soils his honor and his word.

He made quite a few diplomatic blunders. I’d say age and the isolation of the North is an excuse, but really the only excuse I can come up with is being raised by the father and mother he got stuck with. Any other man who had been groomed to be King or Lord or Warden or whatever wouldn’t have made his mistakes. Although, once again, he was screwed from birth, given how naive his father was and how ignorant his mother was.

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, shadeofthemorning said:

Letting his mother call the shots and undermine him regularly, which not only screwed up a multitude of his plans, but also made him look like a chump in front of his bannermen.

She did not do that, and he never had a "multitude" of plans.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Ran said:

She did not do that, and he never had a "multitude" of plans.

Indeed. In fact, I’d argue the opposite... if only Robb had listened to Cat’s advices. 

[The hairy bear]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

Sending the wrong emissary to the Iron Isles despite warnings against his choice was definitely an error, though perhaps not as much of one as one might think at first blush, as the Greyjoys were already arming and gathering their ships before Theon was sent to them. Balon seemed likely to go to war without any concern for his sole surviving son. Still, it was something Robb shouldn't have done, perhaps accelerating Balon's plans and, of course, leading to the capture and ultimate razing of Winterfell.

It was a mistake, but I'm not sure I'd call it a diplomatic mistake. As you say, Balon had made his mind to attack the North regardless. Could Robb had sent any other emissary with some option to convince Balon to attack the West instead? I don't think so.

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

Failing to secure the return of his sisters by trading Jaime for them was an error he acknowledged in ASoS, because Sansa would have been valuable as a potential bargaining chip with the Tyrells after Renly's death.

I don't think he really had a chance at that. How much time happened between Renly's death and Tywin closing the alliance with the Tyrells? 15 days, at most. All that while Robb was away at the Westerlands. It was not feasible.

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think no matter what he did he was going to have the same thing happen. Rickard Karstark was too far gone not to kill those boys in "revenge", and then Robb had no other choice he could make.

If Robb had traded Arya and Sansa for Jaime Lannister, how would Rickard Karstark react? What would be the blunder? Failing to secure the release of his two sisters that he could have used to gain alliances through marriages? Or alienating the Karstarks by releasing the man who killed Rickard's boys in a trade that the Lannister camp considered foolish. (Adam Marbrand: "He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.")

5 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

When Stannis Baratheon doesn't even consider him as a possible ally, even though Maester Cressen and Ser Davos suggest that "half a Kingdom is still better than none".

And Stannis is the one in the wrong. He doesn't listen to the counsel of wisest men such as Cressen and Davos and refuses to seek an alliance with Robb even though he proclaimed himself king before Stannis did, and goes as far as to belittle Eddard for his childish grievances towards his dead brother.

The one who fails at diplomacy here is Stannis, not the other way around.

5 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Renly Baratheon would suffer only empty title of the King in the North. He still demanded tribute. I'm not sure how would this have ended; would have Robb accepted such conditions and set his pride aside?   

I think he would have. Robb's main goal had never been to become king. If he managed to defend his honor, avenge his father and obtain retribution to the wrongs made by the Lannisters, I think he would be content. Even more if Renly even allowed him to keep calling himself king, even if it was an empty title.

36 minutes ago, shadeofthemorning said:

There’s the most obvious one, beheading the Karstark.

This has been discussed many times. Robb had no other realistic option. I'd recommend you to read on the many threads of the subject.

36 minutes ago, shadeofthemorning said:

Letting his mother call the shots and undermine him regularly, which not only screwed up a multitude of his plans, but also made him look like a chump in front of his bannermen.

This never happened. Also, for most of the time Robb was king they were not together (Robb was on campaign through the West, and Cat as emissary to Renly)

 

 

I'm not saying that Robb was without fault. I'm only saying that it's a little too much to call him "an awful diplomat/politician" as the OP suggests. He may not brilliant, but neither a complete failure. Most of the things that went wrong would have gone wrong regardless of who had been in charge. Assuming that Lisa would support his family, or that Balon would appreciate the gesture of goodwill of sending Theon home were certainly gambles, but I don't see them as intrinsically bad calls.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I do think some might raise the Karstarks as something he mishandled, that he should have done something to punish Catelyn so as to assuage Karstark, but I think no matter what he did he was going to have the same thing happen. Rickard Karstark was too far gone not to kill those boys in "revenge", and then Robb had no other choice he could make.

Every army has prisoners and angry lords that lost familly in the war but only robb had a karstark problem…
I think he failed in how/where he kept his prisoners and then he failed when he killed rickard. It doesn t matter if it was morally the right thing to do because politically it was an awfull decision that cost him the karstark men…

And in the end of the day his duty as king is to look out for his men. So don t you think his men would have prefered to have robb go against his principles but keep the karstarks fighting with them? And as long as he kept rickard in jail with a possible release based on how the karstarks behaved until the end of the war or if he simply sent him to the Wall robb might have kept the karstarks with him. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

It seems to me that, with the obvious exception of marrying Jeyne Westerling (which is a one off thing, done under extraordinary circumstances and perfectly explained in the books) his moves in terms of politics/diplomacy were not bad.

What politiccal/diplomatic moves are you talking about?

Sending theon to his father was an awfull decision. First he needed to have an agreement with balor and then he would give theon back as payment for the IB help. Chosing to send theon basically gave balor the power to act as he pleased. 

He never negotiated edmure's marriage to gain more men for the army.

He wasn t able to gain the help of powerful houses from the reach and Ned had a lot of friends there… He should have been able to persuade the royces to join him somehow...

I don t remember why sending his mother to negotiate a crucial alliance with renly was a good idea. She hasn t been south of the neck for 15 years? she has no idea of what motivates those people and she simply couldn t leave that place without some kind of agreement with either renly or stannis or the tyrells. At that point in time an aliance was crucial and cat's inexperience cost robb his war.

Him not telling edmure about his war plans was another bad action.

Having Jaime but not using him to negotiate anything was another bad move.

Overall it is dificult to find good decisions outsider of the field of battle.

[divica]

12 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It was a mistake, but I'm not sure I'd call it a diplomatic mistake. As you say, Balon had made his mind to attack the North regardless. Could Robb had sent any other emissary with some option to convince Balon to attack the West instead? I don't think so.

It was a huge political mistake. Theon is a hostage to ensure balor doesn t attack the mainland. So what is robb's decision? He sends his only bargaining ship to balor and expects balor to act as he wants… And to make things even worse he send balor someone that knows almost everything there is to know about the north… 

The fact that balor was preparing to attack the north is irrelevant. The way robb acted garanteed that balor could attack the north if he wanted and cost robb a person with a lot of information about how the IB act.

17 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think he really had a chance at that. How much time happened between Renly's death and Tywin closing the alliance with the Tyrells? 15 days, at most. All that while Robb was away at the Westerlands. It was not feasible.

He could have traded Jaime way before renly died. 

18 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

If Robb had traded Arya and Sansa for Jaime Lannister, how would Rickard Karstark react? What would be the blunder? Failing to secure the release of his two sisters that he could have used to gain alliances through marriages? Or alienating the Karstarks by releasing the man who killed Rickard's boys in a trade that the Lannister camp considered foolish. (Adam Marbrand: "He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.")

He would trade Jaime for his sisters and potentially gain thousands of men. Do you think rickard wouldn t be happy to have more men and be able to win the war? 

The decision to not trade Jaime for his sisters is another exemple of bad political decisions. At the time he didn t see that they could give him more men for his army through marriage...

20 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

And Stannis is the one in the wrong. He doesn't listen to the counsel of wisest men such as Cressen and Davos and refuses to seek an alliance with Robb even though he proclaimed himself king before Stannis did, and goes as far as to belittle Eddard for his childish grievances towards his dead brother.

The one who fails at diplomacy here is Stannis, not the other way around.

Debatable. Stannis sees himself as the king of the SEVEN kingdoms and from his pov considerst robb a traitor. He has no good reason to accept robb's Independence because stannis thins he is the rightful heir and therefore robb owes him his allegiance...

23 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

This has been discussed many times. Robb had no other realistic option. I'd recommend you to read on the many threads of the subject.

This isn t true. He could have sent him to the Wall or kept him prisoner to ensure the karstarks remained loyal. He decided to do what he thought was right even though it was an awfull political decision.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It seems to me that, with the obvious exception of marrying Jeyne Westerling (which is a one off thing, done under extraordinary circumstances and perfectly explained in the books) his moves in terms of politics/diplomacy were not bad.

Lately I've been wondering whether Robb's motivation for marrying Jeyne Westerling has anything to do with how he witnessed Jon being treated by Catelyn.

We know he wasn't in love with Jeyne Westerling at the time. He gave in to seeking comfort, realizing the morning after what he had done and what the potential consequence would be: in his mind Jeyne could end up carrying his child, and then he'd have to raise that child as a bastard with a Frey wife being suspicious of him. It's something he never explains to Catelyn, but that's hardly a reason he could have told his mother.

[divica]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Lately I've been wondering whether Robb's motivation for marrying Jeyne Westerling has anything to do with how he witnessed Jon being treated by Catelyn.

We know he wasn't in love with Jeyne Westerling at the time. He gave in to seeking comfort, realizing the morning after what he had done and what the potential consequence would be: in his mind Jeyne could end up carrying his child, and then he'd have to raise that child as a bastard with a Frey wife being suspicious of him. It's something he never explains to Catelyn, but that's hardly a reason he could have told his mother.

I think everybody knows about moon tea. And we have no proof if robb was adverse to having sex with whores...

It is a big jump to say he married because he was afraid that he might have fathered a bastard.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, divica said:

I think everybody knows about moon tea. And we have no proof if robb was adverse to having sex with whores...

It is a big jump to say he married because he was afraid that he might have fathered a bastard.

Jon's "mother" didn't use moon tea. Though either Jon's mother was a wench of the smallfolk as far as Robb knows, or he may have heard about Ashara Dayne and her suicide too (even if Catelyn never heard it mention anymore within her earshot).

Robb may not have been in love with Jeyne Westerling, but it seems she fell for him, and she isn't a whore, but a noblewoman (albeit upjumped). Bastards born to noblewomen is somewhat different than those born to a whore. The latter get no name. The first are usually acknowledged, and if he brought him home to Winterfell, would be a Snow. 

I don't think Robb particularly was afraid of fathering a bastard while he was at Winterfell and sleeping with prostitutes or washer women. But once he was "promised to one noblewoman" before setting out to war, and then ended up sleeping with another noblewoman, that's when he's much in the same situation as Ned Stark was in his mind, with just one big difference. Ned had already married Catelyn, before "fathering" a bastard son while on campaign. Robb hadn't yet married the Frey daughter. I think it not unlikely he did not also wanted to get himself in a similar situation as his father, being blamed by a Frey wife who would certainly be suspicious of hsi Snow bastard as the Snow would be born well before her children.

Anyway, I don't think it's that much of a coincidence that George wrote a scenario that is much alike the one Robb, Cat and Jon believe to have occurred during RR for Ned to bring back Jon Snow, except Robb was only promised and therefore in his mind believed he could make a better choice than his father was at liberty to make.

That said, it is a huge monumental mistake of Robb, especially given the fact that Jeyne's mother was indeed making sure that Jeyne wouldn't have any child by Robb, no matter how much they tried.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon's "mother" didn't use moon tea. Though either Jon's mother was a wench of the smallfolk as far as Robb knows, or he may have heard about Ashara Dayne and her suicide too (even if Catelyn never heard it mention anymore within her earshot).

Robb may not have been in love with Jeyne Westerling, but it seems she fell for him, and she isn't a whore, but a noblewoman (albeit upjumped). Bastards born to noblewomen is somewhat different than those born to a whore. The latter get no name. The first are usually acknowledged, and if he brought him home to Winterfell, would be a Snow. 

I don't think Robb particularly was afraid of fathering a bastard while he was at Winterfell and sleeping with prostitutes or washer women. But once he was "promised to one noblewoman" before setting out to war, and then ended up sleeping with another noblewoman, that's when he's much in the same situation as Ned Stark was in his mind, with just one big difference. Ned had already married Catelyn, before "fathering" a bastard son while on campaign. Robb hadn't yet married the Frey daughter. I think it not unlikely he did not also wanted to get himself in a similar situation as his father, being blamed by a Frey wife who would certainly be suspicious of hsi Snow bastard as the Snow would be born well before her children.

Anyway, I don't think it's that much of a coincidence that George wrote a scenario that is much alike the one Robb, Cat and Jon believe to have occurred during RR for Ned to bring back Jon Snow, except Robb was only promised and therefore in his mind believed he could make a better choice than his father was at liberty to make.

However jeyne could have used moon tea and the whole scenerio would be avoided. That is why I think it is a jump to think like that… And even if that was true robb could have waited to be sure she was pregnant before marrying her. 

If we add the facts there is no reason to believe robb married because he was afraif that jeyne was pregnant and wanted to avoid a jon snow scenario. There isn t a single proof to suport that in the text.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, divica said:

However jeyne could have used moon tea and the whole scenerio would be avoided. That is why I think it is a jump to think like that… And even if that was true robb could have waited to be sure she was pregnant before marrying her. 

If we add the facts there is no reason to believe robb married because he was afraif that jeyne was pregnant and wanted to avoid a jon snow scenario. There isn t a single proof to suport that in the text.

Because we don't have Robb's POV. It's speculative, for sure. But we do know however that Robb didn't like Catelyn's treatment of Jon either.

And if Robb feels he's honor bound to wed Jeyne Westerling because he took her virginity and slept with her, then you can argue "Robb could have asked her to take moon tea" all you want, but that sounds really out of character then. If he felt so honor-bound to a girl he wasn't in love with, then it's far more realistic to speculate that avoiding a Snow situation with a Frey wife was part of his "honor-bound" motivation, than it is to speculate "pfff, he could have just told her to use moon tea".

[divica]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because we don't have Robb's POV. It's speculative, for sure. But we do know however that Robb didn't like Catelyn's treatment of Jon either.

And if Robb feels he's honor bound to wed Jeyne Westerling because he took her virginity and slept with her, then you can argue "Robb could have asked her to take moon tea" all you want, but that sounds really out of character then. If he felt so honor-bound to a girl he wasn't in love with, then it's far more realistic to speculate that avoiding a Snow situation with a Frey wife was part of his "honor-bound" motivation, than it is to speculate "pfff, he could have just told her to use moon tea".

But the facts is that when he explained himself to his mother he didn t mention anything about being married because he was worried about a snow problem. We don t even know if he doesn t have a son with some whore he doesn t know about… Without some kind of evidence it is kind of pointless to debate these things...